Save the A-10: Give It to the Army

[Warrior]

Couldn't decide whether to start a new thread, post this in the thread about the 2 star saying shit he shouldn't, here or the "what's wrong with the AF" thread as an example of what's right, but this is an example of a bro doing good work.

DFC with valor - these are the stories we need to be telling about OEF

https://www.luke.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123437149#.VMLAIOf1Hrs.facebook

[backseatdriver]

Couldn't decide whether to start a new thread, post this in the thread about the 2 star saying shit he shouldn't, here or the "what's wrong with the AF" thread as an example of what's right, but this is an example of a bro doing good work.

DFC with valor - these are the stories we need to be telling about OEF

https://www.luke.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123437149#.VMLAIOf1Hrs.facebook

Sounds like a helluva mission - wonder why it took 7 6 years to award the medal?

Edited January 25, 2015 by backseatdriver

[xcraftllc]

Please excuse me while I put in my 2 cents on this thread. I can tell you that this discussion is an exercise in futility for many reasons (there isn't nearly enough time and space here to list them all). I don't know everything, but as a combat experienced Army attack pilot who is in the process of transitioning to the Air Force, I think my 2 cents hold some value on this topic.

First and foremost, the people who already mentioned it are dead right; the money and logistics alone will prevent this from happening.

Again this is my 2 cents, but if money and logistics were not an issue, it would still be a horrible idea. This is not to discount what the OP said with regard to WO's ability to effectively employ highly complex aircraft in combat. I am myself a WO. Many of us have degrees, and some are even former commissioned guys who gave up their commission just to fly more.

To me, the problem doesn't, and never will, lie in Army Aviation. The problem is the Army as an organization overall. The Army politicians hate aviation (up until the point where they need us to accomplish their mission). The Army is a ground force, always will be, and will always focus on that. Much of the leadership are indeed very intelligent and respectable individuals who know and love what they do, but they do not, and never will, understand aviation. They over-scrutinize it, structure it as an infantry unit, dress it like an infantry unit, train it like an infantry unit, and run it like an infantry unit.

I could go on and on with more specifics (most of which people here couldn't relate to), but I don't care to bitch too much about my frustrations with the Army here. I'm a grown man and know that every organization has it's problems and politics. I'm just saying that even if it were possible, any such aircraft is better off in the AF's hands.

The AF is now, and will be for the foreseeable future, the most competent, capable, and effective employer of air power in the world (by a healthy margin). There are some damn good reasons why it separated from the Army in 1947, and those reasons are still valid today.

The system that the Army has is working fairly well at the moment, but that's more of a testament to the ability of the men and women of Army Aviation to work with the hand that the Army commanders have dealt them, and not so much an example of how the Army leadership knows how to run aviation.

Anyway back to my jalapeno corn practice, all I'm saying is I wouldn't bet the barn on this one.

Edited January 25, 2015 by xcraftllc

[Lord Ratner]

I could go on and on with more specifics (most of which people here couldn't relate to), but I don't care to bitch too much about my frustrations with the Army here.

Honestly, I'd love to hear some of this.

[busdriver]

Army Infantry leadership is extremely ignorant of the realities of aviation. I listened to an Army Apache O-3 tell a GO about his limited ability to support an operation given limited loiter time and distance to the nearest FARP and the GO's response was: "is that because of your crew rest?" I shit you not a one star thought his AH-64 crews were going to have crew rest issues 2 hours into an op. That telecon infuriates me to this day.

[xcraftllc]

Honestly, I'd love to hear some of this.

lol maybe if we run into each other at a squadron bar somewhere man. A couple interesting examples though: Army enlisted personnel are promoted based on a combination of points awarded from a generic Army-wide system, a board, and the demand for their specialty, unlike the Navy and AF which require knowledge tests in addition to such things to ensure that the individual isn't just good at playing the game or being "Hooah". Most of the board questions and points are awarded for infantry-style skill and knowledge completely unrelated to aviation aptitude. Also (and I wish I was making this up), they replaced our pickle suits with two piece uniforms that are no where near as fire retardant because they thought that the aviators were using the flight suits as a status symbol. There are many counters to that reason but I have on good word from people who were there during the policy change that the status symbol argument was indeed the main reason.

Still, I don't hate the Army, in fact, they gave me a huge opportunity and I'll cherish many memories for the rest of my life. Kinda one of those it was good, it was real, but not really good sorta things.

Army Infantry leadership is extremely ignorant of the realities of aviation. I listened to an Army Apache O-3 tell a GO about his limited ability to support an operation given limited loiter time and distance to the nearest FARP and the GO's response was: "is that because of your crew rest?" I shit you not a one star thought his AH-64 crews were going to have crew rest issues 2 hours into an op. That telecon infuriates me to this day.

