Mexican Military incursion(s) into the United States

[Vertigo]

How about immigrants that formed their own army? Pro Russian forces made up up Russian immigrants have attacked Ukrainian military forces.

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Militias aren't illegal here. Once they act against the nation or others in a criminal way they become criminals and should be dealt with as such. Until then they are innocent and should be treated as such. The fact they are or are not immigrants is of no importance.

[TreeA10]

Militias aren't illegal here. Once they act against the nation or others in a criminal way they become criminals and should be dealt with as such. Until then they are innocent and should be treated as such. The fact they are or are not immigrants is of no importance.

It seems to be important to Ukraine and a host of EU countries. Important to Russia, also, but they're in the "for" vs the "against" category.

[Vertigo]

It seems to be important to Ukraine and a host of EU countries. Important to Russia, also, but they're in the "for" vs the "against" category.

Ah, but remember this whole thing started with non-immigrants who looked to oust President Viktor Yanukovich- who is pro Russian. Those Ukranians seized public buildings and attacked police lines.

Pro-Russian forces didn't attack until the new Kiev government was formed.

So the first action was ok because they weren't immigrants but the second action wasn't because those people weren't born in that country originally? Even though they have the same rights as those who are native born?

Edited May 19, 2014 by Vertigo

[HeloDude]

Militias aren't illegal here. Once they act against the nation or others in a criminal way they become criminals and should be dealt with as such. Until then they are innocent and should be treated as such. The fact they are or are not immigrants is of no importance.

Since you're speaking of legalilty vs illegality here (not philosophical), per US Code, only citizens makeup the organized and unorganized militia (unless they have made a declaration of intention to become a US citizen)...which is interesting because you can enlist in the military without being a citizen. When you enlist as a non-citizen, do you have to make a declaration of intention to become an American citizen? (did some searching and couldn't find an easy/straightforward answer https://www.cna.org/sites/default/files/research/non%20citizens%20in%20the%20enlisted%20us%20military%20d0025768%20a2.pdf)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

[Vertigo]

Since you're speaking of legalilty vs illegality here (not philosophical), per US Code, only citizens makeup the organized and unorganized militia (unless they have made a declaration of intention to become a US citizen)...which is interesting because you can enlist in the military without being a citizen. When you enlist as a non-citizen, do you have to make a declaration of intention to become an American citizen? (did some searching and couldn't find an easy/straightforward answer https://www.cna.org/sites/default/files/research/non%20citizens%20in%20the%20enlisted%20us%20military%20d0025768%20a2.pdf)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

No you do not. You cannot get a commission or even a security clearance- but all that is required is to be a resident alien, be between 17 and 35, meet the mental, moral, and physical standards for enlistment; and they must speak, read and write English fluently.

[hispeed7721]

[enlistees] must speak...English fluently.

That may be written in a reg somewhere, but it definitely is not enforced

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[nsplayr]

Agreed...I've met several LTs from SEC schools that don't speak English fluently

[TreeA10]

Southernese is not that difficult to learn.

[Clark Griswold]

If they aren't taking from you- what are you protecting and defending? Why would allowing immigrants to enter mean we are no longer sovereign?

They are taking advantage of my country, I am advocating for protecting / defending rule of law and sovereignty. I would argue that some of it has already been lost and the secure border I am arguing for is integral to further erosion of our national sovereignty.

Not a conspiracy theorist but powerful entities like trans-national corporations, ethno-centric advocacy groups, factions of major political parties view a open border as beneficial to their interests which are not always in line with those of the United States.

Are they plotting Aztlan or the North American Union? I doubt it but "they" would rather see a free trade / open borders / easy residency & citizenship / demographic & political shift reality develop. That may be good for business but it is not good for a free & stable democratic republic.

I see that as a race to the bottom: low wages & poor working conditions in a hyper-competitive labor market, high crime from weak states with narco gangs, divisive politics from large unassimilated minorities that are encouraged to agitate the majority to adapt to them and a dismissive attitude to the majority population of the nation.

[panchbarnes]

On the topic of illegal immigration...

Pentagon eyes specialized program to enlist undocumented immigrants

https://www.stripes.com/pentagon-eyes-specialized-program-to-enlist-undocumented-immigrants-1.284100

The Pentagon is reviewing a program that allows qualified noncitizens to enlist in the military, and officials say they’ll consider expanding it to cover some who now live in the United States illegally.

One of many hi-vis/controversial social issues that the Pentagon has been "reviewing" lately.

The Army has been accepting green card holders for a while in order to support the two major combat operations. Now that we are in the middle of a major DoD-wide drawdown this program makes no sense what's so ever. I'm willing to bet someone's VSP that we can find enough "qualified applicants" and "diversity" within the pool of legal & documented immigrants that we have in this country today.

I can see how the implementation of this program can benefit someone politically, I just don't see how it benefits the military or the U.S..

Edited May 20, 2014 by PanchBarnes

[Disregard]

U.S. Setting Up Emergency Shelter in Texas as Youths Cross Border Alone

With border authorities in South Texas overwhelmed by a surge of young illegal migrants traveling by themselves, the Department of Homeland Security declared a crisis this week and moved to set up an emergency shelter ... for up to 1,000 minors at Lackland Air Force Base in Texas, authorities said, and will begin transferring youths there by land and air.

