China & Chinese Shenanigans

[Biff_T]

If you teach our enemy to kill us for money then FAHQ!

[icohftb]

4 hours ago, ThreeHoler said:

 

See WaPo expose on 280 retired senior officers working for the UAE.

 

Well don't we send active duty pilots there to train them?

[Khruangbin33]

Saw a Reddit post a few days ago from an American who went from 0 hours to Spirit FO in 4 years.  Did it by going to a FAA part-whatever school and then building hours in China by teaching aviation cadets.  Supposing a smattering of those cadets end up in PLAAF cockpits, I rather doubt that the fellow realizes he aided and abetted an adversary and contributed to putting American lives in danger.

[Lord Ratner]

20 minutes ago, Khruangbin33 said:

Saw a Reddit post a few days ago from an American who went from 0 hours to Spirit FO in 4 years.  Did it by going to a FAA part-whatever school and then building hours in China by teaching aviation cadets.  Supposing a smattering of those cadets end up in PLAAF cockpits, I rather doubt that the fellow realizes he aided and abetted an adversary and contributed to putting American lives in danger.

You can't expect a regular citizen to identify China as a don't-associate-with enemy when our government (and big business organism) has been bending over backwards for years to maintain our economic relationship with the CCP.

 

Now we are declaring economic war on China, but without the declaration. This semiconductor ban is an existential threat to many CCP initiatives. It will not just pass by in the night. And what can China do to simultaneously gain the needed semiconductor infrastructure while checking off an ancient and deeply symbolic goal of unifying the Chinese lands?

 

I'm worried the unexpected success of Ukraine against Russia is emboldening the hawks to provoke China to invade Taiwan.

 

On the flip side, I think in the long term this war is inevitable, so maybe we just rip off the band-aid. But it's not going to be pretty.

[HeloDude]

On 10/18/2022 at 8:11 AM, SocialD said:

 

 

LOL the article says they're only paying these dudes ~$270k?!  NFW that's all they're paying these dudes.  That's chump change for betraying your country, risking your life and living in that shithole.  

Playing devil’s advocate:  How exactly are these pilots “betraying” their country?

[brabus]

By directly contributing to the enhancement of our #1 enemy’s military capability. This isn’t teaching Saudis, UAE, etc. (countries we’re not preparing to face in peer-level combat). 

[Biff_T]

If I decided to teach the Russians our tactics during the Cold War would you consider me a traitor?  I sure as hell would.

China is our enemy.  If you train them for financial gain, you are a traitor.   

[HeloDude]

47 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

If I decided to teach the Russians our tactics during the Cold War would you consider me a traitor?  I sure as hell would.

China is our enemy.  If you train them for financial gain, you are a traitor.   

If China is our enemy, then why are they one of our largest trading partners?…which of course helps grow their economy, and in turn, their military/capabilities?  How many products do you personally buy that are made in China or have components made in China?

If China is our “enemy” then you could have fooled me.

[SocialD]

2 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Playing devil’s advocate:  How exactly are these pilots “betraying” their country?

 

 

Essentially what Biff said.

 

 

2 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

If China is our “enemy” then you could have fooled me.

 

 

Huh?  Are you still in the military?  

[FLEA]

33 minutes ago, SocialD said:

 

 

Essentially what Biff said.

 

 

 

 

Huh?  Are you still in the military?  

Ive found that outside of the military the majority of the US population and US government rejects the theory of great power competition and believes that we have an economic competitor relationship to China vs an adversarial relationship. He makes a good point. We may go to work every day planning how to destroy China but that is not how the majority of US society or the USG thinks. So is China our enemy simply because some random general in the DoD said they are our enemy? Or is there more to substantiate that. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by FLEA

[HeloDude]

1 hour ago, SocialD said:

Essentially what Biff said.

Huh?  Are you still in the military?  

The military doesn’t determine who our enemy is with regards to X country vs Y country.  Politicians do.

Let me guess…you also buy products made in China.  And yes, unless you can find a way for me to retire tonight (I’m interested) then I’m still in the military.

[Biff_T]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

If China is our enemy, then why are they one of our largest trading partners?…which of course helps grow their economy, and in turn, their military/capabilities?  How many products do you personally buy that are made in China or have components made in China?

If China is our “enemy” then you could have fooled me.

Then by all means, go teach the Chinese how to fly.   Just don't get mad if I call you a traitor.

