C-130 TOLD Calculator

[HerkPerfMan]

For the past few months, I have been developing a PC-based Takeoff and Landing Data (TOLD) calculator for the C-130, with an iPad version also in the works. We call it "preTOLD" and you can find more information, including current features and screenshots, at our website: https://www.elitetest...e-and-services/

At this point, we have a prototype completed for the C-130J and are seeking feedback from the pilot and mission planning community on the user interface design and functionality. Specifically, I'm interested to know which features are essential and who would use them, but any other insights are certainly welcome. We are also offering a pilot training course covering the finer points of TOLD planning and the associated performance data to enhance situational awareness and improve flight safety.

Please take a look around the website and reply with any comments, questions, or criticisms. PM works too and my email is listed on the website along with details of my C-130 background.

Thanks, Kevin H.

[LockheedFix]

Looks awesome, man. I'd love to have that on my iphone. I was hoping you'd have a brake energy calculator on there since that's one thing I've aways wondered why they didn't incorporate it into the CNI-MU.

[theat6bisasham]

Two questions which I've been presented with regards to a similar venture:

#1) How did you get the rights to use the formulas/reverse engineered charts/etc from lockheed? Boeing for example says they own the 'math' that makes up the -1-1 for their aircraft. If you use their data without paying, they reserve the right to sue...

#2) How do you deal with the massive liability?

Edited October 10, 2013 by theat6bisasham

[Bronco130]

Two questions which I've been presented with regards to a similar venture:

#1) How did you get the rights to use the formulas/reverse engineered charts/etc from lockheed? Boeing for example says they own the 'math' that makes up the -1-1 for their aircraft. If you use their data without paying, they reserve the right to sue...

#2) How do you deal with the massive liability?

Sadly good questions.. as a J-driver I would use it you can survive the wrath..

[HerkPerfMan]

For starters, you could change the J to an H.

We're starting with the J and plan to work on the H next, if we get some traction.

Looks awesome, man. I'd love to have that on my iphone. I was hoping you'd have a brake energy calculator on there since that's one thing I've aways wondered why they didn't incorporate it into the CNI-MU.

Brake energy data are included for landing and we are exploring the addition of a tool to calculate brake energy for aborts and quickturns. I don't know why a Brake Temperature Monitoring System (BTMS) wasn't added to the J; it is not new technology and would certainly reduce the 60-minute minimum cooling times.

Also, we have incorporated fixes for the mitigations currently required for Block 6.0.

Two questions which I've been presented with regards to a similar venture:

#1) How did you get the rights to use the formulas/reverse engineered charts/etc from lockheed? Boeing for example says they own the 'math' that makes up the -1-1 for their aircraft. If you use their data without paying, they reserve the right to sue...

#2) How do you deal with the massive liability?

Sadly good questions.. as a J-driver I would use it you can survive the wrath..

Indeed, these are both big issues we are currently tackling. Definitely some gray areas and I'm just an engineer but here is my take: The software and methodology (the "math") that Lockheed uses to develop the performance charts (-1-1) are proprietary, but I don't need that. I only need the resulting scheduled data/printed charts. Again, Lockheed owns the copyright but operators (USAF, USMC, USCG) can release their publications to other contractors. Another thing worth noting is that the definition and structure of flight manual data is governed by DOD standards/regulations which are publicly available (MIL-DTL-7700, MIL-STD-3013). I'm no lawyer, just a lowly engineer, but I think any OEM would have a tough time asserting ownership over methods and procedures that are "industry standard" and in the public domain.

As for liability: On the J, the Mission Computer (MC) currently hosts a DO-178 Level A-certified version of TOLD which we are not trying to replace. We are solving the problem of accessibility by providing "advisory data." Our goal is to make preTOLD as close to MC TOLD as possible, but in the event of a conflict, MC TOLD is still gospel.

Definitely some gray areas but, needless to say, I'm working several angles on this.

[JarheadBoom]

Indeed, these are both big issues we are currently tackling. Definitely some gray areas and I'm just an engineer but here is my take: The software and methodology (the "math") that Lockheed uses to develop the performance charts (-1-1) are proprietary, but I don't need that. I only need the resulting scheduled data/printed charts. Again, Lockheed owns the copyright but operators (USAF, USMC, USCG) can release their publications to other contractors. Another thing worth noting is that the definition and structure of flight manual data is governed by DOD standards/regulations which are publicly available (MIL-DTL-7700, MIL-STD-3013). I'm no lawyer, just a lowly engineer, but I think any OEM would have a tough time asserting ownership over methods and procedures that are "industry standard" and in the public domain.

As for liability: On the J, the Mission Computer (MC) currently hosts a DO-178 Level A-certified version of TOLD which we are not trying to replace. We are solving the problem of accessibility by providing "advisory data." Our goal is to make preTOLD as close to MC TOLD as possible, but in the event of a conflict, MC TOLD is still gospel.

