Mexican Military incursion(s) into the United States

[SurelySerious]

And you want to limit human freedom for your own selfish reasons.

I think you like how your idea sounds. I hardly think you would like the reality of your idea.

[TreeA10]

They deport themselves from their home country for that reason, yet it's absurd to think that people would do the same here.

Yep, it's delusional.

Tree are you trying to make the case the entire u.s. is private property? If so, who holds the title? If you're not, why would you try to make a comparison with my private property?

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Let's see, I earn money that is my private property. The government then takes their cut. I'd like to limit that cut to those funds required for the operational needs of the nation and not any more. By allowing anyone and everyone to wander into our Continental Kegger and pull up a beer, we are now on the hook for education, for medical, and for ensuring basic nutrition and shelter. I could give you a quick little tour in our neck of the woods with a good number of non-english speaking elementary students or maybe hang out in the Emergency Room at a Fort Worth hospital with a whole lot more non-english speaking folks.

Government is not some obscure, distant relative. Government is "We the People." By saying "We" should pay for something, you are saying "I" should pay for something. And I vote no. If you want to pay for it, good for you, knock yourself out. And if you are going to talk the talk, you should walk the walk. Open up your home and wallet to anyone and everyone who needs the space. Like Thatcher said, socialism is easy until you run out of other peoples money.

That being said, I've had some nice conversations and associations with a PhD Chemist from Belarus, a couple engineers, Electrical and Nuclear from India, a doctor from Ireland, and a Veterinarian from Australia. All had amazing stories and are thriving here. I'll take all of those guys we can get.

[Vertigo]

You're not listening. Who said anything about socialism? What does government run industry have to do with allowing immigration to whomever wants it?

If a person immigrates here and is now included in our "tax base" (isn't that the gop mantra? Increase the tax base) then how are they not included in the "we" when it comes to supporting the educational and housing needs?

You voting no to pay for something is ok, but when I say no I'm some raving lunatic.

Funny how hypocrisy works.

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[hispeed7721]

And you want to limit human freedom for your own selfish reasons.

Going back to what Tree has been asking...why not open up your house and let anyone and everyone stay and use all your stuff until it's so run down and there's so little left they all just leave?

By not allowing that to happen, you're limiting human freedom for your own selfish reasons.

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If a person immigrates here and is now included in our "tax base" (isn't that the gop mantra? Increase the tax base) then how are they not included in the "we" when it comes to supporting the educational and housing needs?

So now you're talking about legal immigration, not just opening the border and letting anyone wander in. Pick a horse.

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[Vertigo]

Sigh.

Another who can't distinguish the difference between private property and public property.

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I said free (i.e . open) immigration that is managed. Work on the reading comprehension.

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[SurelySerious]

Legal, free immigration to all. Sounds just like what I'm advocating.

Keeping borders closed restricts human freedom.

Restrictions on the right to migrate are only moral if there is clear evidence of very bad consequences.

I said free (i.e . open) immigration that is managed. Work on the reading comprehension.

But it's not what you said. You said there should be no restrictions and an absolutely open border, i.e. no control.

Edited May 18, 2014 by SurelySerious

[TreeA10]

Define "open immigration that is managed." Seems to be contradictory terms but I'm willing to be educated.

Public vs private. You can't give anything to someone without first taking it from someone else but let's assume you are talking about land controlled by the Government. Are you going to force all new immigrants to move to Bureau of Land Management property? Are you sure they want to live in Nevada and Utah? Maybe Alaska?

[Vertigo]

There should be no restrictions. And if the border was open to all but still managed, what incentive is there to trek through miles of open desert when you can come through a checkpoint legally, with no restrictions?

Comprende mi amigo?

By you keeping out those who you don't want in, aren't you infringing on my private property rights to sell, or rent to whomever I choose to enter into a contract with? Or as a business owner, whom I can hire to work for me? So your "right" to possibly feel crowded supersedes my rights as a property owner or business owner to run my businessour home in its best interest?

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Are you saying no one would rent or sell to an immigrant, tree?