Just because I'm forced (please don't tell me I can choose to purchase non Chinese made goods) to buy goods from China, doesn't mean they have my best interests at heart.  

 

  

Edited October 19, 2022 by Biff_T
Choose not chose

[Biff_T]

6 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

The military doesn’t determine who our enemy is with regards to X country vs Y country.  Politicians do.

Let me guess…you also buy products made in China.  And yes, unless you can find a way for me to retire tonight (I’m interested) then I’m still in the military.

So your reasoning is because greed has moved most manufacturing jobs to places like China, they can't be our enemy?   

Xi has a J-38 waiting for you.  

[HeloDude]

8 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

Then by all means, go teach the Chinese how to fly.   Just don't get mad if I call you a traitor.

Just because I'm forced (please don't tell me I can choose to purchase non Chinese made goods) to buy goods from China, doesn't mean they have my best interest at heart.  

 

  

You can call someone anything you want…it just doesn’t make it so.

And you are not “forced” to buy products made in China lol.  If so, please tell me which products, who forced you, and how did they force you, exactly.

[HeloDude]

4 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

So your reasoning is because greed has moved most manufacturing jobs to places like China, they can't be our enemy?   

Xi has a J-38 waiting for you.  

Who exactly determines who is the enemy of the US?  And why would you voluntarily trade with your enemy if it strengthens them?

[Biff_T]

2 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

You can call someone anything you want…it just doesn’t make it so.

And you are not “forced” to buy products made in China lol.  If so, please tell me which products, who forced you, and how did they force you, exactly.

At the present time, it's damn near impossible to buy goods made without some sort of Chinese manufacturing tied into it.  You and I both know this.  

Greedy businessmen and politicians did this to us.   

The Chinese are our enemy because they hope for the failure of our way of life.  Freedom is a huge problem for the CPC and we have a lot of it.   

  

[HeloDude]

9 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

At the present time, it's damn near impossible to buy goods made without some sort of Chinese manufacturing tied into it.  You and I both know this.  

Greedy businessmen and politicians did this to us.   

The Chinese are our enemy because they hope for the failure of our way of life.  Freedom is a huge problem for the CPC and we have a lot of it.   

  

You said you were forced to buy products made in China…I simply asked what products, who is forcing you, and how are they forcing you?

If you’re just bummed that things you really want to have are only made in China (or less affordable elsewhere), then sure, I’ll give you that…but that’s not what you said.  I’m not a personal fan of buying things made in China, but I don’t care enough (or think they’re my enemy) to not do so.  If you’re going to call someone your enemy but continue to enrich them, then I question your sincerity.  

[Boomer6]

China is our enemy because China, specifically the CCP, has decided we’re their enemy. Not that recommending someone on the internet go read a book ever actually worked, but you might take a look at The Hundred Year Marathon by Michael Pillsbury. They’ve been telling us for 70 years we’re their greatest enemy and we (the collective we), have been too busy trying to make money off them to actually listen.

[Biff_T]

4 hours ago, HeloDude said:

You said you were forced to buy products made in China…I simply asked what products, who is forcing you, and how are they forcing you?

If you’re just bummed that things you really want to have are only made in China (or less affordable elsewhere), then sure, I’ll give you that…but that’s not what you said.  I’m not a personal fan of buying things made in China, but I don’t care enough (or think they’re my enemy) to not do so.  If you’re going to call someone your enemy but continue to enrich them, then I question your sincerity.  

I get your point.  We (average Americans) don't really have control where our goods are made.  Nobody held a gun to my face and forced me to buy a Chinese made number two pencil.  

However, I can personally tell China no when they ask me to learn them something for money.     

Don't question my sincerity, question those who made it this way.  

Edited October 20, 2022 by Biff_T
I proofread after I post

[McJay Pilot]

I mean… there’s several people I’ve flown with in my career who I would encourage to instruct potential/current enemies of our nation… it’d make our jobs a LOT easier. Know what I’m sayin?

[arg]

Somebody forgot to tell Biden. From the campain trail I believe. "They're not bad folks"

[HeloDude]

2 hours ago, Biff_T said:

I get your point.  We (average Americans) don't really have control where our goods are made.  Nobody held a gun to my face and forced me buy a Chinese made number two pencil.  

However, I can personally tell China no when they ask me to learn them something for money.     

Don't question my sincerity, question those who made it this way.  

