China & Chinese Shenanigans

[Guest]

3 hours ago, pawnman said:

They won't be the first to think that way, and they likely won't be the last. 

Again...I wish them all the success we had there.  I don't see them "conquering" Afghanistan short of killing every man, woman, and child in the country and moving Chinese citizens in. 

Have thought the same. Would it be that far of a stretch to think that China wouldn't do exactly that? Thinking of Mao Zedong killing 45,000,000 people in four years.

[ViperMan]

9 hours ago, Prozac said:

The Soviets sure as shit didn’t have any restrictive ROE and they couldn’t civilize that place. The Chinese, in my experience, are a clown show & I can’t see them doing much better. 

The Soviets lacked the technology and were also fighting us, albeit through a three-letter. Could they have won had they not been facing Stinger missiles? Maybe. It sure made it more difficult for them to make any headway, though.

Maybe China is a clown show. Time will tell. I don't think they hold any illusions about civilizing AFG, though - like we did.

Bottom line - "victory" depends on how you define it. China's definition of victory, and therefore their objectives, won't be like ours.

[ClearedHot]

China will not be constrained by silly things such as collateral damage or human rights. 

[pawnman]

6 hours ago, ViperMan said:

The Soviets lacked the technology and were also fighting us, albeit through a three-letter. Could they have won had they not been facing Stinger missiles? Maybe. It sure made it more difficult for them to make any headway, though.

Maybe China is a clown show. Time will tell. I don't think they hold any illusions about civilizing AFG, though - like we did.

Bottom line - "victory" depends on how you define it. China's definition of victory, and therefore their objectives, won't be like ours.

I'm sure they'll be more brutal and a little more free with their weapons...but I don't see them defending a 500 mile oil pipeline through the heart of Afghanistan successfully.  A couple motivated jihadis with AK-47s and an IED could disrupt the pipeline at any point.

[hockeydork]

My thoughts on China in Afghanistan, not a veteran, probably not worth jack but please feel free to tell me how wrong I am or to STFU with my armchair quarterbacking:

 

People fight for a few reasons: food/water, territory, and resources/wealth, and ideology. Ideology being the most complex to deal with, because if can often result in an irrational enemy. Strapping suicide bomb vests on and martyring yourself isn’t rational, nor is flying a 767 into a building, no matter how strong your religious belief in an afterlife. I think the outcome in Afghanistan was because we wanted to fight them like they were us. Like they were somehow close to being on our spectrum of being a “rational people”. Rational people don’t lop prisoner’s heads off on camera. Monsters do. We wanted to humanely kill monsters, so that we didn’t become them, which is indeed a noble effort, but at the very least wasn't conducted in the correct fashion. . We thought “if we kill enough of them, they’ll get the hint”. But they are like a tumor, you have to get ALL of it. We tried to be nicer to the civilian population than the extremists, and hoped it would turn the civilian population against them. Nice guys finish last sometimes. Apparently it didn’t work, or at least not enough, because you’d have thought civilians would have fought tooth and nail to repel the Taliban as they started advancing, if they were THAT scared of living under them. Think about if you were being warned that the Mexican drug cartels were going to be coming up and entering Texas, and the police would be leaving in three months. Would not every Texan arm themselves to the teeth and start shooting at the first sight of cartel? I know I would. I’ve seen enough videos of cartel violence to know life under them is not life at all. So to me, apparently the civilian pop is either in cahoots with them more than anybody thought, or don’t think they’re bad enough to warrant serious conflict with them.

If China enters and tries their nice guy “economic strategy”, where “people who work 9-5 jobs don’t have time for terrorism”. Good luck, they’ll be just as doomed as we are, because in the end, terrorists aren’t fighting because they’re bored/don’t have a job, they’re fighting because they’re bat shit crazy/dumb/don’t value their own lives/have under developed brainpower. Their stupidity is what makes them so dangerous. Don’t confuse stupidity with bravery. They aren’t brave, they’re dumb as bricks. We may have our qualms in America with China, but in the end they are still the civilized world. They like nice cars, TV, air conditioning, music. Eventually they’ll see the Chinese as invaders, and it won’t be long before they turn on them and start using the same tactics on them as they did us once the Chinese start pillaging their homeland.