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[Clark Griswold]

By you keeping out those who you don't want in, aren't you infringing on my private property rights to sell, or rent to whomever I choose to enter into a contract with? Or as a business owner, whom I can hire to work for me? So your "right" to possibly feel crowded supersedes my rights as a property owner or business owner to run my businessour home in its best interest?

Because your "freedom" to enter into business, contracts, etc... with whomever can drag/bribe/sneak their way into the country infringes on my right to not be robbed/killed/raped/harassed by illegal aliens and infringes on the sovereignty of my nation to control it's borders

[Vertigo]

Nice that you label all immigrants like that. Your true white robe colors are showing

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[Clark Griswold]

Nice that you label all immigrants like that. Your true white robe colors are showing

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Yours are too, the original intent of this thread was about securing the border(s) from illegal crossings, nothing to do with legal crossings / immigration. Those who argue against merely stopping illegal crossing / immigration really are saying that other people who are not citizens of this country have special rights to violate laws that actual citizens of this country do not.

BTW I specified illegal aliens, not legal immigrants.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Clark Griswold

[Majestik Møøse]

Vertigo, you're full of shit, dude. Protectionism of our assets is a valid reason to be able to regulate our borders. Right now we are unable to do so along much of our southern border.

[Vertigo]

And my whole argument has been to open immigration, thus disincentivizing illegal immigration. So that everyone who wants to immigrate can do so legally.

Yet every argument against has either been of pure selfishness in the opportunities and resources here, or racist statements equating immigrants with killers and rapists.

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[Vertigo]

Vertigo, you're full of shit, dude. Protectionism of our assets is a valid reason to be able to regulate our borders. Right now we are unable to do so along much of our southern border.

In other words, you want to restrict another human's freedoms for your own selfish greed.

So it's ok for me to stop you from coming into my city looking for a job because I'm protecting my available resources.

[Majestik Møøse]

The whole reason we have countries is to protect our resources. Open the resources to anyone who wants them, what's the point?

[herkbum]

This just needs to end

Herkbum

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[Clark Griswold]

Nice that you label all immigrants like that. Your true white robe colors are showing

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Why do you try to confuse legal and illegal immigration? You keep trying to equate the two. There is a process, I am sure it could be improved but there is a way to do it legally and it may not always allow everyone in (which in my opinion is good) but not everyone is guaranteed everything they want in life either.

[MD]

And my whole argument has been to open immigration, thus disincentivizing illegal immigration. So that everyone who wants to immigrate can do so legally.

Yet every argument against has either been of pure selfishness in the opportunities and resources here, or racist statements equating immigrants with killers and rapists.

Better check yourself with throwing out the racist card. Not every illegal alien is someone just coming here looking for work. If you actually did the job of working down the border areas, you would know the numbers of hard-core felons that are caught coming across the border into the country. People with wants/warrants for rape, murder, sex crimes, child crimes, human and weapons smuggling, kidnapping; and the list goes on. Go to the ICE detention center in Florence, AZ and see who is being held there that were caught by BP. And that's only those who were caught. Who knows how many haven't been.

That is the reason there isn't an open gate to the border nor should there be.

While yes, the immigration system in this country does need some streamlining and updating, simply opening the border wholesale isn't the way to fix that problem. Holding those who hire and exploit the cheap labor illegals provide, preying on their fear of never going to the police to complain, is what needs to be done.

Come down here and work the desert southwest sometime. It would blow your mind what kind of people are caught and what their backgrounds are......or even what they're currently caught in the act of doing. Until then, your exercise in pure academia is nothing more than that.

Edited May 18, 2014 by MD

[Vertigo]

So restrict freedom because someone of your race might commit a crime. That sounds like a legit excuse.

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[MD]

So restrict freedom because someone of your race might commit a crime. That sounds like a legit excuse.

That's not what was said at all and you know it. But nice way to twist the argument into full retard mode.

Control the borders and allow the nation to determine who it lets in and who it doesn't. Criminals who are ALREADY known criminals? No, we don't want them (well, YOU may and and I'll be happy to send them to YOUR house). Non-criminals who can be a help and good addition to the country? Allow work visas for them and make the pathway to legal citizenship easier than the muddled mess it currently is.

[Vertigo]

You might not have but Clark essentially did. And when I called him out on it you defended his position.

