Pilot over-reliance on automation.

[clouseau]

Interesting WSJ on the downside to automation .

https://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304439804579204202526288042

[Grabby]

Just read an article this morning on how the Asiana pilot flying the approach at SFO was extremely nervous having to fly a visual.

[hispeed7721]

Just read an article this morning on how the Asiana pilot flying the approach at SFO was extremely nervous having to fly a visual.  

Several of my friends went to fly for different Asian airlines after getting out and have said that more often than not their pilots have zero ability to hand fly anything. If the ILS/LOC/etc is out they have no idea what to do. They've said it's just the way they train and learn...they know checklist steps down pat but if anything changes and a critical decision has to be made they just freeze up and don't know what to do to correct

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Champ Kind]

Google the video "children of the magenta line" and watch it on YouTube.

[clouseau]

Here's the video .

https://vimeo.com/64502012

Edited December 11, 2013 by clouseau

[Champ Kind]

^ Thanks. My imbedding skills are lacking.

[Hacker]

FWIW, the name of the presentation is "Automation Dependency".

I searched for this video for nearly a decade under the belief that it was called "Children of the Magenta Line", based off of a line Warren Vanderburgh says in there. That search went nowhere...

[brabus]

if anything changes and a critical decision has to be made they just freeze up and don't know what to do to correct

I'm pretty sure that applies to 90% of people in Asia in every facet of life and career field. "Flexing" to changes/non-standard is not in their lexicon.

[clouseau]

I'm pretty sure that applies to 90% of people in Asia in every facet of life and career field. "Flexing" to changes/non-standard is not in their lexicon.

And therein lies the problem with automation dependency and at some point change needs to be initiated ,the first step down that road will be the hardest .

Edited December 12, 2013 by clouseau

[TheGuardGuy]

How are we doing in regards to combating this issue, particularly in the strat lift world? I haven't seen this as an issue in the herc H community- I believe due to the amount of Tac Formation flying and limited automation in regards to our airland missions. I rarely utilize automation outside of cruise. What are the standard practices in the c-17 and c-5 communities?

Edited December 12, 2013 by TheGuardGuy

[Tinker51]

The Feds put this out in January.

After years of saying use the automation use the automation use the automation, they are now saying hand fly every now and then.

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/safo/all_safos/media/2013/SAFO13002.pdf

[jazzdude]

How are we doing in regards to combating this issue, particularly in the strat lift world? I haven't seen this as an issue in the herc H community- I believe due to the amount of Tac Formation flying and limited automation in regards to our airland missions. I rarely utilize automation outside of cruise. What are the standard practices in the c-17 and c-5 communities?

C-17 vis formation: Autopilot/Autothrottles engaged, split axis (essentially jet flies pitch and you control roll), and let's leave SKE/FFS up even though its clear and a million (not necessarily bad, but seems to used as a crutch at times)

Airdrop- why are you hand flying? Couple up to the autopilot...

About the only real hand flying we do is AAR, Tac Departures and Arrivals, and pattern work. Not that its bad, but its nice to hand fly every once in a while.

[pcola]

How are we doing in regards to combating this issue, particularly in the strat lift world? I haven't seen this as an issue in the herc H community- I believe due to the amount of Tac Formation flying and limited automation in regards to our airland missions. I rarely utilize automation outside of cruise. What are the standard practices in the c-17 and c-5 communities?

C-17...

About the only real hand flying we do is AAR, Tac Departures and Arrivals, and pattern work. Not that its bad, but its nice to hand fly every once in a while.

C-5 = same. Some of us (not many) will also make it a priority to fly FD-off approaches in the sim/local area as well.

[Ram]

Jeebus.

And here I was, feeling bad that I used altitude hold tonight in the marshall for 60 seconds while I had an NVG issue...

[Spinner]

Airdrop- why are you hand flying? Couple up to the autopilot...

Vis low level, no for modified contour.

SKE, hell yes if I'm lead.