We average Americans have all the control…we just choose not to (or are too weak) to exercise the control.  If average Americans said they wouldn’t buy Apple products made in China, I’m sure that would make Apple at least think twice to where they make their products.

I wouldn’t want to live in China and train their pilots, but I wouldn’t want to do the same with Vietnamese pilots, Indian pilots, Brazilian pilots, French pilots, etc.  I’ve trained pilots in Iraq (along with plenty of other “allied” nations’ pilots here in the US) so I’m good in that arena.    For the record, I’m not personally a fan of China/CCP and I don’t think they’re up to much good, but yet I’m not wanting to go to war with them…to protect Taiwan, Japan, or anyone else an ocean away.

The vast majority of Americans would not want us to stop trading with China, much less go to war with them.  But yet you’re telling me that China is the enemy of the US?  Says who?

[Biff_T]

8 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

We average Americans have all the control…we just choose not to (or are too weak) to exercise the control.  If average Americans said they wouldn’t buy Apple products made in China, I’m sure that would make Apple at least think twice to where they make their products.

I wouldn’t want to live in China and train their pilots, but I wouldn’t want to do the same with Vietnamese pilots, Indian pilots, Brazilian pilots, French pilots, etc.  I’ve trained pilots in Iraq (along with plenty of other “allied” nations’ pilots here in the US) so I’m good in that arena.    For the record, I’m not personally a fan of China/CCP and I don’t think they’re up to much good, but yet I’m not wanting to go to war with them…to protect Taiwan, Japan, or anyone else an ocean away.

The vast majority of Americans would not want us to stop trading with China, much less go to war with them.  But yet you’re telling me that China is the enemy of the US?  Says who?

 

Says China.  Ask your intel shop what they think about this. 

Ask the PACAF commander what they (PACAF) are doing in Asia. 

I don't want to go to war with China (I'm retired and don't have to).   I also, don't want them learning how to defeat us in a war if it should break out, especially from our own ex military members.   

The vast majority of Americans couldn't point out Taiwan on a map.  I don't expect them to want to stop buying cheap goods from China either.  I also don't think most Americans care where the cheap goods come from as long as they're cheap.   

I hope I'm wrong and maybe China is our ally?   My bet is they aren't.  

[SurelySerious]

We average Americans have all the control…we just choose not to (or are too weak) to exercise the control.  If average Americans said they wouldn’t buy Apple products made in China, I’m sure that would make Apple at least think twice to where they make their products.
I wouldn’t want to live in China and train their pilots, but I wouldn’t want to do the same with Vietnamese pilots, Indian pilots, Brazilian pilots, French pilots, etc.  I’ve trained pilots in Iraq (along with plenty of other “allied” nations’ pilots here in the US) so I’m good in that arena.    For the record, I’m not personally a fan of China/CCP and I don’t think they’re up to much good, but yet I’m not wanting to go to war with them…to protect Taiwan, Japan, or anyone else an ocean away.
The vast majority of Americans would not want us to stop trading with China, much less go to war with them.  But yet you’re telling me that China is the enemy of the US?  Says who?

I know you HAVE to be acting intentionally obtuse, but are you aware of a document called the NSS? Or take a trip over to INDOPACOM and review their strategic mission documents. Just because we have intertwined trade does not make them not our strategic rival. We bought all the titanium for the SR-71 from the USSR. Were they our partners?

[FLEA]

58 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

 

Says China.  Ask your intel shop what they think about this. 

Ask the PACAF commander what they (PACAF) are doing in Asia. 

I don't want to go to war with China (I'm retired and don't have to).   I also, don't want them learning how to defeat us in a war if it should break out, especially from our own ex military members.   

The vast majority of Americans couldn't point out Taiwan on a map.  I don't expect them to want to stop buying cheap goods from China either.  I also don't think most Americans care where the cheap goods come from as long as they're cheap.   

I hope I'm wrong and maybe China is our ally?   My bet is they aren't.  

I think the point being raised though is that the "vast majority of Americans" get an enormous say in who our enemies are, specifically by the fact that they get to vote for the one and only person that constitutionally is allowed to say who our enemies are. And to top that off, that person hasn't said China is our enemy. Competitor state is the term that is continually flung around. But competitor means many things apart from simple kinetic arms slinging. This drags us down the path of 1.) Is what they are doing illegal? no. and 2.) is what they are doing culturally acceptable, and while many of us in the DoD might frown on it, its unlikely to buy them exile from the greater US population at large.