CSO as First Choice?

[Thunder 15]

Hi, I'm currently a cadet at the Zoo with about three more semesters to go, so I apologize in advance for any ignorance.

I am ranked decently high enough to guarantee myself a pilot slot but would much rather be a CSO.

I would like to bounce off my rationale in hopes I don't screw myself over:

I do not really love flying and feel I do not have the "monkey skills" to rank high enough in UPT.

A lot of cadets are satisfied with flying anything, but I am really adamant on AFSOC platforms. My rationale is that I will be able to perform better in CSO training to hopefully get the aircraft I want. Just by browsing the track assignments for CSOs and UPT, I can gauge I have a better chance statistically to go AFSOC. I understand that the role of CSOs on certain aircraft is limited and job satisfaction maybe low, but I will motivate myself to perform well enough to not end up there.

If I elect to go towards CSO will I face a "glass ceiling" down the road?

I heard its hard to leave the AFSOC community, but would I still be able to pursue those foreign affairs jobs, etc?

I really appreciate any feedback, thank you!

[Dupe]

Feedback:

If you don't love flying, don't take a flying job (of any flavor). Earning flight pay means punching a 12-hour duty clock then hammering through DTS, OPRs, or other minutia on the back end. It's a lot of work for you to not love the flying aspect.

If you like flying and you're qualified to be a pilot, go be a pilot. Some platforms are less "monkey skills" and more big-picture operator... have that conversation with your IPs.

-A concerned CSO

[Thunder 15]

I should rephrase something. I like flying and being in the air, but I do not like piloting/ physically controlling the aircraft.

Also, I am pretty sure there is nothing inhibiting my pilot qualification as I am cleared for the eye, and neuropysch portions so far.

My only experience with actual flight is 19 hours with gliders, I was still not good enough to solo.

I plan on going to the local aero club next semester to try my hand on powered planes.

I may be naive, but I want the chance to "be in the fight" and not go into airlift, tankers, AWACS, etc.

[08Dawg]

Interesting story about "in the fight"...I had the same feeling in nav school. I wanted to go kick ass and take names. Many of my instructors were former B-52 guys who had all kinds of stories about raining hate in OEF and OIF. My Flt/CC was the lead nav on the night one CALCM strike. So, I wanted and got a Buff. Funny thing is, Buffs aren't "in the fight" anymore, at least as far as dropping ordnance on hajis goes. We go to Guam and do the deterrence thing. Look at the front page of CNN today, though, to see what kind of effects we produce. What I'm getting at is that "in the fight" is relative. I have buddies who fly RJs, tankers, EC-130s and AWACs who have been to the sandbox multiple times over and have air medals and deployment ribbons out the yingyang, and who bring effects to the fight in a very real way, but have never dropped a weapon in anger. In the fight doesn't always mean putting a JDAM through Abdul's bedroom window.

Edited November 27, 2013 by 08Dawg

[Dupe]

My only experience with actual flight is 19 hours with gliders, I was still not good enough to solo.

I plan on going to the local aero club next semester to try my hand on powered planes.

Dude, you are letting your glider experience psyche you out.

Go fly Cessnas or whatever. You'll suck at first. After every landing and maneuver ask "what could I have done better?"

[guineapigfury]

Dude, you are letting your glider experience psyche you out.

Go fly Cessnas or whatever. You'll suck at first. After every landing and maneuver ask "what could I have done better?"

This is good advice. Why did the flying go poorly? Is it a stick and rudder problem or are you behind the aircraft? You can learn the required motor skills with practice, especially if you get a little flying in on the side. If you can't mentally keep up, then you've probably correctly assessed that you won't make a good pilot. However, if your issue is just being unable to land (my UPT class lost 2 dudes for this), then also consider the 18x program. You don't have to land the plane, you'll get a decent chance at shooting, and you can be in AFSOC. Whatever you choose, good luck.

[Thunder 15]

I would say the problem is a little bit of both.

I couldn't land on my own; I had difficulties managing my air-brakes, rudder, and stick at the same time.

I thought about going down the RPA path because you're putting the heat on the bad guys, but what I did gain from soaring was appreciation for being in the air. Even if you don't directly engage in combat, you're still vital for the service. I want to support the special operators on the ground by either giving them firepower or taking them where they have to go.

I would rather be flying aboard an AC/MC-130 or U-28 as a CSO rather than being the pilot-in-command of a C-17 or other platform.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Thunder 15

[drewpey]

To answer your original questions:

There is no glass ceiling in AFSOC for CSO types.

Leaving AFSOC is possible, but generally difficult unless your circumstances allow (ok manning in unit/crew position, on-board commander, etc.)

Good on your for choosing mission over everything else, but don't sell your stick-monkey potential short. You aren't born with piloting skills, they are taught.

