Why Not the B-1 Instead of the A-10?

[Breckey]

The Soviets would have seen those yellow bands.

[waveshaper]

Report: B-1B bombs killed U.S. Soldiers after location mix-up.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20140904/NEWS/309040059/Report-B-1B-bombs-killed-U-S-soldiers-after-location-mix-up

[Harpy]

Released investigation here:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/238691680/Friendly-Fire-Airstrike-in-the-Vicinity-of-Arghandab-Afghanistan-9-Jun-14

13 years in this country and we are just now discovering the Sniper Pod cannot ID IR strobes, is this right?

There is a pervasive belief, held by all four members of the crew, other Air Force aviators, JTACs, and many ground units that Sniper Pods can detect IR strobes; relevant publications and references do not address this technical limitation

[Vetter]

A dip check before dropping the JDAMs while on NVGs would have solved this problem. But Bones are the best CAS platform.

[xcraftllc]

I'm not saying I know enough about this situation to fault the air-frame or pilots just because I read the report, and it looks like there were many mistakes made. I'm sure everyone involved was a good person and professional, but subject to human error like the rest of us.

With that said, I'd say that a Hawg pilot at low altitude and airspeed, or a Viper pilot with excellent visibility from the cockpit would have glanced over with NVGs and noticed the IR strobes.

[SurelySerious]

Released investigation here:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/238691680/Friendly-Fire-Airstrike-in-the-Vicinity-of-Arghandab-Afghanistan-9-Jun-14

13 years in this country and we are just now discovering the Sniper Pod cannot ID IR strobes, is this right?

No publication in the B-1 world describes the wavelength detectable by the Sniper? Questionable.

[Ram]

"Hmm...why is the IR pointer flashing directly at those blinking lights on the ground?"

[Disco_Nav963]

No publication in the B-1 world describes the wavelength detectable by the Sniper? Questionable.

I'm guessing their T.O. describes describes the wavelength detectable by Sniper but omits the wavelength of the IR strobe used by the ground dudes. At least that's the case for the BUFF.

[schokie]

I'm guessing their T.O. describes describes the wavelength detectable by Sniper but omits the wavelength of the IR strobe used by the ground dudes. At least that's the case for the BUFF.

There are publications besides the TO that tell aircrew how to employ their systems in a tactical environment. I don't have access to it in my home vault, but I'd be shocked if that little gem of knowledge regarding the Sniper pod wasn't available to them. Regardless, the B-1 has been doing CAS-lite for a long time now. I'm sure someone in the squadron had already figured that out, even if it wasn't formally published.

To be clear, I do not know the details of this situation, I don't know the crew, and I'm not throwing blame spears here. It's a shitty situation all around. But if true, it is inexcusable to not know the basic capabilities of your systems.

[Tulsa]

That incident was a tough read with a colossal failure on both parties involved. First of all, when line 8 doesn't make sense, that should be a trigger that SA is in the street. Secondly not knowing the capabilities of your equipment on both sides of the equation is unbelievable. I don't know what is worse, you think IR strobes are visible in the TGP or a B-1 is able to see strobes with their NVGs in a ~5NM wheel. I've worked a lot of CAS and haven't had a JTAC think I could see his IR strobe in a TGP. However, I have called out a B-1 saying they saw my sparkle when I wasn't sparkling. My last question is, was the ATO so saturated that we couldn't match a better CAS asset to the mission?

[SurelySerious]

My last question is, was the ATO so saturated that we couldn't match a better CAS asset to the mission?

Thats the whole crux of this discussion, isn't it? To the planners, it fits; large PGM payload, hours of vul time, good communication ability, and NTISR. This is especially true with the drawdown of forces from bases in AFG. There are actually less CAS aircraft than there were a few years ago. MQ-9s are covering ATO fragged CAS taskings now also, but the B-1 has been part of the pillars of their plan because it's based outside of the country and it doesn't have to move out later.

[di1630]

With that said, I'd say that a Hawg pilot at low altitude and airspeed, or a Viper pilot with excellent visibility from the cockpit would have glanced over with NVGs and noticed the IR strobes.

You mean doing CAS is more than just strapping a TGP to anything that flies? Quick, tell this to USAF leadership, oh too late, they could care less about CAS except when boasting stats. 5 people died, yeah that was months ago and they were Army guys so they won;t count against our yearly fatalities on ppt. Just tell the premier B-1 CAS crews they can't see IR strobes in the TGP and to keep doing the best they can. The Hog...pffft, we'll try to get it out of the picture next year again. An F-35 with the helmet would have seen the strobes. That's the solution...the F-35. Oh, and tell the Army guys to get their shit together...CAS is simply the Army telling the aircrew coordinates and having a bomb dropped on the grids...its not tough, any USAF plane can do it.

