China & Chinese Shenanigans

[HeloDude]

34 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

 

Says China.  Ask your intel shop what they think about this. 

Ask the PACAF commander what they (PACAF) are doing in Asia. 

I don't want to go to war with China (I'm retired and don't have to).   I also, don't want them learning how to defeat us in a war if it should break out, especially from our own ex military members.   

The vast majority of Americans couldn't point out Taiwan on a map.  I don't expect them to want to stop buying cheap goods from China either.  I also don't think most Americans care where the cheap goods come from as long as they're cheap.   

I hope I'm wrong and maybe China is our ally?   My bet is they aren't.  

PACAF CC doesn’t set policy towards China.  Again, if they’re so dangerous to our interests, then we need to stop being a major part of their economy.

China isn’t an ally, and they aren’t an enemy.  They’re a major power player on the other side of the globe, and they’re trying to influence things around them.  It’s not the first time this has happened with a different country, and it won’t be the last.

If they are infringing on my liberties here in the US, then I care…otherwise, I don’t like them, but I don’t want to go to war with them.  And yes, I’ll buy stuff made in their country and at most just be annoyed that it was made there vs a non-communist country.

But at the end of the day…we have much bigger problems with what’s going on internally in our country before I need to worry about what’s happening half a globe away.

[HeloDude]

7 minutes ago, FLEA said:

I think the point being raised though is that the "vast majority of Americans" get an enormous say in who our enemies are, specifically by the fact that they get to vote for the one and only person that constitutionally is allowed to say who our enemies are. And to top that off, that person hasn't said China is our enemy. Competitor state is the term that is continually flung around. But competitor means many things apart from simple kinetic arms slinging. This drags us down the path of 1.) Is what they are doing illegal? no. and 2.) is what they are doing culturally acceptable, and while many of us in the DoD might frown on it, its unlikely to buy them exile from the greater US population at large. 

Bingo

If you don’t like China (I don’t), then don’t fly for them.  But I would never call someone a traitor for doing so.

[HeloDude]

32 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

I know you HAVE to be acting intentionally obtuse, but are you aware of a document called the NSS? Or take a trip over to INDOPACOM and review their strategic mission documents. Just because we have intertwined trade does not make them not our strategic rival. We bought all the titanium for the SR-71 from the USSR. Were they our partners?

Ummm, no.  I’m telling you my opinion…which isn’t very different than the opinion of our elected leaders, at least the opinion they publicly share.  And if you’re comparing procuring metal from the USSR for a spy aircraft vs economic trade with our greatest trading partner (for imports, they’re number 3 for exports), then we can’t have a legitimate argument.  Have you ever thought what would happen if trade with China suddenly stopped?  We’re so in bed with them that it’s not even funny.  So tell me—when is it going to stop?

Again, I don’t like China, and am not a fan of buying stuff made over there, but I don’t lose any sleep over it either. 

[SurelySerious]

Ummm, no.  I’m telling you my opinion…which isn’t very different than the opinion of our elected leaders, at least the opinion they publicly share.  And if you’re comparing procuring metal from the USSR for a spy aircraft vs economic trade with our greatest trading partner (for imports, they’re number 3 for exports), then we can’t have a legitimate argument.  Have you ever thought what would happen if trade with China suddenly stopped?  We’re so in bed with them that it’s not even funny.  So tell me—when is it going to stop?
Again, I don’t like China, and am not a fan of buying stuff made over there, but I don’t lose any sleep over it either. 

You keep using this “not buying china stuff” as a feint to distract from the actual point raised several posts ago about former RAF pilots training PLAAF pilots. There is a grave conflict of interest there based on the threat to strategic interests that China poses, and your inability to comprehend it despite all the economic trade doesn’t negate it. China’s on a marathon to overtake the world order we established and depend on.

[Biff_T]

12 hours ago, HeloDude said:

PACAF CC doesn’t set policy towards China.  Again, if they’re so dangerous to our interests, then we need to stop being a major part of their economy.

China isn’t an ally, and they aren’t an enemy.  They’re a major power player on the other side of the globe, and they’re trying to influence things around them.  It’s not the first time this has happened with a different country, and it won’t be the last.

If they are infringing on my liberties here in the US, then I care…otherwise, I don’t like them, but I don’t want to go to war with them.  And yes, I’ll buy stuff made in their country and at most just be annoyed that it was made there vs a non-communist country.

