China & Chinese Shenanigans

[pawnman]

2 hours ago, Boomer6 said:

Maybe we should create a separate thread for covid and Ukraine…🤔

Bashi will put it into every thread. He's really passionate about it.

[Lawman]

Weak. Quitter.

Oh please we all wait anxiously for you to throw some more Tucker talking points and RT expressed narratives about Covid and Ukraine please. Tell us why Ukraine is really all the fault of the US, and how Covid vaccines will make us all sterile or some other stupidity. We desperately need more of that here.


[mention=1535]Helodude[/mention] to the point way back about China and the combined impacts of their economic model’s in sustainability combined with the demographic nightmare, this guy is a little more Doom and Gloom than everybody analyzing the situation, but it’s a very succinct collection of the problems they are facing.

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[gearhog]

8 minutes ago, Lawman said:

Oh please we all wait anxiously for you to throw some more Tucker talking points and RT expressed narratives about Covid and Ukraine please. Tell us why Ukraine is really all the fault of the US, and how Covid vaccines will make us all sterile or some other stupidity. We desperately need more of that here.

You mean the ones you claim I'm receiving from the Kremlin's GRU US Veteran Mind Control Program? Give me a sec. I've got poor 5G reception in my secret Russian agent hideout.

...

Oh yeah, they want me to ask you specifically about your claim that the Russians "pulled up" to the NATO border. Wanna expand on that? Putin himself wants to know how many "Poor Dead Grunts" you're willing to sacrifice to fight an imaginary threat that you also believe can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Hold, getting another signal. Xi Xinping wants to know if you're current on your boosters.

[gearhog]

39 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Bashi will put it into every thread. He's really passionate about it.

But not quite as passionate as you are about murdering unvaccinated hospital patients, am I right?

[Boomer6]

Mods while the Ukraine/covid circle jerk continues..

[SurelySerious]

Mods while the Ukraine/covid circle jerk continues..

[HeloDude]

[Lawman]

You mean the ones you claim I'm receiving from the Kremlin's GRU US Veteran Mind Control Program? Give me a sec. I've got poor 5G reception in my secret Russian agent hideout.
...
Oh yeah, they want me to ask you specifically about your claim that the Russians "pulled up" to the NATO border. Wanna expand on that? Putin himself wants to know how many "Poor Dead Grunts" you're willing to sacrifice to fight an imaginary threat that you also believe can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Hold, getting another signal. Xi Xinping wants to know if you're current on your boosters.

You’re not a Russian operative, you’re a useful idiot. Don’t try to oversell your worth.

Understanding the difference would be key in knowing how you’re being abused.

Remember your self proclaimed “I’m willing to listen,” but really no you aren’t. You’re the same old exploitable population of disinformation and disenfranchised persons they’ve always targeted. In the 60s it was the counter culture movements. In the later decades the racial social movements. Now outside influences don’t really care about end goal as much as distraction. But you’re “too smart” for something like that. I mean those guys at CSIS or other such places, they are just part of the Illuminati machine. Thank god some random guy who saw some shit in Iraq is here to break it all down for us.


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[gearhog]

4 hours ago, Lawman said:

You’re not a Russian operative, you’re a useful idiot. Don’t try to oversell your worth.

Nah, I'm just someone that disagrees with you. I've had plenty of civil disagreements with good people in good faith on this forum on a variety of issues. As I've said, I've been here a long time. Over 20 years now. I've seen literally hundreds of other people, like yourself, come and go. Show up, try to debate, and some get nasty about it and often just go away.

4 hours ago, Lawman said:

Remember your self proclaimed “I’m willing to listen,” but really no you aren’t.

Absolutely I am. I've explained why I believe the things I believe numerous times, over and over again. I've given you detailed information that contradicts your position and you never address the specifics. I want to hear why you believe Russia pulled up to NATO borders, why you believe the 2014 coup wasn't foreign interference. But you're not really interested in any of that. You know full well I can poke holes in every one of your arguments. Instead,  your position relies on denigrating me and my service, not my arguments. From my time here, I recognize the type of person that does that, because I've seen you a hundred times. I'm engaging you because if I give you enough rope, you'll hand yourself with it.

