Turning down an assignment but still have commitment

[ARAMP1]

Some bros were sitting around the flight office the other day and the subject came up and there was some conflicting info.

The scenario is that an individual has a year or so on his active duty service commitment and gets PCS orders. To take the orders would extend his ADSC. He doesn't want to extend his ADSC, so he turns down the orders. Can the AF move you anyway? Send you on a 365 or 179? Let you serve out your time where you're at? Other? What normally happens?

Edited February 2, 2014 by ARAMP1

[Skitzo]

They can move you anyways... several people have been moved to CVS and their PCS ADSC was waived.

[stract]

two dudes have done this in Rescue - turned down PCS orders. They were required to set a date of separation of their ADSC expiration date...neither got 365s, but they continued to deploy as normal in the community until their time was up.

[ARAMP1]

Interesting. Wonder how that would work if you were supposed to requal in an MWS. TDY enroute for 4-6 months of requal to get to your duty station for another 4-6 months. Plus TAPS, terminal leave, etc.

Edited February 2, 2014 by ARAMP1

[matmacwc]

I did it, they didn't move me with 8 months left. They could, and my PCS didn't involve any training, but AFPC told me they wouldn't move me.

[Herk Driver]

It's been said before, but yes, AFPC can waive the ADSC and move you anyway. Contrary to popular belief, you don't get 365's based off of these types of decisions. You can still be sent on a deployment. Your boss is required to have you home 30 days prior to your separation date, IIRC. No requirement to ensure you get terminal as you can sell back 60 days of your leave (needs of the AF).

[bbj77]

Does time on station come into play for 365s? One possible scenario for me is I could hit 4 years time on station when my ADSC 2 year PCS window starts. If I don't PCS before that and then turn one down after that and am told to stay put, does 5 and 6 year time on station send you to the top of the bad boy list or is that just a myth?

[ColoradoAviator]

Interesting. Wonder how that would work if you were supposed to requal in an MWS. TDY enroute for 4-6 months of requal to get to your duty station for another 4-6 months. Plus TAPS, terminal leave, etc.

If you are TDY for 4-6 months of requal chances are you are attending a formal flying training course (AETC usually) and will incur a 3-year ADSC -

[Warrior]

Does time on station come into play for 365s? One possible scenario for me is I could hit 4 years time on station when my ADSC 2 year PCS window starts. If I don't PCS before that and then turn one down after that and am told to stay put, does 5 and 6 year time on station send you to the top of the bad boy list or is that just a myth?

IIRC, there is a minimum TOS, but being around longer doesn't directly moe you up the list. It's all about your short tour return date.

I say it doesn't directly move you up the list, but if he guy ahead of you only has 1 week TOS, pretty sure it's coming your way. Make sense?

[C-21.Pilot]

IIRC, there is a minimum TOS, but being around longer doesn't directly moe you up the list. It's all about your short tour return date.

I say it doesn't directly move you up the list, but if he guy ahead of you only has 1 week TOS, pretty sure it's coming your way. Make sense?

33% correct. Your 365 vulnerability relies on 3 things: Short Tour Return Date, # of Short Tours, and Overseas Return Date -- some 365's also carry a rank requirement, but that's another story (+/- 1 rank to support).

In addition, you have to have a minimum of 45 days TOS (IIRC) to be deployable, and also, if you have done an AEF deployment, you are "safe" 6 months after your return. In addition, you have to have enough retainability (ADSC) to complete your deployment and return with 30 days left.

-- All of this information can be found on AEF Online thru the portal.

[sputnik]

Does time on station come into play for 365s? One possible scenario for me is I could hit 4 years time on station when my ADSC 2 year PCS window starts. If I don't PCS before that and then turn one down after that and am told to stay put, does 5 and 6 year time on station send you to the top of the bad boy list or is that just a myth?