If China enters and wants to succeed, they can’t be nicer than the extremists, they have to be scarier, a lot scarier. They’ll need to make being an extremist in Afghanistan scarier than being a Jew in Nazi Germany. That means becoming the monsters they aim to defeat, brutalizing loads of innocent people to get one extremist hiding in the gen pop and not thinking twice about it. Making people terrified at just the thought of being accused to be an extremist so that sympathizers cannot get away with hiding among the regular population. If they do this, then they’ll basically end up doing America’s dirty work for us, but at the risk of enraging millions of middle easterners in other countries who will than turn to extremism and start hating the Muslim killing Chinese “invaders”. A pro for us would be it is a major distraction for them from Taiwan. 

Way I see it, they’re in for a serious fight and screwed either way too. Best case scenario for the world is too get everybody out of that place who helped us and wall the place off. Have a multi-national agreement that if significant terrorism starts flowing out of there again, a massive multi-national, multi-million man army is going to go cave by cave until everyone there has learned why it’s a really bad idea to attack the civilized world.

You have to get all of the Tumor. Not 90 percent, not 95 percent. ALL of it. You don't kill cancer humanely, because cancer doesn't kill you humanely. 

[jazzdude]

China isn't looking to change Afghanistan like we were, they just want access. If they're willing to cut deals with the Taliban, they may get to a mutually agreeable position (say weapons and money in exchange for pipelines and access). China probably will be willing to let the Taliban do whatever they want in Afghanistan so long as they get their access.

What will be interesting is how China's treatment of Uighurs (as a Muslim minority in China) affects the Taliban's willingness to work with China.

The challenge we faced was trying to change their way of life and culture to match US culture and ideals (and largely ignoring what they value culturally). That creates a lot of resistance (and violence) that China might not see since China's goals would likely be different.

[hockeydork]

1 hour ago, jazzdude said:

China isn't looking to change Afghanistan like we were, they just want access. If they're willing to cut deals with the Taliban, they may get to a mutually agreeable position (say weapons and money in exchange for pipelines and access). China probably will be willing to let the Taliban do whatever they want in Afghanistan so long as they get their access.

What will be interesting is how China's treatment of Uighurs (as a Muslim minority in China) affects the Taliban's willingness to work with China.

The challenge we faced was trying to change their way of life and culture to match US culture and ideals (and largely ignoring what they value culturally). That creates a lot of resistance (and violence) that China might not see since China's goals would likely be different.

I hear ya, but looking backwards to me they seem like a not so business savy bunch:

Some idiots decide to pull an unprovoked David vs Goliath move and bomb the US because of our supposed atrocities, Taliban doesn't go "here's the guys that did it, feel free to have at them and leave us alone". A costly 20 year war ensues in which while they "got us", im sure dudes on hear "got them" plenty too.

So in come the Chineese, which while different than the US, is still up the same alley in terms of "superpower" way of life. IMO at the moment Americans dont hate Chineese people, and Chineese peope dont hate us, we are just sparring/competing which leads to obvious "fears" of each other/distrust and there are some unfortunate tinder box disagreements over Taiwan. We want the status quo to stay, the Chineese understandbly want to at least be our power peers. I pray the competition stays friendly. Like you pointed out with their treatment of Muslims, I dont see how they are going to be any better in the eyes of the Taliban than US or the Soviets. What makes the Chineese NOT infidels? The Taliban are just gunna shake hands for some money and weapons? How long till they decide they've had enough/feel used and want the Chineese out of the homeland? 

Also, could anyone in China possibly think it's a good idea to further arm the cave people in the region they want access too, who have proven they love being the thorn in the ass of the other two super powers?  Sounds like a really dumb idea to me to think it'll go any differently this time around.