4 hours ago, Lawman said:

You’re the same old exploitable population of disinformation and disenfranchised persons they’ve always targeted. In the 60s it was the counter culture movements. In the later decades the racial social movements. Now outside influences don’t really care about end goal as much as distraction.

Who is exploiting me and exactly how are they doing it? Yet another question you'll ignore. It's a claim that sounds good in your own mind, but you're not willing to substantiate it or follow up. Counter-culture movement? Racial social movement? CSIS? Illuminati? WTF are you even talking about? You're just spouting stream of consciousness crazy nonsense and act as though you've scored he game winning point. Who are the specific outside influences in your vague references and what exactly are they attempting to distract us from? Once again, crickets.

But! But! You'll accuse me of being brainwashed while simultaneously regurgitating and vehemently defending every single government approved mainstream narrative on every current issue as if you were writing headlines for MSNBC. Take a look in the mirror. NPC.

5 hours ago, Lawman said:

Thank god some random guy who saw some shit in Iraq is here to break it all down for us.

Honest question: We've been at this for a while now. Have you seen me once attempt to devalue yours or anyone else's service to score a debate point? That's a fair question. I'm pretty careful, but perhaps I did unintentionally. Of course you'll attempt to denigrate mine (I don't care), but to say you don't care about any old veterans' real imagined experiences over there, to refer to fallen soldiers as "Poor Dead Grunts", it demonstrates your character.  I debate people a lot, but rarely ones who say such things. I'd feel genuinely bad about engaging this debate with most others operating in good faith on the forum. But here, I feel there's no real harm done.

[gearhog]

6 hours ago, HeloDude said:

😄 Don't interrupt us while we're enjoying ourselves.

This thread alone has probably generated an incredible amount of revenue for the forum based on the number of pop-ups and ads in the margins. Just trying to help.

Edited August 14, 2023 by gearhog

[pawnman]

13 hours ago, gearhog said:

But not quite as passionate as you are about murdering unvaccinated hospital patients, am I right?

That's gonna be a great talking point for another 20 years or so, eh?

[Lawman]

*Im too smart to be manipulated*

Immediately makes comments on a Russian backed narrative of how the US/NATO broke a promise and that’s why their actions bear justification. (Not their deliberate attempts to cross into NATO airspace lately).

Posts earlier about the Maiden Revolution implying it was a US backed Coup. (First advanced via RT and Sputnik and still present in circles on social media)

Makes comments on the other threads about illegal sale of western munitions and corruption. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-62983444.amp
congrats, you’re being duped.

Finds every open source example (because I doubt you’ve been on SIPR in a decade) of such examples highlighting their origins and advancement on social medie by Russian state actors and cyber brigades as “swallowing the mainstream media narrative.”


Yeah dude you’re too smart to be used. You see through the giant Soros group media Cabal of information and understand how we can’t be supporting Nazi weapons manufacturers designing a Covid strain to target ethnic Russians…


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[DSG]

14 hours ago, Lawman said:

You’re not a Russian operative, you’re a useful idiot. Don’t try to oversell your worth.

Understanding the difference would be key in knowing how you’re being abused.

Remember your self proclaimed “I’m willing to listen,” but really no you aren’t. You’re the same old exploitable population of disinformation and disenfranchised persons they’ve always targeted. In the 60s it was the counter culture movements. In the later decades the racial social movements. Now outside influences don’t really care about end goal as much as distraction. But you’re “too smart” for something like that. I mean those guys at CSIS or other such places, they are just part of the Illuminati machine. Thank god some random guy who saw some shit in Iraq is here to break it all down for us.


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Are you under the impression think tanks are centers of disinterested scholarship?

[Lawman]

Are you under the impression think tanks are centers of disinterested scholarship?

No, but given the open source nature of this forum it is a far more trustworthy source than some guys YouTube video or Twitter research. At least looking across political alignments with the actual shown math format of their products you can formulate and evaluate the information.

