Study: Nuclear Force Feeling 'Burnout' from Work

[Colokent]

"I guess the question becomes.....is the system safe enough to remain on line?" <--- Weapon system safety is not the issue-- so I'm not understanding the comment-- would love to understand the point you are trying to make.

"You would think that since the consequences of an "incident" could be so serious, the Chief of staff would be camped out in NODAK until the question is decided." <-- You'd think so, wouldn't you?

".............................................Lt. get my stars warmed up And hike up that skirt............................." <-- I have NO clue what this has to do with anything....

Do elaborate...

K

Dismantle the Triad. Remove the bombers, downsize the silos. Subs are a go.

Done. 6900 less people on PRP, the morale of entire cities just went up by orders of magnitude. Next....

Unfortunately, this is not an issue that's going to get solved anytime soon...it's not sexy, it doesn't have a stick, you can't solve it by bragging or shooting your watch down, and until the SECDEF is threatened with getting $hitcanned if it's not corrected ASAP, there won't be a solution-- this is a problem that transcneds the AF, although we've stepped on our crank more than the other services in this mission.

K

Edited January 14, 2014 by Colokent

[Herk Driver]

WOPR or SkyNet and send all the missile dudes home.

[Colokent]

Ouch. Not exactly strategic level thinking...not headed to SDE, I take it.

Anyway, $hit-hot LAPES avitar though...I like that...takes me back to my MAPS days...no better airframe to be associated with than -130s...

K

Edited January 14, 2014 by Colokent

[Jaded]

Ouch. Not exactly strategic-level thinking...not headed to SDE, I take it.

Your implication being that if he was going to SDE he would be advocating more for the status quo?

[Colokent]

My implication being that it sounded like a lack of familiarity with current mission requirements in that area...

K

[Herk Driver]

Ouch.

Anyway, $hit-hot LAPES avitar though...I like that...takes me back to my MAPS days...no better airframe to be associated with than -130s...

K

Was going for "innovation" rather than strategic thinking

[Colokent]

Well, okay...they could certainly use some...A huge problem in that career field is that playing the old Cold War rhetoric doesn't work anymore...and that was something I saw leadership in that field unable to cope with. Today's ICBM crewforce didn't grow up with the Commie Menace...so that's an empty concept for motivation

I believe if anything, we better come up with a more relevant rationale for these systems if we're going to keep them.

K

Edited January 14, 2014 by Colokent

[HU&W]

37 under investigation now. link

[zach braff]

37 under investigation now. link

Somebody get the tater tots and star wars decorations. Otherwise this will suck for the officers pulling extra duty to make up for these 37 taken off the red button.

[Breckey]

The missileers are being investigated for basically the same issue that struck UPT a few years back.

[panchbarnes]

Wonder why AF PAO is so proactive in promoting this scandal. They even had an article advertising the press briefing before it started.

From the pictures in the link, it look like Gen Welsh has a busted arm...

https://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/468806/34-icbm-launch-officers-implicated-in-cheating-probe.aspx

Edited January 16, 2014 by PanchBarnes

[Azimuth]

The missileers are being investigated for basically the same issue that struck UPT a few years back.

Except the test is probably classified.

[Alpharatz]

"I guess the question becomes.....is the system safe enough to remain on line?" <--- Weapon system safety is not the issue-- so I'm not understanding the comment-- would love to understand the point you are trying to make.

"You would think that since the consequences of an "incident" could be so serious, the Chief of staff would be camped out in NODAK until the question is decided." <-- You'd think so, wouldn't you?

".............................................Lt. get my stars warmed up And hike up that skirt............................." <-- I have NO clue what this has to do with anything....

Do elaborate...

K

Unfortunately, this is not an issue that's going to get solved anytime soon...it's not sexy, it doesn't have a stick, you can't solve it by bragging or shooting your watch down, and until the SECDEF is threatened with getting $hitcanned if it's not corrected ASAP, there won't be a solution-- this is a problem that transcneds the AF, although we've stepped on our crank more than the other services in this mission.

K

If I was the "SECDEF" (I love that talk) my reply would be " Is the system safe? Yes or NO?" answered in privacy of course. I have no idea what motivates your basic USAF general. But I am beginning to have grave doubts. I could care less if they want to chase some tail or get hooted up at a private party...but getting shined up and running your fat yap about serious "issues" with a major weapons system...in Moscow?? I get such a kick out of these hearings.....Four star...line of flunkies behind four star....flunkies behind flunkies ad infinitum...apparently not one of them willing to risk a straight answer. Anyway on with the show

.......you have to be at least a two star to understand the stars and skirt reference....sorry

[Champ Kind]

Made the NBC evening news tonight.

[akele]

It's the highlighted story on cnn.com as well.

It's going to be interesting how this is handled at the missile wings. Now is the time for their leadership to actually have a different approach to how to deal with this issue and not turn it into a witch hunt. One can only hope.

[Breckey]

Ha! He He. Ho-man. You're funny.

[akele]

Yeah, they are probably bringing them all in to retest on their day off…just like the study mentioned is about one of the number one things that piss off a missile guy.