But at the end of the day…we have much bigger problems with what’s going on internally in our country before I need to worry about what’s happening half a globe away.

I agree 👍 (mostly).  They are our enemy.  Other than that, yes.  

Edited October 20, 2022 by Biff_T
Afterthought

[Biff_T]

19 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

You keep using this “not buying china stuff” as a feint to distract from the actual point raised several posts ago about former RAF pilots training PLAAF pilots. There is a grave conflict of interest there based on the threat to strategic interests that China poses, and your inability to comprehend it despite all the economic trade doesn’t negate it. China’s on a marathon to overtake the world order we established and depend on.

I also agree 👍.  My mind is blown.

[HeloDude]

19 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

You keep using this “not buying china stuff” as a feint to distract from the actual point raised several posts ago about former RAF pilots training PLAAF pilots. There is a grave conflict of interest there based on the threat to strategic interests that China poses, and your inability to comprehend it despite all the economic trade doesn’t negate it. China’s on a marathon to overtake the world order we established and depend on.

Ummm, perhaps because the economic piece is a vastly bigger deal than some pilots going over there to train some Chinese pilots.

If we’re so worried about China taking over the world then why are we improving their economy via trade which allows their military to grow/improve?  Stop trying to think just as a military member and look at it from all different angles.

[SurelySerious]

Ummm, perhaps because the economic piece is a vastly bigger deal than some pilots going over there to train some Chinese pilots.
If we’re so worried about China taking over the world then why are we improving their economy via trade which allows their military to grow/improve?  Stop trying to think just as a military member and look at it from all different angles.

Have you tried looking at it from the angle of the strategic white papers china has published saying they want to disrupt our world order? I didn’t say they’re on a marathon to militarily attack us- although they probably think they can beat us sometime soon- , like the mouthbreather you are projecting from your own obtuse perception, I said they’re on a marathon to overtake us on the world stage. DIME inclusive.

[HeloDude]

7 minutes ago, SurelySerious said:

Have you tried looking at it from the angle of the strategic white papers china has published saying they want to disrupt our world order? I didn’t say they’re on a marathon to militarily attack us- although they probably think they can beat us sometime soon- , like the mouthbreather you are projecting from your own obtuse perception, I said they’re on a marathon to overtake us on the world stage. DIME inclusive.

Let me know when we stop being their largest trading partner. 

[SurelySerious]

Let me know when we stop being their largest trading partner. 

Let me know when you can see past one aspect of a complex system.

[Magnum]

Let me know when I love lamp.

[Biff_T]

[SocialD]

9 hours ago, HeloDude said:

If you don’t like China (I don’t), then don’t fly for them.  But I would never call someone a traitor for doing so.

 

 

I would.  I understand your drift, but my opinion remains.  I mean, the .gov didn't freak out over F-35s being built with Chinese alloys because the Chinese are our friends...  I couldn't care less about trade talk, if a SEAL left the Navy and went to train Chinese Special forces how to fight SEALs, the dude is a traitor.  The same thing applies here...especially if he's passing information about our TTPs/classified data.  Now if he's teaching them to do things that will get them shot in the face with a AMRAAM, then I'd consider putting away the pitch forks lol.    

[Boomer6]

8 hours ago, HeloDude said:

Let me know when we stop being their largest trading partner. 

In 1914 Britain and Russia we’re Germany’s largest trading partners.

In the years leading up to Pearl Harbor the US was Japan’s number one trading partner.

Britain was the primary trading partner to the 13 colonies. They were also the primary trading partner to the U.S. prior to the war of 1812. Ironically, a war fought over, among other things, trade.

I hope you’re trolling, because I can’t imagine an officer in the AF having such a short sighted point of view. Oh wait, yes I can, they’re usually the bobs.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Boomer6

[HeloDude]

7 minutes ago, SocialD said:

 

 

I would.  I understand your drift, but my opinion remains.  I mean, the .gov didn't freak out over F-35s being built with Chinese alloys because the Chinese are our friends...  I couldn't care less about trade talk, if a SEAL left the Navy and went to train Chinese Special forces how to fight SEALs, the dude is a traitor.  The same thing applies here...especially if he's passing information about our TTPs/classified data.  Now if he's teaching them to do things that will get them shot in the face with a AMRAAM, then I'd consider putting away the pitch forks lol.    

