US flags at half-mast for Nelson Mandela--thoughts?

[M2]

Masshole's point about Thatcher and the fact that the flag wasn't being flown at half staff to recognize Pearl Harbor are probably the two more disgusting points about this discussion.

I am no fan of Mandela's and I don't think his passing warrants the US flag being flown at half staff only because other more deserving individuals didn't get that honor.

It was a clear political move by our President and I know that is a cue for Vertigo and nsplayr to join the conversation in 3, 2, 1...

[Homestar]

At least the president made the order to fly the flag at half staff. Most of the time people just decide to fly it half staff on their own. Many times I've driven onto base only to wonder which former senator or president died, only to find out that nothing has happened that warranted national mourning.

Now, whether Mandela warrants the symbol of national mourning in the United States is debatable.

[Masshole]

Second guessing putting a tire around someones neck and setting it on fire or executing political enemies is not being cynical. Please.

Copy, you have no data.

Wrong, there is plenty of data. If you do not see the need to venture outside of the extremist blogs that have little to no academic value and read the onslaught of legitimate articles that detail Mandela's legacy and the progress South Africa has made since apartheid, then there's nothing I can do for you but be leery of such ignorance in future discussions. No, Mandela was not perfect, but he improved the quality of life for a great deal of South Africans. Whether you like it or not, he was a foreign dignitary and our president paid him respect.

Masshole's point about Thatcher and the fact that the flag wasn't being flown at half staff to recognize Pearl Harbor are probably the two more disgusting points about this discussion.

I am no fan of Mandela's and I don't think his passing warrants the US flag being flown at half staff only because other more deserving individuals didn't get that honor.

It was a clear political move by our President and I know that is a cue for Vertigo and nsplayr to join the conversation in 3, 2, 1...

What point about Thatcher? I made no mention of her.

[Fuzz]

Well I'm sure the "Brain Drain" from SA by all the white people (who were also the educated and professionals) due to their safety being threatened, the unemployment going from 15% prior, to 40% and now 20 years later still at 30%, and the general spiral of QOL (higher murder rate for a fifth of the population, rape capital of the world) is real "progress". The onslaught of "legitimate" articles is a dubious at best considering how many "legitimate" articles I read everyday championing asinine theories or policies by very educated people.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Fuzz

[Buddy Spike]

Wrong, there is plenty of data. If you do not see the need to venture outside of the extremist blogs that have little to no academic value and read the onslaught of legitimate articles that detail Mandela's legacy and the progress South Africa has made since apartheid, then there's nothing I can do for you but be leery of such ignorance in future discussions. No, Mandela was not perfect, but he improved the quality of life for a great deal of South Africans. Whether you like it or not, he was a foreign dignitary and our president paid him respect.

What point about Thatcher? I made no mention of her.

Stop arguing feelings and attacking the source and use facts, sweetie. What was the unemployment rate for South Africa in 1993 compared to the end of 1999/2000? What is it today? What was the average per capita income when he took office vs 2000? What is necklacing, and who was Winnie Mandela? What was Mandela's relationship to the ANC? What was the Marikana Massacre? Was the quality of life improved for all South Africans? Even white South Africans?

[M2]

What point about Thatcher? I made no mention of her.

OK, it was Buddy Spike; but I was trying to help you out as your side isn't doing too well...

And you should have mentioned the Iron Lady, but I guess since you probably weren't even born yet you have no memory of her awesomeness!

[Masshole]

Stop arguing feelings and attacking the source and use facts, sweetie. What was the unemployment rate for South Africa in 1993 compared to the end of 1999/2000? What is it today? What was the average per capita income when he took office vs 2000? What is necklacing, and who was Winnie Mandela? What was Mandela's relationship to the ANC? What was the Marikana Massacre? Was the quality of life improved for all South Africans? Even white South Africans?

For not wanting to argue feelings, you initiated it with the passive-aggressive pet names. Sweetie? LOL. Grow up. I am arguing facts. I am arguing based on what is published in academic journals (ie Council on Foreign Relations) to counter your extremist blogs.

You want to blame the Marikana Massacre on Nelson Mandela? Seriously? You are trying to completely discredit his efforts to promote nonracial democracy and racial reconciliation, which is severely misguided, on the failures of his successors. I and the others advocating his legacy agree he is not perfect and handled some things poorly, but he had shaped South Africa to be free of repression and to be a place where human rights are guaranteed by law.

As far as unemployment in South Africa, yes, it is not good, but don't cherry-pick statistics because you're missing out on the whole picture. They are regarded as an emerging market by experts (not just message board members) because they are making progress and show signs of growth. They are chosen to become the bridge for the rest of the world with Africa.

OK, it was Buddy Spike; but I was trying to help you out as your side isn't doing too well...

And you should have mentioned the Iron Lady, but I guess since you probably weren't even born yet you have no memory of her awesomeness!