I can't reconile how these guys are gunna figure out a way to work nicely with China, nor China with them, long term. The cultural differences are still massive. If China is getting trigger happy to stretch it's legs in a confrontation with Taiwan, I can't see them investing in Afghanistan and just trusting a bunch of nut jobs who fundamentally already must hate them to "work nicely with them". If they do I'd bet my but they're drawing up battle plans for how they wanna clean house if the Taliban don't like being under Chineese rule...I mean, "influence."

Idk, time will tell, like you said. Either way I hope America looks to the limitless future, I hope we go to Mars, push the bounds of technology and medicine, innovating and inspiring people to want to be us, while carrying one big ass stick we aren't afraid to swing if they dont. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, hockeydork said:

Either way I hope America looks to the limitless future, I hope we go to Mars, push the bounds of technology and medicine, innovating and inspiring people to want to be us, while carrying one big ass stick we aren't afraid to swing if they dont. 

You're going to have to get more patriots involved in government and institutions to make that happen; and I hope it does happen.

[Clark Griswold]

What if they (the PRC) are positioning themselves to negotiate and get the 10-15K American Citizens out when/if the Taliban close Bagram and tell us to get out in 6.9 hours or else?  

If the Bobs at the Puzzle Palace are saying we don't have the capacity wouldn't it be convenient and a huge embarrassment to your enemy to release his people to his other enemy?  That they were the ones who negotiated their peaceful transfer out of country?

If I were the PRC, I'd be calling the Taliban to negotiate this humiliation to my main enemy.

[gearhog]

I recently spoke to a friend who is flying cargo in and out of China. He wanted to tell me about the way foreign aircrews are treated. Maybe someone here can speak to the COVID processing lines there.

Apparently, China has done a great job in making sure every citizen believes COVID is a US biological weapon. As such, much of the chinese population is united against a common enemy. This article has been circulated by the CCP to every major news outlet, and nearly all are state owned. It is also circulated on social media.

You can use Chrome or Google Translate to read here: https://www.news.cn/politics/2021-08/29/c_1127807097.htm

"Everyone Can Feel a Profound Change is Underway!

China is currently facing an increasingly severe and complex international environment. The United States is implementing increasingly severe military threats, economic and technological blockades, financial strikes, political and diplomatic siege against China, and is launching biological warfare, cyber warfare, and public opinion against China. Wars and space wars have increasingly launched a color revolution against China through the fifth column within China. If at this time, we have to rely on those big capitalists as the main force of anti-imperialist and anti-hegemony, and are still catering to the American nipple strategy, so that our young generation will lose their strong and masculine glory, then we don’t need enemies to fight. I fell first, just like the Soviet Union back then, letting the country collapse, letting the country's wealth be looted, and letting the people fall into serious disaster. Therefore, the profound changes currently taking place in China are precisely in response to the current severe and complicated international situation, precisely in response to the brutal and ferocious attacks that the United States has begun to launch against China."

Chinese sabre-rattling is nothing new, but it has escalated significantly beyond a point where we could previously dismiss it as just China talkin' trash. China must think now is the time to capitalize on the social, financial, military and political chaos that we're experiencing here. They're going to make a move soon.

Buy your Christmas gifts early.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202109/1234177.shtml

 

 

[Clark Griswold]

I recently spoke to a friend who is flying cargo in and out of China. He wanted to tell me about the way foreign aircrews are treated. Maybe someone here can speak to the COVID processing lines there.
Apparently, China has done a great job in making sure every citizen believes COVID is a US biological weapon. As such, much of the chinese population is united against a common enemy. This article has been circulated by the CCP to every major news outlet, and nearly all are state owned. It is also circulated on social media.
You can use Chrome or Google Translate to read here: https://www.news.cn/politics/2021-08/29/c_1127807097.htm
"Everyone Can Feel a Profound Change is Underway!
China is currently facing an increasingly severe and complex international environment. The United States is implementing increasingly severe military threats, economic and technological blockades, financial strikes, political and diplomatic siege against China, and is launching biological warfare, cyber warfare, and public opinion against China. Wars and space wars have increasingly launched a color revolution against China through the fifth column within China. If at this time, we have to rely on those big capitalists as the main force of anti-imperialist and anti-hegemony, and are still catering to the American nipple strategy, so that our young generation will lose their strong and masculine glory, then we don’t need enemies to fight. I fell first, just like the Soviet Union back then, letting the country collapse, letting the country's wealth be looted, and letting the people fall into serious disaster. Therefore, the profound changes currently taking place in China are precisely in response to the current severe and complicated international situation, precisely in response to the brutal and ferocious attacks that the United States has begun to launch against China."
Chinese sabre-rattling is nothing new, but it has escalated significantly beyond a point where we could previously dismiss it as just China talkin' trash. China must think now is the time to capitalize on the social, financial, military and political chaos that we're experiencing here. They're going to make a move soon.
Buy your Christmas gifts early.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202109/1234177.shtml
 