Definitely some gray areas but, needless to say, I'm working several angles on this.

Serious question: Have you considered ITAR?

[osulax05]

This would def be a nice tool to have for (quickly &accurately) planning max load in/out of an LZ during mission planning instead of at the airplane.

[HerkPerfMan]

Serious question: Have you considered ITAR?

Yes, and our company is registered with DDTC. We are currently targeting the US market, but a Letter of Intent from a foreign customer and access to their tech pubs would allow us to apply for an Export License.

[JarheadBoom]

Yes, and our company is registered with DDTC. We are currently targeting the US market, but a Letter of Intent from a foreign customer and access to their tech pubs would allow us to apply for an Export License.

Nice.

Thanks to P&WC's oops a few years back with China, I am way more familiar with ITAR than I ever wanted to be (I work the .civ side of an OEM of both .civ and .mil aircraft).

Back to my own lane now...

[Steve Davies]

Definitely some gray areas but, needless to say, I'm working several angles on this.

A word of warning: Lockheed Martin and now threatening publishers with legal action for even using MDS designations (even though they I am pretty sure it's the customer's designation, not theirs). So, if I write a book about the F-16, LockMart want me to pay to write 'F-16'. True story.

Anyway, the point is that you really need to think more broadly about the intellectual property that you may or may not be using. If LockMart are consistent with their money grabbing approach, you're not going to be able to use C-130J on your product, for example...

[HerkPerfMan]

If LockMart are consistent with their money grabbing approach, you're not going to be able to use C-130J on your product, for example...

Thanks for the heads up, I hadn't even considered whether I could use the name, though I'm certainly not the only one using the military designations. LM has some interesting ideas about what it does and does not own...

[HerkPerfMan]

The initial version of our C-130J TOLD calculator (preTOLD) is designed to run on Windows-based laptops and tablets, but we are also working on an iPad version. I've been reading a lot lately about the adoption of iPads within USAF and am curious about the user experience so far.

How are they being utilized so far and what is the state of the configuration/app distribution infrastructure?

What sort of flight planning applications are available?

Are other services also planning to adopt iPads for flight planning?

[Lord Ratner]

The initial version of our C-130J TOLD calculator (preTOLD) is designed to run on Windows-based laptops and tablets, but we are also working on an iPad version. I've been reading a lot lately about the adoption of iPads within USAF and am curious about the user experience so far. How are they being utilized so far and what is the state of the configuration/app distribution infrastructure? What sort of flight planning applications are available? Are other services also planning to adopt iPads for flight planning?

Poorly, poor, bare bones, none, don't know.

In the tanker, you have one app for looking at pubs, and one for looking at approach plates. The pubs app is tolerable (pretty sure its a commercial app), and the FLIP app is garbage (made specifically for the govt). Everything else is completely locked down. The iPad itself is terrible for FLIP in my opinion. Too big, too heavy, and too bright. A kindle with the integrated light (or any e-ink type display) would be cheaper, lighter, and easier to read on final.

[fastnumber15]

Poorly, poor, bare bones, none, don't know.

In the tanker, you have one app for looking at pubs, and one for looking at approach plates. The pubs app is tolerable (pretty sure its a commercial app), and the FLIP app is garbage (made specifically for the govt). Everything else is completely locked down. The iPad itself is terrible for FLIP in my opinion. Too big, too heavy, and too bright. A kindle with the integrated light (or any e-ink type display) would be cheaper, lighter, and easier to read on final.

The iPad itself as an EFB isn't completely terrible. You can turn the FLIP on night mode and it isn't bright at all. Works fine on NVGs. I would love to see a program like this on the iPad but AMC has enough trouble just keeping up with far superior programs like Foreflight. I think if the biggest problem is having to switch between one app for pubs and one for plates, then were doing pretty good all things considered. Still better than having to pull out a pub, find what your looking for, and have an approach plate open. The technology to use facetime etc is being toyed around with at AMC already. They like the idea of wifi updates, facetime with maint home-station to help solve issues. If it were me I would pursue the iPad venue regardless because I doubt AMC is going to change at this point.

[Azimuth]

The iPad Mini would be perfect for FLIP.

[HerkPerfMan]

It sounds like the iPads are essentially being used as e-readers at this point. Hopefully USAF recognizes the potential of them as a comprehensive EFB once the configuration control and distribution infrastructure matures. They are very popular in the general aviation community and have been adopted by some major airlines. Though I saw Delta opted for the new Microsoft Surface.

The iPad Mini would be perfect for FLIP.