There are historical and active examples of the undeniable gains in disinformation campaigns turning into political effect and translating that into actual tangible battlefield capes. It’s the same reason we have Psyops as a domain within the Special Operations community.

From a Russian cost analysis, Fomenting Anger and ignorance in vacuum chambers = political effects = no artillery shells for the Army they are fighting. It is the Information Age equivalent of Leaflet Drops or Tokyo Rose. You would have to be an idiot to ignore it both going on and who it’s targeting actively and passively when its obvious.


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[BashiChuni]

21 hours ago, Lawman said:

You and Bashi could just go find a room to stroke each other in and save us all a lot of time.


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I don’t wanna hear about your dark fantasies 

[gearhog]

18 hours ago, pawnman said:

That's gonna be a great talking point for another 20 years or so, eh?

Not necessarily. Any minor expression of regret or acknowledgement that perhaps you were caught up in the mass hysteria, as many good people were, would completely absolve you in my mind. Until then, when I see your screen name, I see the guy that he wanted to pull the plug on people in the hospital. I'm morally obligated to say something.

15 hours ago, Lawman said:

Immediately makes comments on a Russian backed narrative of how the US/NATO broke a promise and that’s why their actions bear justification. (Not their deliberate attempts to cross into NATO airspace lately).

Posts earlier about the Maiden Revolution implying it was a US backed Coup. (First advanced via RT and Sputnik and still present in circles on social media)

Makes comments on the other threads about illegal sale of western munitions and corruption. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-62983444.amp
congrats, you’re being duped.

Finds every open source example (because I doubt you’ve been on SIPR in a decade) of such examples highlighting their origins and advancement on social medie by Russian state actors and cyber brigades as “swallowing the mainstream media narrative.”

Yeah dude you’re too smart to be used. You see through the giant Soros group media Cabal of information and understand how we can’t be supporting Nazi weapons manufacturers designing a Covid strain to target ethnic Russians…

 

You believe the world is round. If a Russian also believes the world is round, does that mean it isn't? That's been your entire defense this whole time. That if someone from Russia espouses a similar narrative, then that narrative automatically becomes Russian propaganda or a lie.

One can be critical of his own government without being a Russian sympathizer. Allow me to make it abundantly clear to you: In my mind, Russia is a terrible country. They don't have the freedoms we have enjoyed. Russia's economic prosperity is in sharp decline. Putin is corrupt. Putin jails his political opponents. Russia has invaded multiple foreign countries recently. Why would I want to sympathize with the official propaganda narratives a country like that? There would be absolutely no benefit whatsoever for me to promote those narratives. I don't want to live under Russian rule. I want Russia, as a system of government, to fail.

That doesn't mean I'm willing to excuse the leadership of my own country, the United States of America, for engaging in the same behaviors to counter them. I don't want US to become Russia, just to fight Russia. The first time I touched AFG soil was in 2001 and the last was 2018. I invested a lot of my time and career there. So when I recall my experiences there, it's not just to score debate points. To watch it fail miserably in the end just so that our leadership can begin the process of entangling the US in yet another foreign conflict only a few short months later, where we will send even more vast amounts of treasure, and ultimately American lives isn't something I am required to do quietly as much as you would like for me to.

I'm going to say what I believe and let the chips fall where they may. That's the nature of free speech and what I want to preserve. That's what made us better than the USSR/Russia. If you want to more adequately silence my dissent, do so with substance, not dismissal.

As you tout the capabilities of the Russian propaganda machine to reach deep into the hearts and minds of veterans and what not to manipulate them according to their will, do you honestly... honestly... believe that the US does not also have that capability ten-fold, and aggressively using it around the world? Unbelievably Naive.

 

16 hours ago, Lawman said:

Yeah dude you’re too smart to be used. You see through the giant Soros group media Cabal of information and understand how we can’t be supporting Nazi weapons manufacturers designing a Covid strain to target ethnic Russians…

 

You have the basis for a decent argument to be made. But you ruin it with ridiculousness like this. You just fabricated a straw man from silliness that no one here has brought up... just so you can make a spectacle of yourself swatting down bullshit that you, yourself, created. It's dumb. It's childish.