I should have but you are right that I do not know much of her. I was born in 1994, only a few years after her reign.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Masshole

[Fuzz]

They are regarded as an emerging market by experts (not just message board members) because they are making progress and show signs of growth. They are chosen to become the bridge for the rest of the world with Africa.

They were a "bridge" or whatever you want to call prior to the ANC takeover, and now are in one of those nowhere to go but up scenarios, so yes they are improving but falling down a hill and then climbing back up does not count a progress. Also lets be real "emerging market" in Africa has a pretty low standard considering they are still busy massacring each other across most of the continent on any given day.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Fuzz

[magnetfreezer]

For not wanting to argue feelings, you initiated it with the passive-aggressive pet names. Sweetie? LOL. Grow up. I am arguing facts. I am arguing based on what is published in academic journals (ie Council on Foreign Relations) to counter your extremist blogs.

You want to blame the Marikana Massacre on Nelson Mandela? Seriously? You are trying to completely discredit his efforts to promote nonracial democracy and racial reconciliation, which is severely misguided, on the failures of his successors. I and the others advocating his legacy agree he is not perfect and handled some things poorly, but he had shaped South Africa to be free of repression and to be a place where human rights are guaranteed by law.

As far as unemployment in South Africa, yes, it is not good, but don't cherry-pick statistics because you're missing out on the whole picture. They are regarded as an emerging market by experts (not just message board members) because they are making progress and show signs of growth. They are chosen to become the bridge for the rest of the world with Africa.

I should have but you are right that I do not know much of her. I was born in 1994, only a few years after her reign.

Apartheid was bad. So were the Taliban. Doesn't mean we honor Karzai for porking it away since.

[PapaJu]

Stop arguing feelings and attacking the source and use facts, sweetie. What was the unemployment rate for South Africa in 1993 compared to the end of 1999/2000? What is it today? What was the average per capita income when he took office vs 2000? What is necklacing, and who was Winnie Mandela? What was Mandela's relationship to the ANC? What was the Marikana Massacre? Was the quality of life improved for all South Africans? Even white South Africans?

Asking the, "Was South Africa better before or after Apartheid?" question is absurd in the first place. Better for whites during Apartheid, potentially better for blacks after.

[Buddy Spike]

For not wanting to argue feelings, you initiated it with the passive-aggressive pet names. Sweetie? LOL. Grow up. I am arguing facts. I am arguing based on what is published in academic journals (ie Council on Foreign Relations) to counter your extremist blogs.

You want to blame the Marikana Massacre on Nelson Mandela? Seriously? You are trying to completely discredit his efforts to promote nonracial democracy and racial reconciliation, which is severely misguided, on the failures of his successors. I and the others advocating his legacy agree he is not perfect and handled some things poorly, but he had shaped South Africa to be free of repression and to be a place where human rights are guaranteed by law.

As far as unemployment in South Africa, yes, it is not good, but don't cherry-pick statistics because you're missing out on the whole picture. They are regarded as an emerging market by experts (not just message board members) because they are making progress and show signs of growth. They are chosen to become the bridge for the rest of the world with Africa.

I should have but you are right that I do not know much of her. I was born in 1994, only a few years after her reign.

Sooo... On the "facts" thing you would have... nothing?

Asking the, "Was South Africa better before or after Apartheid?" question is absurd in the first place. Better for whites during Apartheid, potentially better for blacks after.

Nonsense. It is definitely quantifiable in terms of standard economic analysis as a country - regardless of individual group.

[Masshole]

Apartheid was bad. So were the Taliban. Doesn't mean we honor Karzai for porking it away since.

I do not know what you mean by "porking it away" but the Taliban is not gone and I do not believe Karzai has laid the groundwork for reforming and reconciling ethnic tensions among the groups in Afghanistan.

Sooo... On the "facts" thing you would have... nothing?

No, here are readings you can peruse:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23041513

https://www.marketplace.org/topics/world/nelson-mandelas-legacy-economic-too

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139392/ryan-irwin/mandelas-unfinished-business

The last one is tailored greatly for this argument. It is the failure of leadership post-Mandela that has lead to what you use to discredit him.

They were a "bridge" or whatever you want to call prior to the ANC takeover, and now are in one of those nowhere to go but up scenarios, so yes they are improving but falling down a hill and then climbing back up does not count a progress. Also lets be real "emerging market" in Africa has a pretty low standard considering they are still busy massacring each other across most of the continent on any given day.

This is Mandela's fault?

[Danny Noonin]

Nonsense. It is definitely quantifiable in terms of standard economic analysis as a country - regardless of individual group.

Am I reading this right? Are you suggesting blacks in South Africa had it better during apartheid?

[Toro]

Wow.

Okay, here's everything you wanted to know about Mandela but were afraid to ask.