Has the US or UK made it illegal for an American veteran to go train with the Chinese military?  If not, then why not if they’re our enemy?  And I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to disclose classified information even after you’ve separated/retired.  So in that case, that’s wrong whether they’re sharing that info with the Chinese or the UAE pilots.

If you guys are upset that a couple hundred pilots are training Chinese pilots but not upset that our economy is so intertwined with China then perhaps I can make an analogy that might make more sense:  This is the same as being concerned  that a fentanyl/heroin/cocaine addict smokes a few cigarettes a day but not being concerned about the hard drugs he is using.  The few cigarettes a day that he smokes isn’t good, but that’s not the larger issue here.

[HeloDude]

8 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

In 1914 Britain and Russia we’re Germany’s largest trading partners.

In the years leading up to Pearl Harbor the US was Japan’s number one trading partner.

Britain was the primary trading partner to the 13 colonies. They were also the primary trading partner to the U.S. prior to the war of 1812. Ironically, a war fought over, among other things, trade.

I hope you’re trolling, because I can’t imagine an officer in the AF having such a short sighted point of view. Oh wait, yes I can, they’re usually the bobs.

Dude, you can’t possibly use examples from the Revolutionary war and WW1/2 to say they would apply the same as today.  If that’s the case, then I seriously hope you’re the one who is trolling.

Look past your military experience and take a look at the US today—we’re not even the same country we were 20+ years ago.  Our current president is literally saying our inflation/energy problem is due to Russia invading Ukraine.  Just think what would happen if all trade with China suddenly stopped…and tell me what the American response would be.

[SurelySerious]

Dude, you can’t possibly use examples from the Revolutionary war and WW1/2 to say they would apply the same as today.  If that’s the case, then I seriously hope you’re the one who is trolling.
Look past your military experience and take a look at the US today—we’re not even the same country we were 20+ years ago.  Our current president is literally saying our inflation/energy problem is due to Russia invading Ukraine.  Just think what would happen if all trade with China suddenly stopped…and tell me what the American response would be.

You are the one who is trolling, since the only thing you can come up with is bUt tHeYrE oUr BiGgEsT tRaDe pArTnEr. You clearly aren’t paying attention to the world since you have your head in the sand with i DoNt cArE aBoUt ChInA bEcAuSe We HaVe DoMeStIc PrObLeMs. Yeah…we’re always going to gave domestic problems, and they’ll be a lot worse if someone else rises and starts having an outsize influencer on international rules and order. You’re super obtuse and you’re not even good at it.

[Boomer6]

Russia was Ukraine’s second highest trading partner in 2019. Hopefully that’s recent enough.

The enemy gets a vote. 99% of the U.S didn’t know Osama Bin Ladin was their enemy on Sept 10, 2001. As I said in a previous post and others have alluded to, China has declared the US it’s greatest adversary for the past 70 years. You may not view them that way but that’s how they view us, and they get a vote. Luckily a few ppl in the DoD/gov know this and are preparing.

To your question on the president and energy/inflation, which has no bearing on this conversation, I’d say don’t put much stock in someone losing their senility.

I’m sure stopping trade with a primary trading partner would create uncomfortable implications for the US. However, in the examples I listed above the mass deaths of thousands of US soldiers usually outweighed the rationing of tin and copper for common folks.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Boomer6

[Lord Ratner]

9 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Dude, you can’t possibly use examples from the Revolutionary war and WW1/2 to say they would apply the same as today.

What? Why?

 

In the buildup to WWII the American people were staunchly isolationist, to the point our minimal involvement in the war that was already raging was quite unpopular. It wasn't until Pearl Harbor that the American people woke up to reality.

 

Sound like how we-the-people would react to our Chinese-made TVs getting pricier?

 

Democracies are bad at identifying threats until they are catastrophic threats. I agree with you that the line of calling someone a traitor is blurry when you still have full trade and travel relations with a country, but to claim the country that is actively stealing our military and civilian tech while sowing social discord through digital media bot accounts to destabilize support for the American system is not an enemy is obtuse.

[SocialD]

34 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

Has the US or UK made it illegal for an American veteran to go train with the Chinese military?  If not, then why not if they’re our enemy?  And I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to disclose classified information even after you’ve separated/retired.  So in that case, that’s wrong whether they’re sharing that info with the Chinese or the UAE pilots.