Outside of 180s or 365s, if you have more than a year left they can just send you somewhere on a remote that needs filling. Doesn't have same 365 vulnerability rules that 21 mentioned above. Having two years retainability and turning down a PCS--I'd bet on a remote (some AFSCs are more likely than others though).

[Cap-10]

C-21 is right....

In order:

1) number of short tours

2) STRD

3) OSRD

BUT....(here is what happened at my last base when the gun squadrons were 6 on, home 12, basically getting ready to go, being gone, or in the 6 month home phase)

A 365 would drop to the base for a Capt 11F and the top 6-9 guys'll according to 1,2,3 hierarchy above were all in the Ops squadrons, so the #10 guy on the list, an FTU IP at the time, got the call from the bullpen.

Cap-10

[GMaster13]

If you are TDY for 4-6 months of requal chances are you are attending a formal flying training course (AETC usually) and will incur a 3-year ADSC -

Actually it depends how far into your UPT commitment you are. An additional ADSC for requal or IP upgrade cannot exceed your original 10 yr ADSC. See AFI 36-2107 Table 1.1. Note 1b.

"b. All manned or unmanned pilots, navigators, and air battle managers who began aviation service after 30 September 1997 will not incur any additional Advanced Flying Training (AFT)/Instructor Qualification ADSCs which extend beyond 6 or 10 years as applicable, of continuous or cumulative rated service. Rated service begins at the completion of training and awarding of wings for the rated specialty. They will still incur Permanent Change of Station (PCS), Professional Military Education (PME), and other non-AFT related ADSCs."

Edited February 2, 2014 by GMaster13

[Herk Driver]

C-21 is right....

In order:

1) number of short tours

2) STRD

3) OSRD

BUT....(here is what happened at my last base when the gun squadrons were 6 on, home 12, basically getting ready to go, being gone, or in the 6 month home phase)

A 365 would drop to the base for a Capt 11F and the top 6-9 guys'll according to 1,2,3 hierarchy above were all in the Ops squadrons, so the #10 guy on the list, an FTU IP at the time, got the call from the bullpen.

Cap-10

All of this...

365's are assigned based on requirements of the J-O-B and all who meet the basic criteria are then racked and stacked accordingly. They only look at those that aren't eliminated by dwell time, non-deployable due to just arriving on station, etc. You have to stop believing all the BS you hear about a guy getting screwed because he refused to PCS, submitted for VSP, etc.

I saw too many guys that were nearing the end of their UPT commitments getting tagged for a 365. If you looked further, they were getting tagged in order of STRD (none of them had OSRD or a previous short tour). There is much less behind the scenes trickery than many people give Big Blue credit for. There is an entire office that does nothing but the 365 assignments...they don't play favorites...ask your commanders who have talked to them.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Herk Driver

[Tank]

I PCS'd to an AETC base with less than 1 year left on my ADSC and never received a 3 year service commitment b/c I had already gone through PIT in my career. I got there in Feb, went to PIT from Mar-Jun and went on terminal in Jan.

Contact the correct person at AFPC and anything can be waived....

Edited February 2, 2014 by Tank

[nsplayr]

It's been said before, but yes, AFPC can waive the ADSC and move you anyway. Contrary to popular belief, you don't get 365's based off of these types of decisions. You can still be sent on a deployment. Your boss is required to have you home 30 days prior to your separation date, IIRC. No requirement to ensure you get terminal as you can sell back 60 days of your leave (needs of the AF).

Nailed it.

I just went though this. Got orders with a RNLTD within 1 year of the end of my commitment, did the 7-day option, got sent on the assignment anyways. It will be 11.9 months boots on the ground at my assignment, not counting terminal leave (~80 days). May have to do one last deployment that will basically prevent me from taking all that leave as terminal because, as herk driver said, terminal leave is at the discretion of your commander.

I would not recommend this path for many; I lucked out and have a great SQ/CC who isn't holding it against guys with DOSs, YMMV. Pro tip: don't "burn the bridge" if the assignment will add less than a year to your commitment.