[disgruntledemployee]

I like that my hours are mostly my hours, not George's hours. I got into this pilot business because I really like controlling the plane with the hands and feet. Even when doing long-haul, I encourage everyone hand fly up to cruise and on the way back down.

Out

[ThreeHoler]

I like that my hours are mostly my hours, not George's hours.  I got into this pilot business because I really like controlling the plane with the hands and feet.  Even when doing long-haul, I encourage everyone hand fly up to cruise and on the way back down.

 

Out

Except for that pesky RVSM thing.

[Spinner]

Except for that pesky RVSM thing.

What is this RVSM thing you speak of? Class A airspace is a scary venture for us Herk guys.

[clouseau]

What is this RVSM thing you speak of? Class A airspace is a scary venture for us Herk guys.

Here let me help you with that -

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/enroute/rvsm/

[osulax05]

Clouseau, better give your sarcasm detector the ole Lockheed fix.

[arg]

My how things change. In the old Talon you could couple the autopilot to the TF/TA radar. Nobody that I know of ever trusted it. Never seen it used.

Don't know if the 111 guys used theirs much or not.

[Right Seat Driver]

My how things change. In the old Talon you could couple the autopilot to the TF/TA radar. Nobody that I know of ever trusted it. Never seen it used.

Don't know if the 111 guys used theirs much or not.

Asked a few 111 guys. They used the AP a lot, but were always ready to take the jet if necessary. However, one of them stated they probably wouldn't be able to react fast enough to save the jet if George went tits-up.

[clouseau]

Clouseau, better give your sarcasm detector the ole Lockheed fix.

Fixed and in working order for now .lmao

[JS]

Biggest takeaway from the video - when you hear "what's it doing?" that should be a big cue to click off some of the automation before it gets you violated or killed.

Not saying I am better than the average guy he was talking about who buries his head in the box the second they get a new clearance in the terminal area or the second "it" isn't doing what it is supposed to do, but I would like to think that my mentality has always been to dumb down the system and click it one level down the second my SA started to decrease due to "it" not doing what it was supposed to do.

And of course, 99% of the time, "it" doesn't do what it is supposed to do because of pilot error or the computer being programmed wrong, but that's sort of another story. I like his overall philosophy of having, as your personal safety net, the mindset to click everything off and fly the damn plane the second your brain and the automation are not flying in perfect formation.

[TreeA10]

Biggest takeaway from the video - when you hear "what's it doing?" that should be a big cue to click off some of the automation before it gets you violated or killed.

Not saying I am better than the average guy he was talking about who buries his head in the box the second they get a new clearance in the terminal area or the second "it" isn't doing what it is supposed to do, but I would like to think that my mentality has always been to dumb down the system and click it one level down the second my SA started to decrease due to "it" not doing what it was supposed to do.

And of course, 99% of the time, "it" doesn't do what it is supposed to do because of pilot error or the computer being programmed wrong, but that's sort of another story. I like his overall philosophy of having, as your personal safety net, the mindset to click everything off and fly the damn plane the second your brain and the automation are not flying in perfect formation.

My theory on this is that I was hired for my pilot skills, not my IT skills, because I suck at troubleshooting computer problems. I can solve the "where the jet is going" problem a lot faster than I can solve the "why is it doing something that I do not understand" problem. But that is resorting back to basic flying skills which makes me wonder what kind of training or mindset would allow both pilots on a wide body airliner to acknowledge that they thought there was a problem with the throttles because the throttles were not controlling airspeed yet DID NOTHING to fix the problem....like push the throttles up. Apparently the FAA is looking at the accidents at Buffalo, SFO, and the Air France crash and thinking the same thing.

I did the first of two sims last night for our 9 month recurrent training and we did an approach, departure, and a FL350 stall. Stabilize the picture, pull the power to idle and hold the picture, let the airplane run out of flying speed, and then recover. First time I have ever done those in 14 years with the airlines. Last time I did those in a jet was as a T-38 IP.