[Lawman]

You mean doing CAS is more than just strapping a TGP to anything that flies? Quick, tell this to USAF leadership, oh too late, they could care less about CAS except when boasting stats. 5 people died, yeah that was months ago and they were Army guys so they won;t count against our yearly fatalities on ppt. Just tell the premier B-1 CAS crews they can't see IR strobes in the TGP and to keep doing the best they can. The Hog...pffft, we'll try to get it out of the picture next year again. An F-35 with the helmet would have seen the strobes. That's the solution...the F-35. Oh, and tell the Army guys to get their shit together...CAS is simply the Army telling the aircrew coordinates and having a bomb dropped on the grids...its not tough, any USAF plane can do it.

You have to understand the Army mindset to this.

I can have artillery dropped anywhere on the map with nothing more than "hey you this is me, target at grid XY12345678. Request blank on my command." Why should 4 extra lines not result in the same level of capability. The Army views you as a bigger more powerful form of artillery, not a maneuver platform so you put iron where you are told, when you are told. Like I said, just the Army mindset. Is it perfect, no but it is the level of simplicity needed when you are talking about people that are operating on a much different picture than yours as far as a battlefield chess board.

and seriously.... Are guys gonna start a pissing contest on miss ID of a target that the JTAC failed to properly pass by all accounts on B1. Because the records of the A-10 communities frat events speaks against at. having Mark 1 eye ball at low altitude hasn't stopped some of the more public "oh shit" incidents in daylight no less that were often attributed to JTAC procedural errors, but people seem to be quick to call out bone for living life at altitude through a sniper pod and not recognizing/second guessing the JTAC.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Lawman

[Tulsa]

Lawman, as a platform you need to recognize your deficiencies, ie. "I can't see outside, I'd better triple check this desired point of impact for a PGM munition." Or hey line 8 is sounds incorrect, i.e.. friendlies should be E or SE of target, maybe ask if friendlies have moved on the battlefield. You and I both know that the USAF doesn't integrate well with the GND/CC scheme of maneuver, so early recognition (training) can lead to timely questions answered to prevent FRAT. Unless you're danger close, wind the watch (PGM specific), ask for the friendly lowdown, and build your friendly SA in the OEF fight.

Yes, you are correct the A-10 leads the fight for FRAT occurrences. However, if 99% of your mission is CAS, then I would expect to lead because we have below average swimmers or f-ed up joint integration in our community as well. Ask me about the time the US Army Gnd/CC asked me to kill 24 ANA soldiers one time, took every fiber of training and mutual support to prevent f-ing the dog on that one.

[SuperWSO]

Tulsa, your second paragraph captures the problem. You didn't make the news because you figured out the problem and broke the mishap chain. Nobody has an accurate count of how many times the A-10 or the B-1 got it right. It doesn't matter how many bridges you built...

[Winchester]

21 mins from 9-line to splash....doesn't appear that anyone was in much of a hurry. There was plenty of time to confirm friendly positions/unass the 9-line. 9-lines are methodical for that reason.

[di1630]

You have to understand the Army mindset to this.

The Army views you as a bigger more powerful form of artillery, not a maneuver platform so you put iron where you are told, when you are told. Like I said, just the Army mindset. Is it perfect, no but it is the level of simplicity needed when you are talking about people that are operating on a much different picture than yours as far as a battlefield chess board.

people seem to be quick to call out bone for living life at altitude through a sniper pod and not recognizing/second guessing the JTAC.

I understand how the Army views USAF CAS platforms, and since I spent many years training with JTACS and Army dudes, I understand that they make mistakes, I know pilots make tons of mistakes and is why we train so meticulously to mitigate those things.

I stand by it...THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE OCCURRED especially in current Afghanistan. As for night, Afghanistan CAS is easier at night....well, when you can look outside that is. Here is a few things an A-10 can do to mitigate a B-1 cannot, correct me if I misunderstand

1. Look outside at night to see IR strobes/pointer

2. have two jets/look angles/pods

3. throw down a low CDE weapon (rx/gun) first to mark/verify

There's more but its sad I've heard a few dudes say "See, it wasn't the B-1's fault"...bullshit, this should not have happened and is why we have and need dedicated CAS culture. But hell, like I said, the USAF has no problem claiming JV CAS is good enough.