[Boxhead]

Like so many discussions about the current flag policy, this conversation is not really about the flag, but about how swell Mandela is or is not. The US code that defines when the flag is flown is not enforceable by any real teeth anyway, otherwise all the dunk d-bags at sporting events who ignore the Anthem and flag would be in jail, and when I was at a parade in my hometown recently, I would not have been the only person within eyesight that stood, took my hat off and put my hand on my heart.

FWIW, I wish the rule would be changed, I don't think it should be used for anyone except an American. Who the topic of conversation is has no bearing on that. Kinda like my feeling on the topic has no bearing on the rule. Savage Catch-22.

But since we are debating it…sure he was a socialist, violent youth, fighting against a violent government, he settled down when they gave him 26-ish years to think about stuff. He suffered, improved, and ended up doing pretty darn good stuff for lots and lots of people. Which is more than I can say for a majority of our US statesmen, and they will get the flag at half mast using the US Code referenced above. Viewing it like that, I would say that honoring Mandela with lower the flag is not really indicative of the huge impact he had on the world.

However, I am a citizen of the US, not the world, so screw that, the flag is only for us. The good, the bad and the ugly. For better or for worse.

[Fuzz]

This is Mandela's fault?

No I was pointing out that saying SA is an emerging market compared to the rest of Africa is a pretty low bar given the overall state of the continent.

[Buddy Spike]

Am I reading this right? Are you suggesting blacks in South Africa had it better during apartheid?

No you are not. Blacks are not the only people in South Africa. Is swapping one discrimination for another ok?

I do not know what you mean by "porking it away" but the Taliban is not gone and I do not believe Karzai has laid the groundwork for reforming and reconciling ethnic tensions among the groups in Afghanistan.

No, here are readings you can peruse:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23041513

https://www.marketplace.org/topics/world/nelson-mandelas-legacy-economic-too

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139392/ryan-irwin/mandelas-unfinished-business

The last one is tailored greatly for this argument. It is the failure of leadership post-Mandela that has lead to what you use to discredit him.

This is Mandela's fault?

In 1993 when Mandela took over, unemployment was right around 13%. When he left office, it was right around 26%. Today, it is near that (some estimates even double at 50%, but it is widely held that of young people, nearly 60% are unemployed). The average per capita income declined from 13.2% of the US level in 1995 to 8.5% in 2000.

Since you won't answer about Winnie, I'll post it again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklacing

"Together, hand in hand, with that stick of matches, with our necklace, we shall liberate this country. "

[HeloDude]

Interesting video...

One thing is for certain...I just can wait to get more of that delicious socialism over here. My research leads me to believe, that overall, the place is a shithole. I'm glad we're spending 3/4 of a billion dollars to go to another corrupt government. In a month we won't be talking much about it anymore, and their socialistic ways will continue to bring their own country down.

[M2]

OK, time to add some levity to this thread...

[Bobby]

NPR caller confuses Mandela and Morgan Freeman.

[Vertigo]

Posting so as to not disappoint M2 and his countdown.

I'll be honest and admit I know little of Mandela and his history. Ok he was credited for ending apartheid. Great.

What the blacks did with that freedom is on them, I believe. If they've used that freedom to turn their nation into a shithole, that's their own fault- not his. If his policies while leading the nation helped in facilitating that transistion - then he owns that piece.

Should the flag be flown at half staff for him? Not my call. And honestly I don't really know where I lie. Did we fly them at half staff for Maggie? Do we do this for all passing leaders of allied nations or just certain ones? I'll need more info to make my mind up.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Vertigo

[ClearedHot]

While attending the funeral for someone who was on the U.S. Terror Watch List until 2008, POTUS found time to shake hands with Raul Castro and take some Selfie's during the service.

Edited December 10, 2013 by ClearedHot

[M2]

Posting so as to not disappoint M2 and his countdown.

I'll be honest and admit I know little of Mandela and his history. Ok he was credited for ending apartheid. Great.

What the blacks did with that freedom is on them, I believe. If they've used that freedom to turn their nation into a shithole, that's their own fault- not his. If his policies while leading the nation helped in facilitating that transistion - then he owns that piece.

Should the flag be flown at half staff for him? Not my call. And honestly I don't really know where I lie. Did we fly them at half staff for Maggie? Do we do this for all passing leaders of allied nations or just certain ones? I'll need more info to make my mind up.

Obama did not direct that the flags be flown at half staff for Thatcher. It was one of yet many poor decisions made by his administration. Great Britain has been one of our stauchest allies for all of the Twentieth Century, and we probably didn't have any greater relations with the Brits than what we experienced between Reagan and Thatcher. The fact that he failed to attend her funeral or honor her in any way has not gone unnoticed by many of my friends in the UK.

How Mandela rates this distinction while Thatcher did not escapes me. It was a conscience decision on the part of the Obama Administration to recognize one and not the other, but for what reasons I cannot fathom...

[M2]

And proof that Mandela was a racist...

[PapaJu]

Hey, at least he was for voters getting IDs first...