The USAF Safety Process

[ThreeHoler]

The current SE culture pisses me off. Any time someone asked me for info that was useful to them...I got it to them. I also tried to spot trends and pass that information to the squadrons.

Even though I'm just a schlub with AFSAS access...I try to get people the stuff they need to read so they can learn.

Shame on our current SE bubbas.

Drunk rant off.

[SurelySerious]

It's easier to access SCI than get Safety to let you see an SIB.

[Hueypilot]

I bet few if any of you MC-12 bubbas knew about previous MC-12 loss of control incidents...and that's sad. I've personally worked two previous and similar mishaps, one was an MC-12 and the other an IqAF ISR King Air 350 (flown by a US pilot) that's nearly identical to the MC-12. I wont go into details for sake of OPSEC/privilege reasond, but it doesn't appear the SIB process did its job in preventing this fatal accident.

I lay most of the blame squarely on leadership and the current culture within Wing Safety shops. Leadership should notice trends and ensure these things are briefed extensively, and not let their deployed crews get buried in queep. FSOs need to stop treating SIB findings like Cosmic Top Secret info and locking them away in their offices. They should allow everyone to come up to Wg/SE and read the report, and it should be briefed often.

[JS]

They should allow everyone to come up to Wg/SE and read the report, and it should be briefed often.

Amen. I was talking to a guy in the squadron the other day and we had to scour the internet for articles on the accident to get a feel for what happened and how to prevent future incidents. Oh, and he happened to have been an MC-12 guy who was there when this accident happened, and he had no clue with regards to the SIB information that came out recently.

[FlyinGrunt]

Agree with all. If you have wings on your chest, you have a need to know about any mishap info - and whenever we get briefed about anything, I make a point to pull some newer LTs/Airmen aside and point out the "there's how that could have been us" bits.

We need to get out of our narrow MDS lanes in order to relate mishap factors to our own community, and I also think the current SE culture makes that tough. However, after the discussion of questionable use of SIB data in other threads in, say, AMC . . . I can understand how that fight can be difficult.

Liquid: props to you, sir, for your work-around with that bootleg copy of the video. I think I can speak for most aircrew that we are inspired and motivated when our leadership finds ways to get the job done and say yes rather than just saying why something can't be done.

[Skitzo]

I remember asking for the Sitka crash brief from my squadron safety officer. Of course the safety officer had no clue as to why it would be beneficial to my community but after the brief it was abundantly clear how our small plane community could learn a thing or two with greater knowledge. Proof of this was a CT line I flew where I flew a pretty aggressive tactical approach. My co pilot asked if I had seen the very brief I requested to be shown to the squadron. I told the young co I had and that I had flown the approach in accordance with all parameters in the vol 3. We had a lengthy discussion about the vol 3 and other -1 limitations.

Case in point, a brief that had nothing to do with the plane we fly stimulated a co enough to think about how we do business. I think that is a victory.

I asked for the recent -135 mishap from a wing safety person who had to fight the establishment in order to present it.

After the last 9 years as a rated aviator I don't understand the close hold nature MAJCOMS have with regard to incidents.

If someone bent an aircraft or in the worst case scenario there was a loss of life I don't understand why we all don't at least talk about it

Edited November 1, 2013 by Skitzo

[xaarman]

I am kinda relieved that it's not just my safety office (two bases) that are full of this bafoonery - but it definitely indicates a larger issue at hand. It's something that the infrastructure is fully set up for, and nothing but bad leadership is keeping us from becoming better, safer, more informed Aviators.

[Hueypilot]

I'm chief of safety for my wing. If any aircrew member walks into my unit wanting to know what happened on a particular mishap, I'll gladly let them read the report. Standard reminders of privilege apply and the report itself doesn't leave the office, but you are free to find out the causes and recommendations of any SIB. Every safety shop should operate that way.

[Liquid]

I'm chief of safety for my wing. If any aircrew member walks into my unit wanting to know what happened on a particular mishap, I'll gladly let them read the report. Standard reminders of privilege apply and the report itself doesn't leave the office, but you are free to find out the causes and recommendations of any SIB. Every safety shop should operate that way.

Fail. The powerpoint presentation given by the board president to the convening authority, with the accompanying CVR and simulator recreation, is a much more effective training tool than the written report. We should have access to that SIB data and analysis, while ensuring we protect the privileged info.

[Hueypilot]

Fail. The powerpoint presentation given by the board president to the convening authority, with the accompanying CVR and simulator recreation, is a much more effective training tool than the written report. We should have access to that SIB data and analysis, while ensuring we protect the privileged info.