[pawnman]

1 hour ago, gearhog said:

Not necessarily. Any minor expression of regret or acknowledgement that perhaps you were caught up in the mass hysteria, as many good people were, would completely absolve you in my mind. Until then, when I see your screen name, I see the guy that he wanted to pull the plug on people in the hospital. I'm morally obligated to say something.

 

Well, here you go then:

The vaccines definitely don't work as well as advertised.  I don't think there should have been a mandate.  That said, I think the knee-jerk reaction against any kind of protective measures was pretty ridiculous as well.  I think that Pfizer and company made a shit-ton of money from hysteria, and I think that's shameful that we were sold that bill of goods.

I also think it isn't helpful to paint every medical professional as a mustache-twirling evil doer for suggesting basic protective measures.  And I still think it is incredibly alarming the number of military members who think they can just tell senior leaders to pound sand over a decision as trivial as "wear a mask at work if you're not vaccinated".  Like, I get it, people didn't want to get the vaccine.  I still think the DoD has the authority to require it, but whatever, it doesn't seem to be super effective anyway.  But the idea that you can't even be bothered to put up with the barest inconvenience when required by the SECDEF is baffling to me.  "I'm willing to fight and die for my country, but I'm not willing to wear a mask".

And then, to reinforce your point, you parrot Russian propaganda.  Like, literally, Russian talking points.  On Covid, on the weakness of the military, on the weakness of the US in general, on the weakness in the culture, on Ukraine.  You could, quite literally, be a stand-in for Putin's press secretary.  All while claiming to love America.

So sure, I'll apologize.  I'm sorry that I thought the vaccines would be helpful.  I'm sorry that I supported the mandates given their track record.  I won't apologize for "leaving people to die outside hospitals", because that was never a stance I took.  If you want to misrepresent my position, go for it.

I won't say what I see when your username pops up, because quite frankly, I value the forum too much to risk the ban.

[gearhog]

36 minutes ago, pawnman said:

Well, here you go then:

The vaccines definitely don't work as well as advertised.  I don't think there should have been a mandate.  That said, I think the knee-jerk reaction against any kind of protective measures was pretty ridiculous as well.  I think that Pfizer and company made a shit-ton of money from hysteria, and I think that's shameful that we were sold that bill of goods.

I also think it isn't helpful to paint every medical professional as a mustache-twirling evil doer for suggesting basic protective measures.  And I still think it is incredibly alarming the number of military members who think they can just tell senior leaders to pound sand over a decision as trivial as "wear a mask at work if you're not vaccinated".  Like, I get it, people didn't want to get the vaccine.  I still think the DoD has the authority to require it, but whatever, it doesn't seem to be super effective anyway.  But the idea that you can't even be bothered to put up with the barest inconvenience when required by the SECDEF is baffling to me.  "I'm willing to fight and die for my country, but I'm not willing to wear a mask".

And then, to reinforce your point, you parrot Russian propaganda.  Like, literally, Russian talking points.  On Covid, on the weakness of the military, on the weakness of the US in general, on the weakness in the culture, on Ukraine.  You could, quite literally, be a stand-in for Putin's press secretary.  All while claiming to love America.

So sure, I'll apologize.  I'm sorry that I thought the vaccines would be helpful.  I'm sorry that I supported the mandates given their track record.  I won't apologize for "leaving people to die outside hospitals", because that was never a stance I took.  If you want to misrepresent my position, go for it.

I won't say what I see when your username pops up, because quite frankly, I value the forum too much to risk the ban.

Ok. I’m a little surprised.

Not quite the admission I was hoping for, but I sincerely respect your movement in that direction. Solid effort. I don’t believe I’ve ever argued anything about masks, but whatever.
 

I’ll not bring up it again. 
 

Of course, we remain far apart the other things you mentioned. It won’t be me that convinces you to change your position on those, but I have full confidence that “time”will, again, just as it did here. Problem being, you’ll be late. However, I will be there to say, “I told you so.”  🙂
 

cheers

Edited August 15, 2023 by gearhog

[pawnman]

9 minutes ago, gearhog said:

Ok. I’m a little surprised.