Edited February 2, 2014 by nsplayr

[Learjetter]

Some bros were sitting around the flight office the other day and the subject came up and there was some conflicting info.

The scenario is that an individual has a year or so on his active duty service commitment and gets PCS orders. To take the orders would extend his ADSC. He doesn't want to extend his ADSC, so he turns down the orders. Can the AF move you anyway? Send you on a 365 or 179? Let you serve out your time where you're at? Other? What normally happens?

There's a reg that covers ADSCs (too lazy to look it up just now)...I'll paraphrase: if you decline the ADSC that accompanies PCS orders, it's the equivelant of a 7-day opt, and you will be forced to set a separation date at the end of your current ADSC.

ETA: and, yes, AFPC could still elect to move you w/o the ADSC, but it's very rare, and your Sep date stands.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Learjetter

[ColoradoAviator]

Actually it depends how far into your UPT commitment you are. An additional ADSC for requal or IP upgrade cannot exceed your original 10 yr ADSC. See AFI 36-2107 Table 1.1. Note 1b.

"b. All manned or unmanned pilots, navigators, and air battle managers who began aviation service after 30 September 1997 will not incur any additional Advanced Flying Training (AFT)/Instructor Qualification ADSCs which extend beyond 6 or 10 years as applicable, of continuous or cumulative rated service. Rated service begins at the completion of training and awarding of wings for the rated specialty. They will still incur Permanent Change of Station (PCS), Professional Military Education (PME), and other non-AFT related ADSCs."

I stand corrected - thanks for diving into that AFI and sharing the good news with everybody.

[pcola]

C-21 is right....

In order:

1) number of short tours

2) STRD

3) OSRD

BUT....(here is what happened at my last base when the gun squadrons were 6 on, home 12, basically getting ready to go, being gone, or in the 6 month home phase)

A 365 would drop to the base for a Capt 11F and the top 6-9 guys'll according to 1,2,3 hierarchy above were all in the Ops squadrons, so the #10 guy on the list, an FTU IP at the time, got the call from the bullpen.

Cap-10

The rank order is TECHNICALLY correct, however, don't think that having an ODSD is going to save you. I thought I was immune when I got the dreaded "highly vulnerable" notice due to my recent overseas return date. What I found out was that that piece of the puzzle only comes into play as a tie-breaker if you have the same # of short tours and same STRD as another unlucky schmuck. Then, and only then, will the ODSD come into play. And yes, I did get tagged with that 365. To AFPC, 365 assignment is strictly a numbers game. They don't care what job you're currently in, if you are at the top of their list of eligibles due to your old STRD, you're getting tagged. It is then up to your CC to reclama you; or up to you to 3-day opt. Bottom line: your vulnerability boils down to your # of short tours and STRD as compared to other qualified eligibles.

[albertschu]

The rank order is TECHNICALLY correct, however, ... What I found out was that that piece of the puzzle only comes into play as a tie-breaker if you have the same # of short tours and same STRD as another unlucky schmuck. Then, and only then, will the ODSD come into play. .

Isn't that why it is third on the list? What am I missing?

[pcola]

I guess you aren't missing anything…maybe I was the only dumbass. Regardless, I want to make sure that people understand that the ODSD essentially does nothing for you WRT 365 selection.

What Herk Driver says is usually golden. However when he said: "If you looked further, they were getting tagged in order of STRD (none of them had OSRD or a previous short tour)," it made me think that he was treating the ODSD as a discriminator and I wanted to clarify that it really isn't. Regardless of your ODSD, you will always be tagged in order of STRD (unless you have more than 1 short tour.)

I can't imagine a situation where two guys that both qualify for the same ITDY have the same number of short tours and also happen to have the same STRD and then actually have the ODSD come into play as a tie breaker. In other words, forget all about your ODSD, it does nothing for you.

Maybe that's evident to most people and I'm a retard (quite possible,) but to me it was not.