[Colokent]

This isn't a particularly "new" situation..."Test intel" has pretty much always been out there in that career field-- largely because of some of the games played by the some of the instructors....meaning the tests tended (many, many years ago) to not reflect reality, but rather a concerted effort to play the "gotcha" game.

Here's the example I like to use, which is a very simplified example of the types of questions we had (obviously the actual subject areas were different!):

1. Everyone understands the need to dim your headlights for oncoming traffic at night (assuming they were on bright to begin with).

2. It is dark out and at 2123, a car approaches...Question: will you dim your lights for the car? (If you anwered yes, you're right)

3. At 2142, you note an oil light illuminate, and take corrective actions. At 2154, the light extiguishes.

4. At 2205, you recieve direction to change radio frequencies, after following the procedure, you accomplish that.

5. At 2217, another car approaches...Question: will you dim your lights for te car?

If you answered "yes" to question #5, you'd be wrong, because we never told you back in question #2 to put your lights back to bright.

Bottom line, in the real world (or the simulator), you'd know if your lights were on bright or not. So the question doesn't prove knowledge of the concept-- it's a built-in gotcha that wouldnt be seen in the real world.

Not saying these guys were right for cheating, but the fact that it happened is no revelation...it had been known to happen with some people "back in the day" (1980s)...

BTW, as a guy with 286 nuclear ICBM alerts, I don't buy the "Gen Y" whine that they are "burned out"...They've got a job to do, and they need a swift kick in the a$$-- probably the first they will have had in their overindulged young lives. Not saying leadership couldn't be enhanced/improved (or hasn't stepped on their cranks from time to time), but it's also healthy to remember that was also the full time excuse we had for "why things suck" back when I was a CGO too....we thought we were loads more brilliant than senior leadership...in some ways we were...in some ways we weren't. We too, tended not to think that we **just might** bear some responsibility for the way things were as well.

K

Edited January 16, 2014 by Colokent

[Guest]

https://www.pentagonchannel.mil/Video.aspx?videoid=319718

Interesting video clip shows Gen Welsh is either emotionally distraught by the news, or in pain from his arm. Are we killing this fine man with continued scandals? Let him do his assigned job instead of trying to resolve all these damn political fires. Full transcript available here: https://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=5352

Some highlights:

SECAF JAMES: [...] There was cheating that took place with respect to this particular test. Some officers did it. Others apparently knew about it, and it appears that they did nothing, or at least not enough, to stop it or to report it.

[...] all the members of the ICBM force will have been retested by the end of tomorrow on the test where the cheating appears to have occurred. [...] I already had it on my calendar to visit the ICBM forces early on, but I have moved that up, so I personally will be traveling out to visit Malmstrom, F.E. Warren in Wyoming, and Minot in North Dakota. I'll be doing this next week. In addition, General Welsh will be going out there next week. And Admiral Haney, the commander of Strategic Command, will also be visiting in the near term. So all of us together will be assessing the leadership and working with those on the ground to make sure that we have an effective ICBM force, not only right now today, but also going forward into the future. [...]

GEN WELSH: [...] the Office of Special Investigation found evidence that a missile launch officer at the 341st Missile Wing at Malmstrom Air Force Base electronically shared the answers [...] to monthly missile launch officer proficiency tests with 16 other officers. We subsequently approached the entire missile crew force at Malmstrom, and 17 other officers self-admitted to at least being aware of material that had been shared. We don't yet know how or if each of those officers used that material, but we do know that none of them reported the incident to their leadership. [...] This morning, the commander of Global Strike Command ordered a STRATCOM-validated proficiency test that the secretary mentioned be administered to all missile crew members and all three of our missile wings. As of an hour ago, 100 people had completed that test -- that's about 20 percent of our missile crew force -- 97 percent of them passed the test, and there were three failures. That 97 percent pass rate matches our historical averages. Testing of the entire crew force, as the boss said, will be completed by tomorrow afternoon, and we'll make the results available. [...] Secretary James and I will personally visit all of our missile bases that she mentioned next week to ensure that our airmen have no question about our expectations of those who perform this vital mission. [...]

Q: What rank are these people?

GEN WELSH: Jim, they're second lieutenant to captain.

[...]

GEN WELSH: In the last two months, we have replaced the commander of 20th Air Force, the commander of the three missile wings that all report to him, and the commander of Air Force Global Strike Command. [...]

FYI, 34 decerts of approx. 190 personnel in the AFSC is around 18% reduction in manpower availability. Pretty huge hit in one day.

Q: In the good, old days, SAC was an elite organization. Everybody involved, you know, was treated wonderfully by the American public. There were movies about them. Their mission was golden. Not so much today. You've got lieutenants and captains sitting out in the middle of nowhere. It's cold. There's not a whole lot to do. How do you maintain that sense of urgency, those rigorous standards day to day?