Not quite the admission I was hoping for, but I sincerely respect your movement in that direction. Solid effort. I don’t believe I’ve ever argued anything about masks, but whatever.
 

I’ll not bring up it again. 
 

Of course, we remain far apart the other things you mentioned. It won’t be me that convinces you to change your position on those, but I have full confidence that “time”will, again, just as it did here. Problem being, you’ll be late. However, I will be there to say, “I told you so.”  🙂
 

cheers

And I guess I'll hold out some kind of hope you change your position on international relations.

[Lawman]

You have the basis for a decent argument to be made. But you ruin it with ridiculousness like this. You just fabricated a straw man from silliness that no one here has brought up... just so you can make a spectacle of yourself swatting down bullshit that you, yourself, created. It's dumb. It's childish.

You’re not trying to argue some universal scientific truth that the Moon orbits the Earth which orbits the Sun.

You are arguing for a change in foreign policy which would translate to aid and comfort of an enemy you “want to see fail,” and you are doing it with that enemies manufactured talking points and disinformation to built the moral righteousness of your argument. That’s why you’re being criticized for it.

There are plenty of legitimate arguments to be made for any frustrations against this current admin or the way our system works in general. But your frustrations with tax policy or Covid or whatever perceived rights you view at risk, aren’t germane to what you’re being specifically called out for now.

Even if you advocate for not participating in the Ukraine conflict, you can formulate an argument which doesn’t use Russian disinformation and propaganda literally put together, manufactured, manipulated, and amplified by them for their express desire to help their cause on the battlefield. And when you puff up and scream about your 1st amendment right to repeat that propaganda when it’s pointed out to you, or try some moral platitude of “both sides” in the way you are now, that just paints you as a stooge. You are literally carrying Russia’s water for them when you make your argument that way.


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[gearhog]

On 8/15/2023 at 4:12 PM, Lawman said:

You’re not trying to argue some universal scientific truth that the Moon orbits the Earth which orbits the Sun.

You are arguing for a change in foreign policy which would translate to aid and comfort of an enemy you “want to see fail,” and you are doing it with that enemies manufactured talking points and disinformation to built the moral righteousness of your argument. That’s why you’re being criticized for it.

There are plenty of legitimate arguments to be made for any frustrations against this current admin or the way our system works in general. But your frustrations with tax policy or Covid or whatever perceived rights you view at risk, aren’t germane to what you’re being specifically called out for now.

 

Sorry, busy rolling hay this week. Of course I am. "Universal scientific truth" is just a redundant way of saying "truth". I think you have developed your own personal truth, which (let's be honest) is just a collection of narratives you've been told to defend. Again, what good would you be as a soldier if you didn't espouse the "current thing?" You're currently in a contractual obligation. That obligation requires that you see things a certain way to be good at your job. You simply couldn't be good at your job if you allowed yourself the luxury of a non-biased objective perspective. You're a good soldier. The best kind. I no longer have any such obligation to military or civilian leadership. If I were in your position, I'd probably be vigorously defending my choices, and likely be better at it than you are. 😄

Aid and comfort to the enemy, eh? By arguing about Russia in a thread about the Chinese on forum which, (again, let's be honset) isn't exactly the most-visited website? I appreciate the promotion of my importance in your delusion of grandeur, but I'm aiding the enemy about as much as you're harming it here.

Someone posted something around here about the Chinese being on the verge of collapse. Russia is having the very same internal domestic problems. Economic woes, population collapse, etc. Russia was doing perfectly fine digging their own grave. Again, in the course of two years they've been unable to project their military power more than a couple hundred kms into their own front yard. And this is the major geopolitical threat you feared was going to steamroll the European continent? As you well know, irrational fear is still an extremely effective propaganda tool to motivate people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. Did you take the shots because you believe in it, or were fearful of what you were told would happen if you didn't? You seem like the type of person that could justify most anything with an ounce of fear. Not good.