Edited February 3, 2014 by pcola

[C-21.Pilot]

From AFI 36-2110

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2110/afi36-2110.pdf

5.5.2. For Officers: If there are not enough volunteers, AFPC will use modified short tour

selection rules. Non Volunteers are prioritized based on number of short tours, short tour

return date (STRD) and overseas duty selection date (ODSD). Officers serving overseas long

tours may be used as a resource to fill these taskings. Officers must have sufficient time

remaining on their current tour (before DEROS) to be selected as a non-volunteer, i.e. 30-

days upon return from deployment to out-process their respective unit. Officers not selected

for promotion that have a mandatory DOS established and are otherwise not eligible for 3

day option (see Figure 5.2) are not eligible for selection as a non-volunteer unless they have

at least 7 months retainability following the expected deployment return date.

[NotADude]

Actually it depends how far into your UPT commitment you are. An additional ADSC for requal or IP upgrade cannot exceed your original 10 yr ADSC. See AFI 36-2107 Table 1.1. Note 1b.

"b. All manned or unmanned pilots, navigators, and air battle managers who began aviation service after 30 September 1997 will not incur any additional Advanced Flying Training (AFT)/Instructor Qualification ADSCs which extend beyond 6 or 10 years as applicable, of continuous or cumulative rated service. Rated service begins at the completion of training and awarding of wings for the rated specialty. They will still incur Permanent Change of Station (PCS), Professional Military Education (PME), and other non-AFT related ADSCs."

Requal or IP upgrade, no. "Cross-train," yes. See Note 1c. in the same table:

c. Rated officers who crossflow/retrain into another rated career field (e.g., an air battle manager who crossflows/retrains as a navigator or manned or unmanned pilot), crossflow/retrain to a different weapons system (basic qualification) or aircraft airframe will incur the full ADSC for that training even if that ADSC extends beyond the officer’s 6th or 10th year of rated service.

Maybe not a huge deal for most people, but I had a buddy who was a T-6 FAIP, flew F-15s (I think, all the pointy jets look the same) then incurred an additional ADSC when he went back to UPT as a T-38 IP. Also, for those currently flying the MC-12 that end up getting re-classed as an 11R (the horror!) and going on to fly something other than what they flew before, may incur an additional commitment. Not sure if that'll actually happen, but…the more you know.

[GKinnear]

Also, for those currently flying the MC-12 that end up getting re-classed as an 11R (the horror!) and going on to fly something other than what they flew before, may incur an additional commitment. Not sure if that'll actually happen, but…the more you know.

You don't necessarily have to re-cat. 11Ms flying RPAs who haven't recatted were held to an ADSC that went past the original UPT 10yrs.

[pcola]

From AFI 36-2110

https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2110/afi36-2110.pdf

5.5.2. For Officers: If there are not enough volunteers, AFPC will use modified short tour

selection rules. Non Volunteers are prioritized based on number of short tours, short tour

return date (STRD) and overseas duty selection date (ODSD). Officers serving overseas long

tours may be used as a resource to fill these taskings. Officers must have sufficient time

remaining on their current tour (before DEROS) to be selected as a non-volunteer, i.e. 30-

days upon return from deployment to out-process their respective unit. Officers not selected

for promotion that have a mandatory DOS established and are otherwise not eligible for 3

day option (see Figure 5.2) are not eligible for selection as a non-volunteer unless they have

at least 7 months retainability following the expected deployment return date.

Yes, I am very familiar with the verbiage in 36-2110 (one becomes intimately familiar with this reg when they've just been schwacked with a 365, trust me.) And what you just posted makes my point exactly. To me, this sentence "based on number of short tours, short tour return date (STRD) and overseas duty selection date (ODSD)" implies that the ODSD is actually a discriminator of equal consequence as compared to the short tour. This is NOT the case. You can have an ODSD of YESTERDAY and it won't matter if you have 0 short tours and your STRD is older than everybody else's. Its all in the interpretation, and unfortunately, the boss and I both had it wrong until AFPC was kind enough to explain.