AMC has been experimenting with the mini on the C-21, at least. https://www.bnd.com/2013/07/07/2686018/goodbye-paper-maps-and-charts.html

[Ravens52]

The KC-10 is currently using iPad minis with phaero and good reader enabled. We are using the kneeboard or window harness for the flip. It's an whole new world using the mini. Great product. The Booms currently have a program built in for form f's, e-told for the iPad should be just around the corner. If all goes well each MWS should have functional EFBs and the apps in the next few years...

It's getting around comm and politics to get the products we need.

[HerkPerfMan]

People and politics are always the biggest obstacles. It also seems that the various USAF commands (AMC, AFRC, AETC, AFSOC, etc.) do not have a unified strategy for adopting EFBs; everyone is seeking their own solutions.

Is AMC actively working on an e-told app for the KC-10 or any other tanker/airlift systems? I know there are weight-and-balance (form f) apps for some platforms but I haven't heard about any e-told or other performance calculation apps.

[HerkPerfMan]

After attending the C-130 Hercules Operators Council (HOC) last week and conducting some more market research, I'm planning to start work on a version of preTOLD for the C-130H. The big problem I see is that there are so many variants with different pubs (C-130H, MC-130H, C-130T, KC-130T, KC-130T-30, etc.)

Anyone know where a civilian can request a copy of the USAF H tech pubs (T.O. 1C-130H-1-1)?

Have any pilots or flight engineers used any other eTOLD system for the H?

[JarheadBoom]

People and politics are always the biggest obstacles. It also seems that the various USAF commands (AMC, AFRC, AETC, AFSOC, etc.) do not have a unified strategy for adopting EFBs; everyone is seeking their own solutions.

Is AMC actively working on an e-told app for the KC-10 or any other tanker/airlift systems? I know there are weight-and-balance (form f) apps for some platforms but I haven't heard about any e-told or other performance calculation apps.

Hell, even within the same community we (McGuire vs. Travis) don't have the same strategy for adopting EFBs.

Supposedly an eTOLD app is in the works for the KC-10. However, they just recently released (or are about to release) the latest and greatest eTOLD for the mission laptops. The handout I saw in Dhafra addressing it had nearly three pages of exceptions that invalidated the eTOLD, requiring the FE to do manual TOLD... what's the point of an eTOLD calculator that has a larger number of invalid data scenarios than valid data scenarios?

[HerkPerfMan]

Hell, even within the same community we (McGuire vs. Travis) don't have the same strategy for adopting EFBs.

Supposedly an eTOLD app is in the works for the KC-10. However, they just recently released (or are about to release) the latest and greatest eTOLD for the mission laptops. The handout I saw in Dhafra addressing it had nearly three pages of exceptions that invalidated the eTOLD, requiring the FE to do manual TOLD... what's the point of an eTOLD calculator that has a larger number of invalid data scenarios than valid data scenarios?

You're exactly right...eTOLD is pretty much useless if you have to verify all the results by hand or mitigate software errors. That approach doesn't reduce workload or increase the accuracy of the results, it actually creates more confusion and distances the pilot and/or FE from the actual planning process.

I think a lack of TOLD technical expertise in the organizations/companies that develop eTOLD is to blame for a lot of the discrepancies. They are software engineers working to a set of requirements without a real understanding of how it is supposed to work or how it will be used. That's the differentiator I'm bringing to the table along with being cheaper, faster, and more responsive.

[HerkPerfMan]

I've been hard at work on a C-130H version of preTOLD and making some updates to our website, including a downloadable brochure with screenshots and other information. The initial C-130H version is based on USAF data and procedures (TO 1C-130H-1-1) and will include the familiar TOLD Card format as an output/export option. Plan to have the demo app ready in January/February 2014.

To help with the remaining development effort, I have created a short survey (4 easy questions) that I hope some of you will take the time to complete. I'm interested in finding out the no-kidding, most important requirements for eTOLD from the crew perspective, so please provide any comments or suggestions on features, functionality, displays, etc. Thanks in advance for your time and feedback!

[HerkPerfMan]

Well, gearpig, your dream has come true and I've completed the first edition of C-130H preTOLD for PC and iPad. So far, the PC version is up and running for most C-130H variants and I have some screenshots on our website. The iPad version, which completes and displays a TOLD Card, will be finished over the weekend. I'll also be attending the AATTC Symposium in St. Joseph, MO, next week to display and demo the apps.

Please check it out and send in your first impressions, questions, comments, suggestions, and/or complaints about our eTOLD solution. If you want more specific info, please send in a request or PM me. My direct email address is also available on the website. Thanks again and I look forward to hearing feedback from everyone!

[HerkPerfMan]

iPad screenshot is up here. Also, TOLD Card generation (in pdf format) has been added to the PC version as well.

If anyone is interested scheduling an on-line demo with your squadron, please send a PM or email me.

[Champ Kind]

Any updates? Is there a C-130J app yet?