What has 'improved' in the AF?

[sputnik]

....This wouldn't even be a discussion in the Army. I know, I know, we joined the AF to not deal with Army crap. I agree, but come on, just do the minimum to not be fat. That's not asking too much. Most of the time you can do that without even exercising.

You're right, this wouldn't be a discussion in the Army--they don't care about waist measurement. Beyond that, I was in the Army. You have no idea what you're talking about.

In general I agree we should present a fit image, we are after all in a quasi-military organization. That said, in the rank ordering of things that matter, a 32 in waist doesn't make the list. Pure style over substance.

[slackline]

You're right, this wouldn't be a discussion in the Army--they don't care about waist measurement. Beyond that, I was in the Army. You have no idea what you're talking about.

In general I agree we should present a fit image, we are after all in a quasi-military organization. That said, in the rank ordering of things that matter, a 32 in waist doesn't make the list. Pure style over substance.

Agreed, minus the no idea part. Father was Army, brother is, and quite a few good friends are. Who cares about the waist measurement! Pretty sure I've made my point a few times...

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[sputnik]

Fair enough. My point about having no idea--there are an enormous number of enormous soldiers. You don't have to spend much time on any post anywhere in the world to figure that out.

[Stitch]

...

....Be able to run to the BX and back without getting winded....

Run? Run? Why, is the food court about to close? If so, I gotta go...

[Seriously]

What are the exact points, in measurable units rounded to the nearest whole number, where a person transitions from your arbitrary subjective definition of acceptable to that of being out of shape, disgusting, and fat.

I have my own, I just want to make sure they're exactly the same as yours.

Yeah... we get it. It's a gray area, but you have to draw the line somewhere. The PT test isn't a perfect solution, but it serves its purpose: keeping AF members reasonably fit. As for the waste measurement, it should vary with height, but definitely shouldn't go away completely. Read the article below for more information on the health problems associated with increased mass in the abdominal area.

https://www.mayoclinic.com/health/belly-fat/MC00054

[JS]

So I guess this thread is the "does the PT test suck or not."

Anyway, another two improvements that I have seen in my years here:

- Utility uniforms that don't have to be pressed, ironed, and starched.

- Boots that don't have to be shined.

[slackline]

What are the exact points, in measurable units rounded to the nearest whole number, where a person transitions from your arbitrary subjective definition of acceptable to that of being out of shape, disgusting, and fat.

I have my own, I just want to make sure they're exactly the same as yours.

Don't go spouting ridiculous platitudes now. Waist measurement is a decent tool when done within reason. I'm no Dr. or exercise physiologist, so I'll leave the exact points, in measurable units rounded to the nearest whole number to them. Basic point is, we have to hold people to a standard. That standard needs to make sense. 32" waist doesn't make sense, so change it. I'm all for that, but they can't leave it at nothing for the moment.

I guess I'll just accept being out of touch with you guys on this point. We shouldn't accept out of shape people in the armed forces. Whether they're sitting behind a computer or not. I am 100% against the "everyone's a warrior" mindset, but that doesn't mean they get to look like bums in a uniform.

Whatever, keep railing against our people being in shape. Once again, and for the last time, I'll say it. That shape doesn't have to be marathon runner, just not round in the middle...

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[B.M.]

I hope our leaders are reading this thread and getting a solid grasp on what their aviators think are important. Things like uniforms, boots, and pt tests...

Glad you warriors have a solid perspective on what's important (Champ and JS excluded).

[135ASelect]

This is why we get laughed at. Our mission statement shouldn't be "fly, fight and win" or whatever it is TODAY, it should be "quibble over queep til you puke then quibble some more!" Quit bitching about pt tests and who's fat and why you don't think they look good in uniform. Get back to the fuc&ing topic!

[raimius]

I do like electronic pubs. Being able to do a search in a 300+ page document can be quite handy.

Getting rid of ASBC.

The CSAF at least makes some effort to keep mission focused and take care of people. I understand that that job probably has 100+ things competing for attention on any given day. So, he gets points there.

[Azimuth]

I lost not a single sortie because mx or anyone else was fat. I lost plenty because people didn't know how to do their job. I also saw a few chunky E7s who knew wtf they were doing and saved the day. Ergo, to me, the PT program/test is a solution in search of a problem.

Besides which, it came about long before the current CSAF assumed the job

Knew very little about him, but my impression was that he was an utterly humorless micro manager. Was I off the mark?

Nope, after seeing him speak a few times and interacting with him he is the definition of robot. Plus he's best buddies with the old AMC/CC which wasn't good.

A very huge majority of the Army and Navy are and will be sitting at computers their whole careers. Very small percentage do the actual grunt work.

One more time. I'm not pushing for a 32" waist. Just don't look like a bum in the uniform. Be able to run to the BX and back without getting winded. Simple things.

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You can also include all the sub 35" waist guys who can't do the min amount of pushups and sit-ups. They can get thrown out too.

[Dupe]

Back on topic: Jointness. The AF understands the other services much better than we did a decade ago. I feel I understand both the TTPs and culture of the other services much more than those in the pre-9/11 AF.

[Jaded]

Too bad we've forgotten our own TTPs in the meantime. Reference: NTISR.

[Dupe]

Too bad we've forgotten our own TTPs in the meantime. Reference: NTISR.

Sure... I hear that. We're not going to give the Army an in-lieu-of tasking to go defend the Tawain Straight or deliver combat effects to Beijing in a contested environment. Hell, standing up for air power cost both the SECAF and AF/CC their jobs.

That all said, I believe the O-4 MAAP Cell patch today can develop a coherent air plan that achieves overarching campaign objectives and spans the spectrum of conflict much more efficiently and effectively than his 90s-era counter parts.