 

 

Do you think they're over there only to teach them the finer points of flying an ILS?  I doubt these dudes think they're training these pilots with the idea that they will be fighting along side us some day.  

 

 

34 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

If you guys are upset that a couple hundred pilots are training Chinese pilots but not upset that our economy is so intertwined with China then perhaps I can make an analogy that might make more sense:  This is the same as being concerned  that a fentanyl/heroin/cocaine addict smokes a few cigarettes a day but not being concerned about the hard drugs he is using.  The few cigarettes a day that he smokes isn’t good, but that’s not the larger issue here.

 

 

I'm not upset at all, I mean, I even LOL'd in my post .  But seriously, I should have been more clear, I don't care about your discussion on the trade issue in relation to these guys.  You can worry about our trade issues while still holding the opinion I do.  It won't change my opinion on these dudes (not that it matters anyway).  

[HeloDude]

36 minutes ago, Boomer6 said:

I’m sure stopping trade with a primary trading partner would create uncomfortable implications for the US. However, in the examples I listed above the mass deaths of thousands of US soldiers usually outweighed the rationing of tin and copper for common folks.

Create “uncomfortable” implications?  Have you seen our country lately?  Do you actually think a majority of Americans are going to support actions leading to all the economic hardships (to say the least) that would come with a war with China?  For what—them invading Taiwan?  For the record, I’m not saying that if China didn’t attack the mainland US or one of our bases overseas that this just change the ball game, but who here actually thinks that will happen in the near/mid future?  
 

By the way…we didn’t even have the resolve to defeat the Taliban.  

[Biff_T]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

 By the way…we didn’t even have the resolve to defeat the Taliban.  

"We" as in the military or the average American?   For the average American, I don't think they really cared what happened in OEF.   I doubt most of them even knew it was still going on.  It wasn't the average American's resolve that lost OEF, it was bad leadership from the top (civilian and military) and lack of will from the Afghans.   

Plenty of examples of wars popping off between trading partners in the history books.  

[HeloDude]

30 minutes ago, SocialD said:

 

 

Do you think they're over there only to teach them the finer points of flying an ILS?  I doubt these dudes think they're training these pilots with the idea that they will be fighting along side us some day.  

 

 

 

 

I'm not upset at all, I mean, I even LOL'd in my post .  But seriously, I should have been more clear, I don't care about your discussion on the trade issue in relation to these guys.  You can worry about our trade issues while still holding the opinion I do.  It won't change my opinion on these dudes (not that it matters anyway).  

We probably share very similar opinions on China.  I’m just of the opinion that we would ever get militarily involved with China, unless of course they physically attacked us, which is very doubtful.  As for those who are upset that China is becoming so powerful that they can push nearby countries around and thinking we can do something substantial to stop it…that ship has sailed.  We strengthened their economy (which has allowed them to grow militarily) in order to strengthen ours, and now we’re concerned.

[HeloDude]

40 minutes ago, Biff_T said:

"We" as in the military or the average American?   For the average American, I don't think they really cared what happened in OEF.   I doubt most of them even knew it was still going on.  It wasn't the average American's resolve that lost OEF, it was bad leadership from the top (civilian and military) and lack of will from the Afghans.   

Plenty of examples of wars popping off between trading partners in the history books.  

“We” as in the American people…everything I have been commenting on is wrt the American people, not as military members.  Because that is who ultimately matters when discussing policies with China.

And you’re mentioning bad leadership as one of the main causes of failure in Afghanistan but yet you are citing opinions of the same leadership on the threat China imposes/what to do about China.  

[Biff_T]

3 hours ago, HeloDude said:

 By the way…we didn’t even have the resolve to defeat the Taliban.  

 

54 minutes ago, HeloDude said:

“We” as in the American people…everything I have been commenting on is wrt the American people, not as military members.  Because that is who ultimately matters when discussing policies with China.

And you’re mentioning bad leadership as one of the main causes of failure in Afghanistan but yet you are citing opinions of the same leadership on the threat China imposes/what to do about China.  

So it wasn't "our" (Americans) resolve that lost Afghanistan after all.  

I haven't cited anyone.  China has declared us their #1 threat.  Not me or our leaders, China. Our NSS is based on it.  Read it.   

I respectfully agree to disagree with you on the state of our relationship with China.