 

Yup, constant propaganda can set a train in motion not easy to stop. I think it was Shirer in Rise and Fall of the Third Reich said WW2 in Europe past a point was inevitable as a generation of Germans had grown up / accepted that their problems and frustrations were the results of others and that they deserved to take by force and settle scores what was rightfully theirs. Even if their leaders wanted to slow or stop the train, their public and power structures that support and enable authoritarian regimes would not accept anything but aggression.

Paraphrasing and it’s been 20+ years since I read that tome (highly recommended btw) so forgive any unintentional changes to that idea but I could see how this could happen.

Saw two videos pop up in my feed speculating on Chinese potential aggression.

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[DirkDiggler]

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/china/2021-09-13/chinas-afghanistan-dilemma

 

  Pretty good article discussing the challenges China will face regarding Afghanistan.  I found the part about China facing several areas of instability or challenges along multiple borders to be particularly thought provoking.   

[FLEA]

18 hours ago, torqued said:

I recently spoke to a friend who is flying cargo in and out of China. He wanted to tell me about the way foreign aircrews are treated. Maybe someone here can speak to the COVID processing lines there.

Apparently, China has done a great job in making sure every citizen believes COVID is a US biological weapon. As such, much of the chinese population is united against a common enemy. This article has been circulated by the CCP to every major news outlet, and nearly all are state owned. It is also circulated on social media.

You can use Chrome or Google Translate to read here: https://www.news.cn/politics/2021-08/29/c_1127807097.htm

"Everyone Can Feel a Profound Change is Underway!

China is currently facing an increasingly severe and complex international environment. The United States is implementing increasingly severe military threats, economic and technological blockades, financial strikes, political and diplomatic siege against China, and is launching biological warfare, cyber warfare, and public opinion against China. Wars and space wars have increasingly launched a color revolution against China through the fifth column within China. If at this time, we have to rely on those big capitalists as the main force of anti-imperialist and anti-hegemony, and are still catering to the American nipple strategy, so that our young generation will lose their strong and masculine glory, then we don’t need enemies to fight. I fell first, just like the Soviet Union back then, letting the country collapse, letting the country's wealth be looted, and letting the people fall into serious disaster. Therefore, the profound changes currently taking place in China are precisely in response to the current severe and complicated international situation, precisely in response to the brutal and ferocious attacks that the United States has begun to launch against China."

Chinese sabre-rattling is nothing new, but it has escalated significantly beyond a point where we could previously dismiss it as just China talkin' trash. China must think now is the time to capitalize on the social, financial, military and political chaos that we're experiencing here. They're going to make a move soon.

Buy your Christmas gifts early.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202109/1234177.shtml

 

 

So as someone looking at future Cargo, what have things looked like in an out of Hong Kong with foreign aircrews? I'm particularly concerned about that because HKs new National Security law is 1.) Retroactive 2.) Applies to foreigners 3.) Applies to actions made outside of Chinese territory. 

The implications of the above is frightening. If you've ever made a free HK or even a post about the Tibetan flag, you are at risk for being indefinitely detained entering Hong Kong. 

[gearhog]

15 minutes ago, FLEA said:

So as someone looking at future Cargo, what have things looked like in an out of Hong Kong with foreign aircrews? I'm particularly concerned about that because HKs new National Security law is 1.) Retroactive 2.) Applies to foreigners 3.) Applies to actions made outside of Chinese territory. 