[Jaded]

There are patches in the MAAP cell? I thought that that office was filled with KC-135 pilots holding "CAS/AI planner" job titles.

[Cell Dweller]

In my time, it wasn't the PT test that was the problem, it was the O-6 in my chain that thought it should be in OPRs. The #1/XX guy in my group was always, without exception, the guy with the highest PT test score, true story. From the working level perspective, were the #1/XX guys also the top contributors to the mission? Nope, but then again, we tried to work as a team, and rarely was #1/XX invested in that team.

BTW, another great thing that the current CSAF brought was preaching that the lean times were going to suck, and that we would deal with it as a team. I have not heard him say or read anything close to the "do more with less" crap that was the mantra previously. He's taken a practical approach, even if that guidance does not always trickle down to the lower levels.

[Cap-10]

There are patches in the MAAP cell? I thought that that office was filled with KC-135 pilots holding "CAS/AI planner" job titles.

I was a Chief of AI...MAAP Chief was a 11F Lt Col Patch...entire MAAP team were 11F's except for our ISR guy who was a prior U-2 guy.

Cap-10

[Jaded]

I was a Chief of AI...MAAP Chief was a 11F Lt Col Patch...entire MAAP team were 11F's except for our ISR guy who was a prior U-2 guy.

Cap-10

Is this recently? I made my comment based on what I observe currently in Korea. The guys in combat plans are good dudes, but not terribly well matched AFSC wise.

[AnimalMother]

For me, the Air Force improves everyday...because that's one day closer to separation.

[Cap-10]

Is this recently? I made my comment based on what I observe currently in Korea. The guys in combat plans are good dudes, but not terribly well matched AFSC wise.

I was on the ROK 08-09 and all of the billets were filled with AFSC's that jived with their job

MAAP Chief: F-16/F-117 Patch wearer

AI: F-15E

KI: F-16

OCA: F-15C

CAS: A-10

SPINS: F-15C

ATO: A-10

CPD/DO: F-15C

CPD/CC: B-52/B-1/B-2 O-6

Cap-10

[pawnman]

I haven't seen much improvement under our current CSAF. What I've seen is a game of political chicken played over and over again regarding the budget, extreme knee-jerk reactions to several accusations of sexual harassment, and a LOT of talk about taking care of our people while the DoD looks for ways to cut benefits, pay, and retirements.

I was excited about our new CSAF too, but I haven't seen a whole lot of change. At least now, wing leadership tells me they want to be "respectful of my time" before they task me last-minute with some queep-related data-gathering.

[B.M.]

Eat a dick. The title of the thread isn't "What's important?," it's "What's improved?" ...Do you want guys to just make shit up?

If leaders are reading this thread, they'll hopefully say "Holy shit....the only thing we've managed to improve is the trivial queep shit. Our (actual) warriors, when asked what's improved, can only come up with uniforms, boots, and pt tests. Damn!"

Eat it yourself. Every thread about what sucks/improved in the AF quickly derails into bitching about uniforms, pt tests, boots, master's degrees, and other bullshit. Those topics must be very important for everyone, since you all bitch about it so often.

If leaders are reading this thread they're most likely saying "Holy shit... our officers are a bunch of whiners who act like children. Our (supposed) warriors, when asked what's improved, can only come up with uniforms, boots, and pt tests, because that's all they care about. Damn!"

Edited November 27, 2013 by B.M.

[B.M.]

[quote name="HOSS" post="364678" timestamp="1385576802"

.... and speaking of which, what examples do you have to contribute? The irony of someone bitching and whining about bitching and whining isn't lost on me.

[Karl Hungus]

.... and speaking of which, what examples do you have to contribute? The irony of someone bitching and whining about bitching and whining isn't lost on me.

Pretty sure this dude is a boom. So that should answer your question.

Agreed that every community can find some small examples of improvement if they look hard enough. It is indeed troubling that the most promising CSAF in a decade is either unable or unwilling to fix some of the simple shit we like to bitch about on this site. Sorta ruins the whole "stay in, play the game, and one day you too can make a difference!!!!!1" argument we tend to hear from time to time. Still waiting on that vector we were promised in January 2013.

[BitteEinBit]

Ah yes, exactly the same... Good perspective.

DTS: Although it's not perfect, it's still better than spending two hours at finance for them to un-fu<k a voucher

VMPF: ^^ Same

Tricare Reserve Select

EPRs have a long way to go, but the current system is far better than the old one

More opportunities for E's to PCS, so shit assignments have less chance of becoming black holes

Dissolution of the EMTF

Downsizing of the CRWs

ILO?

I'm no longer confined to the chow hall if I want free grub during a UTA

If you want job specifics I can go on for a few more pages...

...so DTS, vMPF, org manning, and chow halls are important to you. Got it. Everyone has their own definition of what is wrong with the AF. I'll be honest, I don't hear a lot about people bitching about chow halls, but if that is important to you, I'll listen to you bitch about it without ragging your for it. If there are dudes out there who want to bitch about wasteful spending on worthless Master's degrees and PT tests I'll listen to that too because when you can change the small shit that bothers people, you can let them focus on the important shit that gets the mission done. What I do know is that you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time, but its ok, we'll survive. But if I can make 30% happy by addressing and fixing what some might consider petty issues and get a return of more productivity, then I'm happy with that.

KH, I agree with you about the small shit this CSAF seems to be unsuccessful in changing. I would say the problem is more because of the bigger fish he's currently frying but a lot has to do with the large cancer of leaders managers we keep promoting to upper middle management that refuse to ease the queep we keep bitching about. We already knew the queep culture we have molded since 2008ish would be hard to fix...but I have a feeling the attempt to fix it is there from the top, it's just that the cancer is just preventing it from getting to our level.

I guess the bottom line is that I can't really think of much that has improved for the Air Force outside of my organization...and that is sad.