Who determines what is a " good addition"? Someone now having to compete for a job with someone willing to work harder, faster and cheaper may say that person is not a " good addition" .

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[Fuzz]

Doesn't even have to be the border area. I grew up around the suburbs of DC, quiet little town (not mayberry by any means) but your average middle class america town. Then there was the housing boom as the DC sprawl came to county with coporate HQs and everyone trying to get out of the urban areas around DC. This brought a literal tidal wave of illegal immigrants to do the cheap labor for the new construction. They don't assimilate into the society, they set up literal ghettos in apartment complexes or pack 7-8 families into houses. They treat the public schools as a daycare, and yes a lot of citizens do as well, but the proportion of Americans that do it pales in comparison. They are dragging the schools into the ground becuase their kids don't learn or care to learn. They get food stamps, welfare, housing assistance, free breakfast and lunch for their kids at school, all while driving escelades, with iPhones with gold chains etc.; yeah sounds like an exageration but its not I've watched it happen for years in my home town. The other problem prior to this housing boom, we had very little crime, the town overall was pretty safe, now we have the largest concetration of MS-13 gang outside of LA in the Northern VA area. I went home about 4 years ago and noticed the cops were carrying shotguns and AR-15s on racks in their cruisers along with wearingn body armor. I asked my dad why they were now so well armed? Well turns out muggings, home invasions, drive-by shootings, etc. have all become common place. It was on the upswing when I was still there in high school but no where near as bad as it is now. These immigrants aren't really under any threat from local LEOs they literally stand in parking lots waiting for guys in pickup trucks to come by and pick them up to go work for the day, while the LEOs sit. On the other side of the street and watch.

Vertigo I'm with you on opening the boards and making it easier for people to come hear above the table, guest worker programs etc. but please knock this bullshit off about how illegal immigrants aren't a danger or a drag on society or those of us who oppose them are selfish racists becuase it's not fucking true.

[Clark Griswold]

You might not have but Clark essentially did. And when I called him out on it you defended his position.

Keeping it civil, nothing I said was racist and you just read into it what fulfills the fantasy of oppression you have constructed.

[MD]

You might not have but Clark essentially did. And when I called him out on it you defended his position.

Who determines what is a " good addition"? Someone now having to compete for a job with someone willing to work harder, faster and cheaper may say that person is not a " good addition" .

A good addition is someone with no criminal background who is willing to work, contribute to society, pay their taxes, and reap the benefits that come with becoming a citizen; as well as the pathway that leads to that such as LPR (Legal Permanent Resident..otherwise known as a green card holder) and work visa holder.

There's no question that the immigration system for citizenship, as it stands, is in good need of repair. It shouldn't have to take someone a decade, in some cases, to earn their citizenship here. That's where the immigration system portion needs to be revamped.

By the same token, having a completely open border isn't the answer if only due to the known criminal element that will come in. People need to be screened and a process in place to determine when and how many people enter or leave the country. We obviously want those who will make the USA a better place for all, not a worse place if they are already criminals. Look at what happened with the Mariel boatlift in the late 1970s from Cuba: Castro emptied out his jails of actual criminals (not just political prisoners), and allowed them to come here as asylum seekers due to the USA's open-arms policy, which was gravely taken advantage of (and which we allowed to get taken advantage of).

The answer to the illegal immigration problem isn't an easy one. This country was built on immigrants. Deporting everyone and anyone who is here illegally won't work. Allowing anyone and everyone who wants to come in unchecked won't work. The answer lies in the middle, and involves fixing the current outdated and broken immigration system and giving it a tune-up. First and foremost, the border itself needs to be controlled. Not shut down or closed, but just controlled to where we can know who is coming and who is going.

Edited May 18, 2014 by MD

[Fuzz]

If it didn't work in the EU, that is because of they way they implemented it, not because it doesn't work. In North America there is an economic and political union of sovereign states where you can cross sovereign borders with any border control at all. This union even has a common currency, that has been considered by many to be very successful.

You might want to go read up on how the EU's open immigration policies are affecting England, specifically the influx of Romanian cheap labor and the spikes in crime from the new immigrants.