WTF? Are you on some kind of war path tonight? The PowerPoint/videos and other stuff like that requires tab data access and I can't just pull that up just because some pilot shows up in my office. I'd be more than happy to brief it during a safety presentation because including any type of info aside from the written report requires preparation (and approval from AFSEC to get the data).

Unlike many SE offices that won't even show you an AFSAS report without some kind of senior leader approval, I'll gladly dig up what I can if you come by my office. But producing the convening authority PowerPoint and videos last second on demand is unreasonable.

[stract]

especially when you only get tab access for a specified period of time (like 2 weeks or a month). I've been lucky recently getting my tab access requests granted...there's been a resent change in AFSEC/JA personnel, and the new individual seems to be a little more willing to understand and grant access. As a Chief of Flight Safety, I too will gladly let folks read through a final message from AFSAS. I'm not a fan of playing "I have a secret" when there is so much to learn from others mistakes. Just briefed the Kadena H-60 Class A to a room full of A-10 pilots and C-130 aircrew, and there were takeaways for all in attendance.

Edited November 1, 2013 by stract

[mcbush]

That's the heart of the problem right there. It's not just safety either - appearances seems to matter more in today's AF than performance, mission accomplishment, etc.

[Fuzz]

Fail. The powerpoint presentation given by the board president to the convening authority, with the accompanying CVR and simulator recreation, is a much more effective training tool than the written report. We should have access to that SIB data and analysis, while ensuring we protect the privileged info.

Well here you go, you want to fix something that directly impacts mission employment here's an easy kill, granted that's if you aren't too busy hunting the puzzle palace cubicles for vacation pictures or desecrating actual AF heritage.

[JS]

WTF? Are you on some kind of war path tonight? The PowerPoint/videos and other stuff like that requires tab data access and I can't just pull that up just because some pilot shows up in my office. I'd be more than happy to brief it during a safety presentation because including any type of info aside from the written report requires preparation (and approval from AFSEC to get the data).

Unlike many SE offices that won't even show you an AFSAS report without some kind of senior leader approval, I'll gladly dig up what I can if you come by my office. But producing the convening authority PowerPoint and videos last second on demand is unreasonable.

Well, I think your post sums up what is wrong with the Safety culture and the entire Safety process in the AF. Not blaming you, but the system is broke if all you can give a dude access to is a 69 96 page rambling report riddled with so much minutiae that it totally defeats the purpose of stopping by the safety office to learn from the accident in the first place. A nice product to give the average dude would be a very condensed version of the SIB, along with videos/animations/PPTs, etc. But obviously that takes an act of God, and thus the ignorance of other's accidents will continue, along with the future preventable fatal accidents.

Edited November 2, 2013 by JS

[Liquid]

Well here you go, you want to fix something that directly impacts mission employment here's an easy kill, granted that's if you aren't too busy hunting the puzzle palace cubicles for vacation pictures or desecrating actual AF heritage.

I don't work at the puzzle palace, hunt pictures or desecrate AF heritage. #### you and your "here you go" bullshit. I am doing something about this.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Liquid

[matmacwc]

Fail. The powerpoint presentation given by the board president to the convening authority, with the accompanying CVR and simulator recreation, is a much more effective training tool than the written report. We should have access to that SIB data and analysis, while ensuring we protect the privileged info.

You know, he is correct.

[Hueypilot]

I wish I could give crews the PowerPoint presentations and videos because I would. But as a WG/Chief of Safety I have no ownership of those products. AFSEC controls them and I have to get a "mother may I" request to do so...and I've had those be denied too.

I'm not saying the system isn't broke, I was saying that as a Ch of Safety I'll do whatever I can to help our crews. But having Liquid slam ME as if a failure over something that's well out of my hands to fix is bullshit.

It's a bit like telling a Sq/CC that he's a failure because he won't fix how the AF funds the FHP...our of his hands. Ditto with the special products for safety...once the SIB wraps up that stuff becomes the sole property of people much higher than me. And to tll you the truth, it's primarily AF/JA and AFSEC/JA driving that.

[sputnik]

Well, I think your post sums up what is wrong with the Safety culture and the entire Safety process in the AF. Not blaming you, but the system is broke if all you can give a dude access to is a 69 96 page rambling report riddled with so much minutiae that it totally defeats the purpose of stopping by the safety office to learn from the accident in the first place. A nice product to give the average dude would be a very condensed version of the SIB, along with videos/animations/PPTs, etc. But obviously that takes an act of God, and thus the ignorance of other's accidents will continue, along with the future preventable fatal accidents.