Lol oh man, I remember one time down at Shank, the command at the time was Artillery. One day they spotted some guys setting up mortars. There was an Apache QRF ready to go but they decided to try to hit them with a 777 (of course missing horribly, it wasn't an Excalibur round or anything). It was only after they had fired a few shots all over the place as the guys were running away that they notified the Apache QRF. Of course by the time they got there, the dudes were long gone...

[Hueypilot]

I flew for the Army once upon a time and I echo the sentiment that the A-10 belongs in the USAF. The Army warrant officer fraternity was fun to be in, and flying helicopters low and slow was a blast...but the Army is organizationally handicapped to utilizing an aircraft like the A-10. Back in the Clinton days, we'd have our budget cut every FY because the Engineer and Infantry brigades that ran our state (I was ARNG) didn't understand why an aviation unit would need so much money...only when we had tons of guys going non-current did they transfer money back to us. It was always a budgetary mess, and we were always treated like ground vehicles. The command at the top really had no understanding of how aircraft were used.

[backseatdriver]

Lol oh man, I remember one time down at Shank, the command at the time was Artillery. One day they spotted some guys setting up mortars. There was an Apache QRF ready to go but they decided to try to hit them with a 777 (of course missing horribly, it wasn't an Excalibur round or anything). It was only after they had fired a few shots all over the place as the guys were running away that they notified the Apache QRF. Of course by the time they got there, the dudes were long gone...

Even better - holding an AC-130 off to engage a target with 105mm artillery. Key radio..."You guys know we have a hundred rounds of that onboard and can actually see what we're shooting at right?"

[Lawman]

Honestly, I'd love to hear some of this.

I'm one of the few Army Aviation guys lucky enough to have worked in a Joint SOC environment on a broadening assignment, even there you get a lot of he same dumb grunt questions and stupid statements.

We had a briefing and the deputy at a certain COCOM sitting next to a certain 4 star commanding that COCOM said "if you release the bomb are we sure it's going to impact the ground......" We were talking about GBU-49s so yeah pretty damn sure gravity still works and short of a worm hole that was going to happen.

Also I was the one guy in the theatre that flew helicopters (seriously we checked). The only one..... Had an Army full bird make me look like a liar and one of our partner Generals who took my recommendation to his bosses look like a moron when he talked to the foreign Air Force commander. Apparently he knew more about helicopters from his time as an infantry commander than I did having flown them most of the last decade.

I used to tell the AF guys I worked with, being Army to Army doesn't give us some better understanding or anything from the ground dudes. They ask us to do as much stupid infuriating shit as they ask you, the difference is I don't have an ALO to protect me when I tell them they are retarded. It's like we are the same moths, I'm just way closer to the fire.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Lawman

[xcraftllc]

being Army to Army doesn't give us some better understanding or anything from the ground dudes. They ask us to do as much stupid infuriating shit as they ask you, the difference is I don't have an ALO to protect me when I tell them they are retarded.

Word.

I saw an article by an airmchair general internet journalist who feels that the Air Force is unnecessary and should be reattached to the Army. The irony is indescribable. The Navy gets aviation cuz they have always existed in a fluid environment that requires specialized equipment and SMEs to be successful. The Marines...well... they're Marines so they kinda just do whatever it takes to accomplish the mission, largely with the Navy's help. The Army on the other hand doesn't care a bit since the sky is blue because god loves the infantry (the Army guys here know what I'm talking about).

Our Army, despite all its flaws, is by far the best Army in the world. That doesn't mean that they need organic aviation units to be successful. Half the time I think it gives ground force commanders a power and sense of entitlement that they haven't earned.

If anything, Army Aviation, including every kind of UAV, needs to be flagged under the Air Force. Not saying that's gonna happen, but the best thing that ever happened to our air power assets was the Key West Agreement.

[busdriver]

If anything, Army Aviation, including every kind of UAV, needs to be flagged under the Air Force. Not saying that's gonna happen, but the best thing that ever happened to our air power assets was the Key West Agreement.

Of course, not gonna happen. I'm not sure the JFACC would know what to do with helos if TACON went that way. I know I would certainly get rid of the coordinating altitude. That fucking thing has become a crutch and in some respects a hindrance.

But it did make me chuckle when the Army (I assume at the behest of Aviation branch leadership) moved the AH-64s up to higher echelons a couple years back. It's like they realized that air would always be short of demand and that penny packets don't work........ Fuck I just had an ACSC flash back.

[Lawman]

I don't want to see us moved out of the Army. Face it there are just too many holes in the dike for one JFACC to plug "fairly." We also perform duties that are specifically organic to the unit being supported (screen/guard, medevac, assault). The ground campaign would be bogged down if every time these units were getting ready to go somewhere they suddenly didn't have medevac because only so many assets available.