GEN WELSH: Well, Colin, I would say you do it the way we've been doing it. The standards haven't changed. We test them just as rigorously. The scores are available. We know how we perform with these evaluations. They still do the job well. They were sitting out in the middle of nowhere back in the days of SAC, as well, but there was a pride in the mission, because there was a focus on the mission. There was -- there was a feeling that the mission was critically important. We have to ensure that the people we have in this business understand that that mission remains critically important. And I believe that starts with the secretary and I. We are committed to making sure that our nuclear airmen understand how critical they are to everything that this nation stands for in terms of security posture, that they're critically important to the job of the United States Air Force. The nuclear mission has been our number-one priority -- very clearly our number-one -- stated that way for the last almost six years now. That's not going to change.

Q: Do you plan to change any procedures, try and re-jig things, make it more difficult to anticipate what's coming up?

GEN. WELSH: Clearly, testing -- training, education, test protocols, test proctoring procedures are all part of the look that the commanders of Global Strike Command and 20th Air Force and the wings are looking at as we speak. They discussed that briefly this morning with the secretary. They will present her recommendations during her visit. And we'll make adjustments in that regard.

SECAF JAMES: Can I add on one point to this, Colin? Again, part of the reason why I had intended anyway within the next few weeks -- but I'm going to do it now next week -- is to get at that very question and so that I can hear it and see it for myself, again, a fresh set of eyes and ears on the scene, to talk to these airmen and to assess that directly, because you hear various stories. You hear that morale is low. I've heard that morale is really quite high. I've heard that we have quality concerns about people. I'm also hearing that there are top-notch people. And my guess is, the truth is somewhere in between. But this is a force that needs attention. It is a top priority, and so as the chief said, we're going to give it that level of priority. And we come before you today, and we tell you some immediate corrective actions. I want to work on some -- call them midterm actions designed to address some of the issues you're talking about. But part of my fact-finding is going out and seeing and hearing and learning directly to help inform some of that.

I'm guessing these efforts to investigate and improve morale may have a slight, unintentional opposite effect on the otherwise extraordinarily high morale of our services' missile officers.

[Karl Hungus]

BTW, as a guy with 286 nuclear ICBM alerts, I don't buy the "Gen Y" whine that they are "burned out"...They've got a job to do, and they need a swift kick in the a$$-- probably the first they will have had in their overindulged young lives.

If washing out of UPT and getting sent to the shithole that is missiles didn't do it, what do you think will?

[Colokent]

If washing out of UPT and getting sent to the shithole that is missiles didn't do it, what do you think will?

Karl, I think you might have missed my point-- even if you wash out of UPT, just gracing everyone with your presence at the missile wing isn't "enough punishment"-- besides the fact that would not be a very professional attitude to show up with. Rather, you are expected to roll your sleeves up and learn the weapon system in IQT (the missile equivalent of UPT) and apply what you learn operationally at the wing-- it's like any other AFSC in that respect.

It is very true that strutting around like an arrogant dick (ie "FIGJAM syndrome") is not a part of ICBM culture, runs counter to the operational ethos, and will typically bring you unwanted attention and some wall-to-wall counseling REAL quick-- that crap is not a staple of being a 13N as it is in some other AFSCs. So you are probably right-- to some people, that would seem like a fate worse than death.

By the way-- very few ICBM crewmembers these days are UPT/CSO washouts.

As for it being a "shithole", to each to his own...

BTW--GREAT, sage observations, "deaddebate"...you hit the nail on the head...The Chief is in a tough place with all of this.

K

Edited January 16, 2014 by Colokent

[Day Man]

Here's the example I like to use, which is a very simplified example of the types of questions we had (obviously the actual subject areas were different!):

1. Everyone understands the need to dim your headlights for oncoming traffic at night (assuming they were on bright to begin with).

2. It is dark out and at 2123, a car approaches...Question: will you dim your lights for the car? (If you anwered yes, you're right)

3. At 2142, you note an oil light illuminate, and take corrective actions. At 2154, the light extiguishes.

4. At 2205, you recieve direction to change radio frequencies, after following the procedure, you accomplish that.

5. At 2217, another car approaches...Question: will you dim your lights for te car?

This sounds like a shitty question from a bathroom trivia book...testing for stupid "gotchas" is probably what influenced the "cooperation" to begin with. Test on the material they actually need to know, and treat them like officers with a real responsibility (because they are).

[BitteEinBit]

For f*ck's sake can we go a week without some stupid f*cking cheat/sex/drug scandal that should be dealt with at much lower levels and not in the media?!

Ok, we got it, the Air Force is a bunch of sex crazed, womanizing, doped-up, drunker than Russians, deserting, cheaters! What next!?!

All the good shit we do and a few f*cksticks get caught with BQZip's Mom and now we're all perverts!

[Colokent]

Can't disagree with either of your comments, "day man" or ""BitteEinBit"...

Instead of just being dealt with, everything is only a few mouseclicks away from being fodder for the media...Sometimes I wish ALGORE had never invented the internet...

K

[Guest]

https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/hearings/nominations-creedon-carson-laplante - Skip to 1:39:00 for discussion of missile officer scandal and morale concerns between Sen Kaine and Mrs. Creedon (nominee). Refreshingly honest opinion by the nominee.