Why Not the B-1 Instead of the A-10?

[busdriver]

I think you are missing the point, no one sees any of that "nifty IR shit" unless they look outside, through their NVGs. CAS is a an endevour grounded in looking outside and visually acquiring among other things, targets, friendlies, and trps.

Lawman can elaborate further, but the AH-64's primary fly at night sensor is a FLIR slaved to the pilot's helmet. They didn't start flying with NVGs until recently, and even then it's an either or thing, usually the co-pilot on NVGs intermittently with the TADS.

[Lawman]

Lawman can elaborate further, but the AH-64's primary fly at night sensor is a FLIR slaved to the pilot's helmet. They didn't start flying with NVGs until recently, and even then it's an either or thing, usually the co-pilot on NVGs intermittently with the TADS.

Not only that. This idea that you need to look out the window is... Well funny from my perspective.

We don't shoot visually. At all. Everything on the aircraft is driven around looking through that sensor as a gunner and no the guy driving you around in back doesn't have the SA or the visibility to look out and confirm where your rounds are going to go. We have the advantage of a wingman with their own sensor true but using NVGs from the cockpit to see a target from the combination of my altitude and cockpit visibility are about impossible so it isn't done.

We have more in common with the Strike Eagle in that regard than we do with something like a Viper or Hawg.

And while it's not a pass for the Bone guys that the JTAC miffed the grid, if he had done the same thing with artillery you would have had the same effect. I agree with the earlier post... Build a hundred bridges nobody cares....

[matmacwc]

You have nothing in common with the F-15E, not even the visual part.

[Muscle2002]

We have more in common with the Strike Eagle in that regard than we do with something like a Viper or Hawg.

Seriously? You spoke about how the pilot has horrible vis and doesn't know what the gunner is aiming at and then said that's like the E-model...are you drinking?

[Lawman]

Seriously? You spoke about how the pilot has horrible vis and doesn't know what the gunner is aiming at and then said that's like the E-model...are you drinking?

No I'm saying our gunners perspective is akin more to being the dude in the back of a high altitude aircraft using a sensor and a bomb than to being in your position of out the window forward ordnance employment. Our pilot puts the aircraft in position for weapons release... That's about it. Those wonderful history channel moments where they talk about the helmet with and pointing where you are looking... That's an old TTP for self defense in a battle position so you can smoke a dude with an RPG that pops out underneath you, that's not how we shoot.

Remember outside of a rocket shot the guy driving our aircraft isn't doing any of the weapons release. We differ from the two seat Driver/WSO model in that regard. The guy who is pulling e trigger and driving the fight, isn't looking outside. That means rounds are coming out of that gun or missiles off the rails at the trust that what your gunner sees in the sensor is what he is supposed to be shooting at. And we have done it that way since our inception. Weapons off the rail based on what we see in a sight not what we see outside the glass with our eyes. We shoot heads down because our sensor lends more SA than looking out the window from our perspective of the battle. Despite the fact that it can't see IR pointer/beacon/etc and there is little to no good way to back it up with goggles because FLIR is both our targeting and primary flying NVD.

And yes porkchop if you feed your position as the target grid on an artillery call for fire your only hope is that they miss what they are aiming at, because that's where the rounds are going. Indirect fire can't confirm you are or aren't where you say you are any better than a bomber at altitude. People have been killed that way before and will undoubtedly be killed that way again.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Lawman

[Mark1]

no one sees any of that "nifty IR shit" unless they look outside, through their NVGs.

True for most, but not all.

[Ram]

And let's not forget that the airborne personnel gave the JTAC enough confirmatory comm (no friendlies on the ridge) to feed the JTAC's expectation bias.

No arty asset would have been able to provide that.

Be warned: JTACs often assume your SA is higher than theirs, and sometimes this is not the case.

[Lawman]

Lawman, I've seen plenty of arty shot at human targets over the years and no doubt it can be extremely lethal, but it's nothing like having multiple 500 lb selectable fuse JDAMs guide to the exact target location. Unless you're talking Excalibur, you don't seem to be familiar with the concept of circular error probability or blast / fragmentation envelopes.

While true your still betting on them missing. I understand plenty the lethality difference having also shot and planned fires but that's like saying I'd rather get shot with a .38 in the leg vs a .44 in the stomach. Both can kill you, and it was you that put your body in front of the gun to begin with. Is an M777 battery as likely for a first round 1 time F up, no but it could very easily end that way with MLRS or other indirect on coordinate no vis to second guess systems we have.

That was my point the system only works if it gets all the right information. When this incident happened our CCT that's with us just could not figure out how you could pass your own position as the target because of his own self imposed safeties. He had a few specific rituals he would do because this is exactly what he feared most.

[KState_Poke22]

While true your still betting on them missing. I understand plenty the lethality difference having also shot and planned fires but that's like saying I'd rather get shot with a .38 in the leg vs a .44 in the stomach. Both can kill you, and it was you that put your body in front of the gun to begin with. Is an M777 battery as likely for a first round 1 time F up, no but it could very easily end that way with MLRS or other indirect on coordinate no vis to second guess systems we have.