Let's not get too over the top. It should be easier to get the animations, I'm not entirely sure why they are so hard to get, but a I do know a large part of it is fear that some idiot will post them on youtube (didn't that happen with Dover C5?). While the videos are good, they aren't standalone products. The accompanying powerpoints usually have about as many words as the full report.

If you want "a very condensed version of the SIB," don't they still post Blue 4 news? If you can't read a full report, don't be pissed off at AF/SE, be pissed off at your high school. I agree animations should be more accessible, but disagree entirely that you can't get a full understanding from the AFSAS report. I cannot fathom a safety office that wouldn't let you read them, fortunately I haven't experienced such idiocy.

[Liquid]

I wish I could give crews the PowerPoint presentations and videos because I would. But as a WG/Chief of Safety I have no ownership of those products. AFSEC controls them and I have to get a "mother may I" request to do so...and I've had those be denied too.

I'm not saying the system isn't broke, I was saying that as a Ch of Safety I'll do whatever I can to help our crews. But having Liquid slam ME as if a failure over something that's well out of my hands to fix is bullshit.

It's a bit like telling a Sq/CC that he's a failure because he won't fix how the AF funds the FHP...our of his hands. Ditto with the special products for safety...once the SIB wraps up that stuff becomes the sole property of people much higher than me. And to tll you the truth, it's primarily AF/JA and AFSEC/JA driving that.

Sorry dude, I shouldn't have slammed you. It is the AFSEC and MAJCOM/SE policies that prevent you and other safety shops from getting the video and ppt that have failed. Hopefully we will get some traction next week at the safety conference.

[TLAR]

Hopefully we will get some traction next week at the safety conference.

So, can someone print out this thread and bring it to the conference? I feel like a lot of the higher ups are completely oblivious. (serious request)

[Liquid]

So, can someone print out this thread and bring it to the conference? I feel like a lot of the higher ups are completely oblivious. (serious request)

We are bringing this exact conversation to the conference. I agree, too many are oblivious. If bringing it up at the conference doesn't work, this issue will be brought up directly to the chief. Guaranteed.

[Fuzz]

I don't work at the puzzle palace, hunt pictures or desecrate AF heritage. #### you and your "here you go" bullshit. I am doing something about this.

I apologize mixed you up with General Chang, and good I'm honestly glad you are working on this.

[Liquid]

I apologize mixed you up with General Chang, and good I'm honestly glad you are working on this.

No sweat, thanks. It is easy to get us mixed up.

[contraildash]

I don't understand how we push this safety culture, yet we don't readily share safety information to everyone. The 'I have a secret' culture in many safety offices is rotten. Glad someone is bringing this up on a higher level.

Anyone read Approach magazine? Why doesn't the AF have something like that?

[JS]

The 'I have a secret' culture in many safety offices is rotten.

Bingo. I think that is the problem. Speaking of which, I have bitched about the crappy safety system/culture in a few posts but haven't made any constructive suggestions, so here goes:

1. Get something out to the community in a timely freaking manner. The DVR/DFD are decoded pretty quickly, and we generally have a good idea of what the hell happened within 48 hours or so. Isn't there a preliminary safety message put out that soon anyway? The NTSB gets a basic report out pretty early, and it is usually about 95% accurate after the final report comes out. And before anyone says "things can change," then I say so what. Then we can change what we learned if the final report is that much different from the initial one.

It juts chaps my ass that I know a guy who got in theater after Independence 08 happened, and now that he is back stateside in his old airframe, he still had no clue as to what happened, primarily because the SIB/AIB came out after he freaking tour was over. How does a guy complete an entire tour in an airframe and not have access to the lessons learned from a series of fatal crashes from before his tour??? Major fail on timeliness in the safety community.

2. Give everyone with access to the portal access to safety reports. Maybe a semi-sanitized version. I should be able to access these lessons from my hotel room, downrange, or wherever. I shouldn't have to go back to my home unit and then beg and plead with the safety office, only to be denied about 50% of the time anyway by the "I have a secret" weenies. I just don't get how it will somehow hurt operations, safety, or privilege by allowing the broader community to have access to safety reports. NTSB reports are not only open to the flying community, but they are open to anyone with an internet connection.

3. As I mentioned before, have a condensed, user friendly document, PPT, and animation on said safety portal, available to anyone with a CAC card. Someone mentioned how the C-5 animation was leaked out and how bad that was, and how we have to be careful with "raw data" like that without the safety guys there to "interpret" it for us. I don't know about you guys, but seeing that stand-alone "raw data," is enough to put the fear of CRM-God into any dude with a set of wings on his chest. No interpretation from the "I have a secret" guys is necessary there.