What's fucked us up is Afghanistan/Iraq doctrine. Our system is set up to work the way it did prior to everybody getting lazy and forgetting there is a reason we are structured the way we are. The over big crutch we need to get off is everybody gets more and everybody is infantry/ground centric. We send Air commission guys to work at ground elements so they can better understand how to support them, but we don't reverse it. You won't meet an infantry Major working in the 3 shop of a CAB to learn why treating aviation like jeeps and tanks is retarded.

[OverTQ]

And that MAJ and CW3 sent to the ground pounders are often utilized to fill additional duty requirements. IE detailed to jobs that have nothing to do with aviation and provide no value to the unit they serve. I had a chance to work at JRTC during the early portions of the war. The OC's were short handed so we would go and fill in as "advisors" and also bring our aircraft to actually support operations in the box. We walked into a BDE TOC once and the OC introduced us to the S3 who stared blankly at us before telling us to have a seat. 2.5 hours later we were still sitting there. What I found was that often ground guys were so absolutely lacking in how to utilize us, they wouldn't. I started working around the situation by asking what they were doing and giving the "happy meal" options of how we could support. I think the USMC does it much better. Every Batt has a AV CPT and Every BDE has a AV MAJ. Their pilots are FACs. All aircraft are integrated in their plans. The Army and AF have their own ideas about how to win a war and their ideas are often not the same.

[MD]

I think the USMC does it much better. Every Batt has a AV CPT and Every BDE has a AV MAJ. Their pilots are FACs. All aircraft are integrated in their plans. The Army and AF have their own ideas about how to win a war and their ideas are often not the same.

The USMC is small enough to "get it". Whereas the Army is too big with too much of a ground mentality across the board with its various maneuver elements to have time to "deal" with aviation. Which is really their loss if they refuse to even try. Agree with your last statement, which is why I personally feel the USAF needs to get out of the CAS business as a primary mission; allow the Army to fend for itself in that way and only provide support as necessary or when requested. Would obviously be a major doctrinal change and the Army would (hopefully) be forced to reevaluate how it does business with what is essentially an airborne maneuver element, supporting the infantry still, and take it serious in that way. Rather than leaving aviation on the shelf untouched or misused as they have been. Whether or not that forces the Army to "get it" will be the Army's problem, no longer the AFs. The AF would still train for CAS in order to provide it when needed, it just wouldn't be one of their main jobs anymore. Maybe a doctrinal change like that would legally force the Army to boost aviation to a far better seat at the table, along with the ground elements.

[MD]

they replaced our pickle suits with two piece uniforms that are no where near as fire retardant because they thought that the aviators were using the flight suits as a status symbol. There are many counters to that reason but I have on good word from people who were there during the policy change that the status symbol argument was indeed the main reason.

I remember in the 90s, working as an ground FAC taking part in an exercise with 1-503/2 ID. At the Batallion briefing and roc drill, there were two distinct things I remember seeing and hearing. When the few helicopters from the aviation elements that were participating landed in the field and shut down; the crews (wearing the woodland BDU two-piece flightsuits) exited their birds, removed their survival vests and helmets, donned their green LBE belts/suspenders, woodland PASGT helmets, and painted their faces up in woodland camo facepaint, all before walking over from their birds to attend the brief. Following the brief, they returned to their birds, wiped their faces clean, doffed the ground gear, and "became" pilots again. Very weird to see. Especially as me and my TACP members seemed out of place, as we had BDU ranger caps on with our uniforms, and not helmets.

The S-2, during his brief of the enemy order of battle, when talking about the various threats, kept mentioning "SA-7 sites, located here, here and here...and covering the western and eastern flanks....." on the map. As if an SA-7.....dude holding a MANPAD...is somehow akin to a fixed-SA-2 site, permanently located in that particular place on the map and pointing/aimed in particular direction(s). Odd.

Army was also weird when we'd go on and off post, if I as an officer was driving our CUCV or HMMWV, and one of my ETACs (what they were before JTACs) was sitting in the passenger seat. Something about officers driving tactical vehicles. And too, we kept getting told that to drive/ride in our own tactical vehicles on post, we were required to have our helmets on at all times per regulations, even though while an Army reg, we weren't in Army tactical vehicles at the time. Obviously, if riding in one of their tactical vehicles, it's do as the Romans do.

[TreeA10]

Army was also weird when we'd go on and off post, if I as an officer was driving our CUCV or HMMWV, and one of my ETACs (what they were before JTACs) was sitting in the passenger seat. Something about officers driving tactical vehicles. And too, we kept getting told that to drive/ride in our own tactical vehicles on post, we were required to have our helmets on at all times per regulations, even though while an Army reg, we weren't in Army tactical vehicles at the time. Obviously, if riding in one of their tactical vehicles, it's do as the Romans do.