That was my point the system only works if it gets all the right information. When this incident happened our CCT that's with us just could not figure out how you could pass your own position as the target because of his own self imposed safeties. He had a few specific rituals he would do because this is exactly what he feared most.

But in this case he didn't pass his own position. He had know idea friendlies were at the coords he passed because if wasn't relayed to him.

[Lawman]

I buy that, I'm tracking with you now but I would up it bit. It's more like having a blind man shoot a snub nose .38 in your general direction at 20 ft vs. a .44 Mag pressed up against your temple.

I laughed becuase just the other day "they" wanted us to pull coords for a fire mission and then call corrections. The first round didn't even hit the freakin ridge line and to this day I have no idea where that round hit. Evenutally they walked the rounds IVO the target area, but by that time it was an exersize of turning large rocks into small rocks. mission successful! god I love this place.

There's that damn crew proficiency thing that seems to bite us in the ass in so many mission sets (like the one that started this read). I was briefed on not one but two excaliburs that didn't land where they were supposed too... Or anywhere else observed. If I dropped something and didn't record where it went I'd probably go to jail with stuff the way it is now. You wanna see scary bad, Naval gunfire demos are terrifying. I've seen very accurate shooting especially with the lighter stuff (60,81 mortars etc) but that's just because they get to actually shoot more. Still I'm not gonna bet on Jib having bad aim and my body armor plates, I'm getting behind cover. Same principle here, know where the friendlies are is as much the of that JTAC or Plt Ldr on the ground as it is the bomber or fighter cleared IN.

Kstate, his grid or the grid of a friendly element he didn't have the SA on, it's still a mistake that started with him. I don't know how many times I've asked "do you have dismounts" only to be told no and then later find guys walking around in body armor. Makes me want to strangle a JTAC or RTO. It's the job to know where the hell these people are. And it's their job to keep you informed of where they are.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Lawman

[di1630]

Well, we've come full circle. I think a few things can be said. 90% of the time, any aircraft that has CAS as a sub-sub-sub mission will suffice in Afghanistan. When shit hits the fan, its is best to have the guys who do it for a living flying an aircraft built for CAS. Again, doesn't matter, USAF leadership has sold its soul to the F-35 and that bill will be paid with CAS capability and blood in the future.

[xcraftllc]

I think you are missing the point, no one sees any of that "nifty IR shit" unless they look outside, through their NVGs. CAS is a an endevour grounded in looking outside and visually acquiring among other things, targets, friendlies, and trps.

Tex, I'm pretty sure Lawman knows that, he was talking about future systems requests being submitted to the respective project managers. I agree about the looking outside part, there's no replacement for that ability, and dependency on other systems entirely is not a good plan.

What Lawman is getting at is they want image intensifier technology like that on goggles to be integrated with thermal systems. As it stands right now, the Apache's Pilot Night Vision System has an integrated Image Intensifier that sees the "nifty IR shit", it's called VNsight and I flew with it in Afghanistan. Still no replacement for goggles entirely, but is much safer than just having FLIR. They're trying to integrate it with the TADS now as well. If they could put that technology into targeting pods, it would be much safer.

[Tex]

I stand corrected in my use of broad stroke generalities. My intent was to point out, the pods currently in use do not see IR markers/strobes and none of the traditional strike platforms that carry them have a magic software patch to change that fact. The assumption that the crew could see IR energy was wildly off base and never should have been made, because no fighter or bomber currently being employed has that ability. Ill go back to the peanut gallery now.

[xcraftllc]

So what missions/advantages does the B-52 have over the B-1 then? Maybe cutting the Buff instead of the A-10 would free up the money and maintainers that the brass says are needed for the F-35 program. I mean, they wanna make the LRSB soon, and all of the Buffs are 54 years old. B-1s have a larger payload, higher top speed, and nearly the range of a Buff anyway. I know they're talking about replacing the Buff's engines right now to get even better range, but the same could be done for the Bone. I'm no expert but I would imagine that the RCS is better on the Bone too.

I mean it's still messed up that we're cutting anything, but I think the A-10 would be missed much more than the Buff.

[Craftsman]

But SAC is coming back. And one does not cut SAC's baby!

[Azimuth]

So what missions/advantages does the B-52 have over the B-1 then? Maybe cutting the Buff instead of the A-10 would free up the money and maintainers that the brass says are needed for the F-35 program. I mean, they wanna make the LRSB soon, and all of the Buffs are 54 years old. B-1s have a larger payload, higher top speed, and nearly the range of a Buff anyway. I know they're talking about replacing the Buff's engines right now to get even better range, but the same could be done for the Bone. I'm no expert but I would imagine that the RCS is better on the Bone too.

I mean it's still messed up that we're cutting anything, but I think the A-10 would be missed much more than the Buff.

Buff can drop nukes, the B-1 can't via the original START treaty.

/gameblouses

[BFM this]

AMRAAM delivery truck.

Edited April 30, 2015 by BFM this

[HU&W]

I mean, they wanna make the LRSB soon, and all of the Buffs are 54 years old.

LRS-B is a replacement for the B-2, not the buff.

[xcraftllc]

Interesting. Oh well, thanks for the clarification.