The implications of the above is frightening. If you've ever made a free HK or even a post about the Tibetan flag, you are at risk for being indefinitely detained entering Hong Kong. 

This was how it was explained to me. Not saying this is how it is, just repeating what I was told.

When you leave the plane, you are appointed escorts in hazmat gear. They take you to a closed wing of the passenger terminal that is used entirely for aircrew processing. The lines can be very long and waits can be hours. You first do the rapid test. If positive, you're screwed. Quarantined.

Next is the interview. Some degree of personal information is gathered. My friend said it's assumed they are checking you out online.

"Have you ever had COVID?, Has anyone in your family ever had COVID? Have you been near anyone that has had COVID? Etc, etc, etc."

The right answer is always, "No". Apparently, one company had 3 pilots screw Ups those questions and were told they were to be quarantined at a COVID facility for 28 days. I think the company had to make some frantic phone calls to get them back home.

If you pass the tests, you're escorted all the way to your hotel room, and you're not allowed to leave until the escorted van ride back to the airport.

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by torqued

[herkbum]

So as someone looking at future Cargo, what have things looked like in an out of Hong Kong with foreign aircrews? I'm particularly concerned about that because HKs new National Security law is 1.) Retroactive 2.) Applies to foreigners 3.) Applies to actions made outside of Chinese territory. 
The implications of the above is frightening. If you've ever made a free HK or even a post about the Tibetan flag, you are at risk for being indefinitely detained entering Hong Kong. 

Just flew into Hong Kong earlier this week. Granted we only did a turn, download and upload. We don’t over night there now, may change later. No issues. Locals were masked up but friendly. No interaction with officials. Had 36 or so hours off in Incheon, which is where we typically RON.


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[Guest]

8 hours ago, FLEA said:

So as someone looking at future Cargo, what have things looked like in an out of Hong Kong with foreign aircrews? I'm particularly concerned about that because HKs new National Security law is 1.) Retroactive 2.) Applies to foreigners 3.) Applies to actions made outside of Chinese territory. 

The implications of the above is frightening. If you've ever made a free HK or even a post about the Tibetan flag, you are at risk for being indefinitely detained entering Hong Kong. 

Is it really any different than our own nation at this point? Bad think? Job lost, media articles defaming you, Department of Homeland Security labeling your a homegrown violent extremist, you become marked. Attend a protest? Put on a no-fly list. Due process to get off it? Non-existent.

Edited September 14, 2021 by dogfish78

[GrndPndr]

The level of Chinese meddling in other societies and even UN processes, all for bolstering their Nationalism, should frighten everyone.  Imagine you applying for a grant to the UN for a music scholarship, and then be turned down because you said "Taiwan."  But changing that to Taiwan Province of China is okay, and you're magically approved.  China looks at every little thing which comes before the UN, they seek every avenue to further their influence and stature.

Conversely, every bit of US nationalism is assailed by the woke crowd.  So tiring.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, GrndPndr said:

The level of Chinese meddling in other societies and even UN processes, all for bolstering their Nationalism, should frighten everyone.  Imagine you applying for a grant to the UN for a music scholarship, and then be turned down because you said "Taiwan."  But changing that to Taiwan Province of China is okay, and you're magically approved.  China looks at every little thing which comes before the UN, they seek every avenue to further their influence and stature.

Conversely, every bit of US nationalism is assailed by the woke crowd.  So tiring.

🇺🇸 Nationalist-gang rise up! 🇺🇸

It's almost as if caring for your own people first is the best policy?

Note for some of you, our "own people" does not include: Israel, other nations receiving billions in foreign aid from the U.S., corporations, illegal aliens, and dual-citizens such as some members of Congress who don't hold a 100% allegiance to our nation.