The secret was using the AF or Army rule that was most advantageous to your given situation. During an ALO rotation to Ft. Irwin, we did the hurry up and wait thing in convoy formation starting at 9am prior to moving into the field at 4pm. I had the cover and windshield on my HMMWV and the Battalion Exec comes up and asks why we haven't removed those items like our Army brethren. My ETAC quickly pulls the appropriate reg saying we can keep it due to the radio gear. The Exec said, "When in Rome, you should do as the Romans do." My response was "I'm not a Roman." The driving of the Humvee did seem to irritate them so I always drove.

[Lawman]

I do feel the need to push a few weights on the blue side of the scale before this becomes an all Army bitchfest...

So out at gunnery staying in hard stand buildings and tents for the duration of the month... Our weather detachment of some 3 AF NCOs and a Maj decided that they were above staying in the field with the Army Joes. So they drove off the training site (in their own TMP when the battalion had 3 total so 1 for 4 dudes and 2 for the other 400) and found a guesthouse 45 minutes off the reservation because on post quarters weren't available.

This led to repeated moments of things like not having a TMP to go grab vital parts to get an aircraft up or take a guy the 3 hours back to home station when his wife went into labor. And the natural anger of seeing a bunch of freshly washed uniform wearing Airmen getting out of their TMP with bags of Taco Bell or Popeyes because they were above sleeping in the "field" with the unit they are embedded with.

[GKinnear]

I do feel the need to push a few weights on the blue side of the scale before this becomes an all Army bitchfest...

Why? We all had choices in life, I chose to get out of the Army and join the AF...

[Lawman]

Why? We all had choices in life, I chose to get out of the Army and join the AF...

More just saying we all live in glass houses. No service has the market cornered on stupid yet.

[Azimuth]

That sounds more like jealousy than stupidity.

[KState_Poke22]

I do feel the need to push a few weights on the blue side of the scale before this becomes an all Army bitchfest...

So out at gunnery staying in hard stand buildings and tents for the duration of the month... Our weather detachment of some 3 AF NCOs and a Maj decided that they were above staying in the field with the Army Joes. So they drove off the training site (in their own TMP when the battalion had 3 total so 1 for 4 dudes and 2 for the other 400) and found a guesthouse 45 minutes off the reservation because on post quarters weren't available.

This led to repeated moments of things like not having a TMP to go grab vital parts to get an aircraft up or take a guy the 3 hours back to home station when his wife went into labor. And the natural anger of seeing a bunch of freshly washed uniform wearing Airmen getting out of their TMP with bags of Taco Bell or Popeyes because they were above sleeping in the "field" with the unit they are embedded with.

Those 4 men are American heroes!

[OverTQ]

As someone who went from the AF to the Army, they both suck is many ways. Corporate culture is alive and well on both sides and it is often more important that killing bad guys.

[HU&W]

I do feel the need to push a few weights on the blue side of the scale before this becomes an all Army bitchfest...

So out at gunnery staying in hard stand buildings and tents for the duration of the month... Our weather detachment of some 3 AF NCOs and a Maj decided that they were above staying in the field with the Army Joes. So they drove off the training site (in their own TMP when the battalion had 3 total so 1 for 4 dudes and 2 for the other 400) and found a guesthouse 45 minutes off the reservation because on post quarters weren't available.

This led to repeated moments of things like not having a TMP to go grab vital parts to get an aircraft up or take a guy the 3 hours back to home station when his wife went into labor. And the natural anger of seeing a bunch of freshly washed uniform wearing Airmen getting out of their TMP with bags of Taco Bell or Popeyes because they were above sleeping in the "field" with the unit they are embedded with.

I don't see where they broke any rules.

[Lawman]

I don't see where they broke any rules.

When your embedded to support a unit you actually have to be embedded with that unit. Like I said, it tied a vehicle up permanently to provide trans for 4 guys who didn't want to sleep in a hard stand building and shower in a tent. That led to points where aircraft couldn't get parts expeditiously and slowed down operations because we now have 6 up birds instead of 7 etc. Bn commander finally put a stop to the stupidity but it's still a couple weeks of dumb.

If you were an ALO you wouldn't tell your parent Brigade "here is my cell number call me with your questions" because your afraid to go to the field would you?

[brabus]

I don't see where they broke any rules.

They probably didn't, but they were enormous dickhead prima donnas. I get Lawman's point - they hindered mission accomplishment all while saying, "fuck off, we're above you" to all the Army bros. I have many reasons for joining the AF instead of the Army, but I think you can only go so far with the "well you made your choice" when it comes to something like this.

Edited January 29, 2015 by brabus