Frat happens, it should not. It is almost always the fault of the pilot/crew. This chain could have been broken and should have been. I do think that if an F-16/A-10/E model was there, this might not have happened.

[SurelySerious]

I'm guessing their T.O. describes describes the wavelength detectable by Sniper but omits the wavelength of the IR strobe used by the ground dudes. At least that's the case for the BUFF.

Right, I guess what I'm getting at is that there are smart people in that community and someone had to have done some critical thinking to realize at some point that the wavelengths seen through NVGs (to include IR pointers/strobes) are way different than what's listed for the Sniper IR range [in much the same way you wouldn't expect to see your IR laser designator in NVGs or TGP IR display], and then included it in training/pubs. Edited September 6, 2014 by SurelySerious

[Harpy]

Right, I guess what I'm getting at is that there are smart people in that community and someone had to have done some critical thinking to realize at some point that the wavelengths seen through NVGs (to include IR pointers/strobes) are way different than what's listed for the Sniper IR range [in much the same way you wouldn't expect to see your IR laser designator in NVGs or TGP IR display], and then included it in training/pubs.

Or what about the hundreds of sorties flown by the Bone where they have never seen an IR strobe/pointer? What about the friendlies they were visual with, doesn't it seem odd you couldn't see their strobes either? I just don't see how this limitation has been overlooked for so long, with the various different platforms that carry this pod.

21 mins from 9-line to splash....doesn't appear that anyone was in much of a hurry. There was plenty of time to confirm friendly positions/unass the 9-line. 9-lines are methodical for that reason.

Agreed... Believe the investigation said they did three dry passes, before actually dropping. There was a discrepancy between BOT and BOC, plus poor comms leading to delayed clearance.

[busdriver]

I do think that if an F-16/A-10/E model was there, this might not have happened.

Maybe, but regardless the B-1 crew should have been able to stop that chain. Likewise the JTAC should have known better as well. Can you see IR strobes in a pod? Really?

[Lawman]

Maybe, but regardless the B-1 crew should have been able to stop that chain. Likewise the JTAC should have known better as well. Can you see IR strobes in a pod? Really?

They have been yelling at PM for years to get that capability into the EM-TADS so we can finally see all the nifty IR shit everybody else uses.

Supposed to happen in 2018.... Maybe....

[matmacwc]

B-1 doing CAS is like a F-15 doing CSAR. Can it? Sure, should it? Nope.

[MD]

B-1 doing CAS is like a F-15 doing CSAR. Can it? Sure, should it? Nope.

It depends what its being used for in particular. In certain situations, it's fine. In others, it may not be the best tool to use for the job. In even other situations, it may be the only tool available and has to be adapted as best as possible. Just depends.

Edited September 7, 2014 by MD

[Tex]

They have been yelling at PM for years to get that capability into the EM-TADS so we can finally see all the nifty IR shit everybody else uses.

Supposed to happen in 2018.... Maybe....

I think you are missing the point, no one sees any of that "nifty IR shit" unless they look outside, through their NVGs. CAS is a an endevour grounded in looking outside and visually acquiring among other things, targets, friendlies, and trps.

[MD]

I think you are missing the point, no one sees any of that "nifty IR shit" unless they look outside, through their NVGs. CAS is a an endevour grounded in looking outside and visually acquiring among other things, targets, friendlies, and trps.

True, if talking pure CAS. But ever since back a while back, when BAI and CAS were essentially rolled-in together, now CAS has become the art of delivering a piece of ordnance from an aircraft to somewhere, or on something, that a ground commander requests. Whether delivered from an aircraft merely serving as a bomb truck such as a B-1, or from a tactical aircraft of some sort that is fully integrated and with full SA to the CAS mission going on.

I think where these lines have since blurred or meshed, is where we get into new roles and missions for certain airframes, and how well (or not) they fit into that puzzle. Case in point, I couldn't get a -15E to strafe a ground target in theatre ten years ago. Now it's standard work for them. Similarly, there are certain CAS-type situations where a B-1 would work fine, and others where it wouldn't at all. BAI style work [albeit short-notice pre-planned] ala Khe Sanh '68? Sure. Dropping a bomb as a bomb truck where a ground commander wants said bomb dropped? Sure, it can do it. Danger close or fluid situation like that? Now comes the hesitation on my end. But if it's all there is at the time....

Edited September 7, 2014 by MD