On 8/15/2023 at 4:12 PM, Lawman said:

Even if you advocate for not participating in the Ukraine conflict, you can formulate an argument which doesn’t use Russian disinformation and propaganda literally put together, manufactured, manipulated, and amplified by them for their express desire to help their cause on the battlefield. And when you puff up and scream about your 1st amendment right to repeat that propaganda when it’s pointed out to you, or try some moral platitude of “both sides” in the way you are now, that just paints you as a stooge. You are literally carrying Russia’s water for them when you make your argument that way.

Oh, really? What would those arguments be? List them. I could give you a dozen and you would simply say that they're all Russian disinformation and propaganda. It's an easy out. You're no different than anyone at MSNBC. Deliver the approved perspective while simultaneously shouting "MISINFORMATION! DISINFORMATION! MALINFORATION!" at everything contradictory. It's weak and transparent, but the funny thing is: you actually seem to believe it. It's the same projection we see from your side on nearly every issue. Accuse others of doing the very same thing you are.

And when you say I "puff up and scream about the First Amendment", you seem to be mocking it.

Honest question: Do you believe I should be restricted from saying the things I'm saying here because you've deemed them false propaganda and giving "aid and comfort to the enemy"?

Lawman, as a gesture of good faith, allow me to disseminate some anti-Russian information from an official Ukrainian outlet to demonstrate that I'm not wholly opposed to promoting your side of the argument.

https://twitter.com/SarahAshtonLV/status/1691105018215317504?s=20

Edited August 17, 2023 by gearhog

[Lawman]

Oh, really? What would those arguments be? List them. I could give you a dozen and you would simply say that they're all Russian disinformation and propaganda. It's an easy out. You're no different than anyone at MSNBC. Deliver the approved perspective while simultaneously shouting "MISINFORMATION! DISINFORMATION! MALINFORATION!" at everything contradictory. It's weak and transparent, but the funny thing is: you actually seem to believe it. It's the same projection we see from your side on nearly every issue. Accuse others of doing the very same thing you are.
And when you say I "puff up and scream about the First Amendment", you seem to be mocking it.
Honest question: Do you believe I should be restricted from saying the things I'm saying here because you've deemed them false propaganda and giving "aid and comfort to the enemy"?
Lawman, as a gesture of good faith, allow me to disseminate some anti-Russian information from an official Ukrainian outlet to demonstrate that I'm not wholly opposed to promoting your side of the argument.
https://twitter.com/SarahAshtonLV/status/1691105018215317504?s=20

What a really long winded way of saying “I’m gonna post propaganda from Russia, because it supports my ideological desires, and fact checking would limit my argument too much for it to possibly be effective.” It’s also pretty clear you simply don’t understand or care about the impacts of sharing Russian social media propaganda across multiple sites and domains and how that effects its persistent presence in the general internet town square.

It’s been pointed out to you the clear “truths” you’ve been spouting off on that are manufactured Russian disinformation campaigns or narratives. If you’re dumb enough to keep shouting about them please let everybody know you’ve turned into that crazy uncle that emails/Facebook messages chain crap they found on Reddit.


Oh look… your posting from Twitter. What a wonderful place for you to find “facts.”


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[gearhog]

17 minutes ago, Lawman said:

 

 I moved the discussion to the Russian thread.

Cheers.

[Biff_T]

I heard they're starting to put less orange chicken into your order at Panda Express, the Chinese are asking for it. 

[HeyEng]

The DIA responded to a FOIA request from the Black Vault about the origin of Covid and they released a very heavily redacted document revealing very little information in their effort to clear up the mystery of COVID’s origins!

https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/dia-releases-heavily-redacted-documents-on-covid-19-origin-raises-more-questions-than-answers/?fbclid=IwAR1ecaNxh1LQQpbUkK-SIWFUn_-Op1UwPzR9CNDy6M-5hHa2RFznk_nEi9w_aem_AfIAp6C21UOEbBJR9GdmIG9PLIA3ZA_Ix7Tgs86oFJDIrmFM8VfkBcZYOZiiiVTtrlQ