If you really want to be a CSO, go for it...you can always change your mind later and apply for pilot training up until you are 30. It is not uncommon. You have a long road ahead of you and you could end up in a variety of airframes as a pilot or a CSO that you may not like. Work hard enough and don't be a douche and you can generally end up wherever you want.

Also a bit of advice: if you do end up going CSO keep it to yourself that you passed up a pilot slot. No one will believe you, and it can only hurt you.

Best of luck.

[Disco_Nav963]

Interesting story about "in the fight"...I had the same feeling in nav school. I wanted to go kick ass and take names. Many of my instructors were former B-52 guys who had all kinds of stories about raining hate in OEF and OIF. My Flt/CC was the lead nav on the night one CALCM strike. So, I wanted and got a Buff. Funny thing is, Buffs aren't "in the fight" anymore, at least as far as dropping ordnance on hajis goes. We go to Guam and do the deterrence thing. Look at the front page of CNN today, though, to see what kind of effects we produce. What I'm getting at is that "in the fight" is relative. I have buddies who fly RJs, tankers, EC-130s and AWACs who have been to the sandbox multiple times over and have air medals and deployment ribbons out the yingyang, and who bring effects to the fight in a very real way, but have never dropped a weapon in anger. In the fight doesn't always mean putting a JDAM through Abdul's bedroom window.

"2." Having nav'ed both E-3s and BUFFs, working slightly more arcane issues like optimizing AWACS orbit placement in OEF to minimize the UHF radio jamming we got from the Army's RCIED jammers on the ground (to better delivery our "non-kinetic effect") was a lot more fun than sitting in the shack (again), waiting for the klaxon. Simultaneously, don't decide based on what particular airframes are doing right now, because it will almost certainly be different by the time you finish UPT/UNT, IQT, and MQT (i.e. don't discount the BUFF, for instance, because of a few Sad Pandas that can't imagine the BUFF in combat just because they've never seen it; when I got to E-3s a lot of excessively-family-oriented people had picked AWACS because it wasn't deploying--we were in a ~3 year "reconstitution" period or whatever they called it--and sure enough the community started going to the desert again about the time I was starting IQT). Weigh in your mind the whole spectrum of that MDS's missions, potential locations, and crewforce morale (which you'll only learn by asking people).

I was an oddball who put Nav and ABM as #1 and #2 on my dreamsheet in ROTC because I couldn't imagine the 10 year commitment for UPT. I've now been in for 7 1/2 years, so in hindsight that was a shitty reason. Wouldn't take back a second of my career as a nav, but highly recommend you spend some time pursuing the powered flight thing before you write off pilot over "bad hands." At the very least, solo and get yourself 20-30 hours before you decide you hate it.

[F15E154]

Go to UPT....you'll be glad you did when you have a fall back skill set when you retire / separate.

[nsplayr]

Good advice being offered here. My additions with some repeats for emphasis:

A) Try powered flying and get to the point where you can solo. I'm definitely in the category of liking flying without loving it, however I had a blast flying -172s in a civilian capacity. There are few people who are inclined to try flying that can't be taught how to do it safely enough to take a Cessna up and have a good time.

B) If you still don't love being at the controls but enjoy flying enough do wanna do it every day as a profession and you want to be involved in the big picture mission of the Air Force, becoming a CSO is a great way to do it.

C) AFSOC is great for getting you "in the fight" so to speak and a great place to be a CSO. However it is pretty hard to escape and you will get ridden hard. There is absolutely no glass ceiling for CSOs in AFSOC; Gen. Fiel, the 3-star AFSOC/CC is an EWO by trade.

A possible benefit of going CSO vs pilot is your commitment is noticeably shorter. As someone who's getting out at the end of my initial flying commitment my pilot buddies who are leaning the same way are jealous that I'm punching now and they have 4 years to go.

On the other hand, if you even think you might wanna be a pilot, don't pass up the once in a lifetime opportunity to give it a shot from the start. Yea, you can always try to go to UPT later once you're a CSO, but if you can get a pilot slot out of the zoo and you think you might wanna do it, give it a shot.

Either way bloom where you're planted and good luck.

[olevelo]

Also of note, platforms like the AC-130U/W/J are highly CSO centric, the pilots really are mostly stick monkeys, and you get to do the bad guy shooting.

[discus]

Also of note, platforms like the AC-130U/W/J are highly CSO centric, the pilots really are mostly stick monkeys, and you get to do the bad guy shooting.

False. The AC platforms are models of CRM, and although the CSO's may play a larger role than some airframes, the Aircraft Commander still hold the "A" code for a reason. Anyone that tells you any different is trying to sell you a load of goods.

P. S. It is not good policy to talk out your ass about things you don't know about.

[olevelo]

I do know, since I fly on them. The U-boat not be as much, but the W definitely is and the J will be.