[ClearedHot]

IMHO China is FAR closer to going after Taiwan than most believe.  In addition to the rhetoric they have significantly ramped up military actions near Taiwan.  Over the past 12 months they have launched ever increasing tests of Taiwan airspace.  A few months ago the air packages were 20+ airplanes with one big push of 40+ aircraft including a large number of bombers and AEW aircraft.  Last week another large force package crossed the Taiwan ADIZ, including nuclear capable bombers.  Strong messaging and shaping for their ultimate goal of unification.

[gearhog]

9 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

IMHO China is FAR closer to going after Taiwan than most believe.  In addition to the rhetoric they have significantly ramped up military actions near Taiwan.  Over the past 12 months they have launched ever increasing tests of Taiwan airspace.  A few months ago the air packages were 20+ airplanes with one big push of 40+ aircraft including a large number of bombers and AEW aircraft.  Last week another large force package crossed the Taiwan ADIZ, including nuclear capable bombers.  Strong messaging and shaping for their ultimate goal of unification.

Apparently, they really didn't like yesterday's "AUKUS" announcement.

Chinese state media outlet, the Global Times:

"However, no matter how Australia arms itself, it is still a running dog of the US. We advise Canberra not to think that it has the capability to intimidate China if it acquires nuclear-powered submarines and offensive missiles. If Australia dares to provoke China more blatantly because of that, or even find fault militarily, China will certainly punish it with no mercy.

As Australia participates in the US-led strategic siege of China, it should remain self-aware and take a position that matches its strength. If it acts with bravado to show its allegiance to the US and takes the most prominent position in the US' anti-China strategy, especially by being militarily assertive, then Canberra will most likely become a target of Beijing's countermeasures so as to send a warning to others. Thus, Australian troops are also most likely to be the first batch of Western soldiers to waste their lives in the South China Sea."

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202109/1234459.shtml

Please save us, General Milley!

[Clark Griswold]

The Aussies like Japan, SK and anyone else there with the means and desire to not have a Chinese boot in your ass one day need to go ahead a nuke up.

Yeah the first years will be scary but no more than now, we’re too comprised by short sighted interests who would and do turn a blind eye to their aggression and atrocities now, I don’t think it’s a sure bet we would come in a timely manner.

Have your own gun and a good police department in your neighborhood, with both your own deterrent and a larger force to call on your chances of not being turned into a puppet state or being cowed increase dramatically.


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[M2]

 

[bfargin]

Sadly that sounds like US policy too. we spend millions/maybe billion each year on cheap China crap so we can shop at the dollar store and Walmart at prices that seems too low to be true on many products. It ends up being cheaper to ship raw material to China and other asian countries for processing and assembly and then ship it back than for us to build it here?! No wonder we don't make jack shit anymore. I read recently that there is only one US facility that still makes nails. Even most of our ammo is made/assembled overseas now.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, bfargin said:

Sadly that sounds like US policy too. we spend millions/maybe billion each year on cheap China crap so we can shop at the dollar store and Walmart at prices that seems too low to be true on many products. It ends up being cheaper to ship raw material to China and other asian countries for processing and assembly and then ship it back than for us to build it here?! No wonder we don't make jack shit anymore. I read recently that there is only one US facility that still makes nails. Even most of our ammo is made/assembled overseas now.

Globalism has destroyed the U.S.A. Time to reverse it.

[hockeydork]

23 hours ago, bfargin said:

Sadly that sounds like US policy too. we spend millions/maybe billion each year on cheap China crap so we can shop at the dollar store and Walmart at prices that seems too low to be true on many products. It ends up being cheaper to ship raw material to China and other asian countries for processing and assembly and then ship it back than for us to build it here?! No wonder we don't make jack shit anymore. I read recently that there is only one US facility that still makes nails. Even most of our ammo is made/assembled overseas now.

Doesn't appear to have worked, but I have always had this backward thought that maybe by trading heavily with China, they would "see the light" slowly over time, thus preventing a large scale conflict and aggression by intertwining their economy with the west. 

When they abolished term limits, it was game over. Only reason someone abolishes term limits is because they love power. What do people who love power do eventually? They conquer shit. 

Playing nice with the bully didn't work. If Aussies can see the writing on the wall...time to arm up.