[Homestar]

And you want to limit human freedom for your own selfish reasons.

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Now you're getting it.

[Vertigo]

Now you're getting it.

So slavery should be legal again, right? After all of we're going to limit freedom for selfish reasons, why not go all out?

[10percenttruth]

Man, the slopes in this thread are slippery as hell! I'm amazed all the strawmen can stay standing with that & the red herrings flying around.

[HeloDude]

So slavery should be legal again, right? After all of we're going to limit freedom for selfish reasons, why not go all out?

Wait...are you actually making the argument that citizens of this country currently have true freedom? Ok...go on...

Fortunately we have the 13th Amendment, but unfortunately we have the thousands of other laws and regulations that limit and restrict personal Liberty.

[Vertigo]

...unfortunately we have the thousands of other laws and regulations that limit and restrict personal Liberty.

That doesn't mean they are right.

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[HeloDude]

That doesn't mean they are right.

Agreed...just saying that you don't need to make the hypothetical (and very unrealistic) slavery comparison. We have thousands of current laws/regulations keeping us from being truly free.

[Clark Griswold]

Not a good sign...

‘We Have Never Experienced This’: Chilling Drug Cartel-Style Threats Hit Texas Billboards

Another reason for Operation Secure the Damn Border to go into high gear.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Clark Griswold

[HeyEng]

Meanwhile in Sweden: https://m.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141437/ivar-ekman/stockholm-syndrome

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[clouseau]

Bit hypocritical for the Mexican gov. to complain about our border when one considers what they do on their southern border to illegals coming up from the south and they need to be called out on this but that would take balls .

Instead of letting those who sponge off taxpayers into this country we schould only allow those in with something to contribute to the society as a whole.

Edited May 25, 2014 by clouseau

[TreeA10]

"While Europe Slept" is a good read regarding immigration into Europe.

[Clark Griswold]

"While Europe Slept" is a good read regarding immigration into Europe.

"The Last Days of Europe" and "State of Emergency" are also good primers on how the West is doing immigration all wrong for the last oh 50+ years or so. Too many immigrants, virtually no screening for immigrants that will assimilate and have something to offer and no strong effort at assimilation when here. The elites of the West just can't get it that immigration is not necessarily always enriching to a nation, that you may actually be letting in people that will not fit into your society, that Western values are not necessarily triumphant just by exposure to them. Many immigrants anyway are encouraged not to integrate as a faction of the Left of virtually the entire Western world has decided that anything like assimilation or adapting to their new country is wrong, bigoted and these people have a right to be pissed off at the society that allows them in and helps them, the counter culture morphed into some kind of deranged suicidal movement hell bent on destroying any backbone in the West and won't stop until all of it is dragged into the morass. Ok, rant complete.

Not against immigrants or immigration, just the way we practice it now, which pretty much is mixture of naive-stupid-crazy-suicidal.

Back to topic though, at some point something has got to give to get the US Military on the border in force, deploying State Defense Forces might do it, just by poaching on what has been traditionally the Federal Gov. territory and shaming them into doing it.

[Vertigo]

Christ- I may have to reevaluate my position if Joe is agreeing with me.

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[busdriver]

Well said Joe. The immigration is bad, and they don't assimilate meme has been around forever; Chinese, Irish, Italian, German, Soviet Eastern Block, etc.

Part of the reason illegals don't assimilate well is because they're illegal, they have to band together or risk getting caught. The other part is going where they're comfortable, that takes a couple generations to fix unless they get caught in the low income crime trap, which is worsened by being illegal since they can't rise above it regardless of effort.

The barrier for legal entry is too high, forcing people to enter illegally. If legal entry was easier (but managed appropriately) less would enter illegally, thus making cracking down the criminals hiding amidst the sea of current illegals much easier as their sea would become a puddle.

[Clark Griswold]

Simply put, immigrants make it cheaper to live in the states. Not only that, but they make our lives more productive. Time is money, and I am far more productive doing my highly paid job I have been trained for, than I am at doing unpaid manual labor tasks. So instead, I employ illegal immigrants to do the things I don't want to do, either directly, (like housekeeping, gardening, etc), or indirectly (buying their fruit, vegetables, purchasing goods/services from firms that hire illegals). I can take that money and spend it on things like services, consumer goods, or financial instruments, which is where the bulk of our economy is really geared towards. I want to create jobs for Americans just as much as the next guy, but creating shitty minimum wage work doesn't help us as a nation. It ironically makes us more likely to backslide into socialism, once wage workers realize that relying on the government is by far their best option.

No, they keep the poor and working class of a first world nation from ever having anything by keeping wages artificially low by allowing corporations and wealthier individuals to employ people who work off the books, for less than legal wages in shitty conditions and who either bring with them problems, require gov assistance and keep our supposedly free market from balancing itself

The free market only works if there is rule of law, turning a blind or apathetic eye to illegal immigration / unsecure borders is suicidal and knowingly employing illegals is no different than buying stolen goods.

BTW, our highly specialized skill set is under attack. When aircraft that are flagged in other nations start flying domestic routes with aircrew and support who work for less money that 'Mericans, the end is nigh for having a protected occupation, even for pilots.

How to Revive Airline Competition

Edited May 28, 2014 by Clark Griswold