Checkride Scoring

[link]

So didn't find this anywhere else but am curious if anyone knows the answer to this question:

Do T-38 (or T-1) compete against every other base for assignments?

I only ask because I hear that the scoring is different between Columbus and other bases. At Columbus we grade phase 3 checkrides as upgrades, meaning a 12G (a good score for us) means that we got 12 Es on the whole gradesheet. This differs from our T-6 checkrides that downgrade, meaning a 12G is ok, everything but 12 are Es. I have heard that other bases do it the other way around (T-6 are upgrades and T-38s are downgrades). I am curious if we compete against every base if this is screwing us at Columbus because a good score for us might be pretty shitty elsewhere.

Does anybody have knowledge on how this works?

[Kenny Powers]

SPS uses the downgrade system for both T-6's and T-38's.

[10percenttruth]

It's been a few years since my white jet tour, but unless something has drastically changed, the pool of assignments is AF-wide. Your SQ/CCs will rochambeaux with their counterparts at DLF & END to work out the final drops. They'll use MASS scores as ammo for their arguments, but in the end, the 3 #1 guys are generally equal (unless they're gunning for a special drop, like a B-2, then differing scores will matter)

Your OGs should have the same scoring policies across UPT. I imagine it's probably outlined in 36-2205v4, but I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

Edited June 23, 2014 by 10percenttruth

[xaarman]

AFPC assigns a drop per base in an excel spreadsheet. Flight Commanders then have a trade day set up where they trade assignments according to rank in the class, if at all.

How each check ride score is computed is irrelevant, as long as it's the same for everyone in your class. The only thing that matters is a class ranking, IE they will trade for what a #1 guy wants, unless another #1 guy wants the same thing.

Edited June 23, 2014 by xaarman

[link]

AFPC assigns a drop per base in an excel spreadsheet. Flight Commanders then have a trade day set up where they trade assignments according to rank in the class, if at all.

How each check ride score is computed is irrelevant, as long as it's the same for everyone in your class. The only thing that matters is a class ranking, IE they will trade for what a #1 guy wants, unless another #1 guy wants the same thing.

This is what I assumed, I just know that a lot of guys as Columbus have been bitching because other bases seem to get better drops and they are always pointing to how we do scoring for phase 3. I looked up the reg and it sounds like each base gets their assignments and it really is just the luck of the draw. Hopefully the end of the fiscal year is a good thing for me.

[Cap-10]

Columbus, Laughlin, and Vance all score the T-38 checkrides the same...upgrades...it's the same syllabus at all three bases.

Sheppard is old school downgrade style...different syllabus.

AFPC dishes out jets to each SUPT base using a Dungeons/Dragons 69 sided die and a Ouija Board...he doesn't care (or know) about your upgrade for close trail or form takeoff.

Cap-10

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[guineapigfury]

The saddest part of this thread is the poor guy who thinks AFPC would ever take his past performance into account when delivering a future assignment.

[Champ Kind]

Columbus, Laughlin, and Vance all score the T-38 checkrides the same...upgrades...it's the same syllabus at all three bases.

Sheppard is old school downgrade style...different syllabus.

Am I getting old? I could have sworn that in Tweets an "awesome" checkride score was something like a "1E" whereas "passing" was something like a "14G".

[HeloDude]

Am I getting old? I could have sworn that in Tweets an "awesome" checkride score was something like a "1E" whereas "passing" was something like a "14G".

You and me both, man...that's how it was for us 'back in da day'. I also remember hearing that a 3U was better than a 14G (assuming you didn't have any problems passing your 88/89)--basically it was 'downgrades' that were scored and the overall score didn't really mean much.

How are they doing it now?

[ARIs 'R' Us]

You and me both, man...that's how it was for us 'back in da day'. I also remember hearing that a 3U was better than a 14G (assuming you didn't have any problems passing your 88/89)--basically it was 'downgrades' that were scored and the overall score didn't really mean much.

How are they doing it now?

You're not wrong. Sounds like instead of starting everyone with an E for everything, you now start with MIF for everything. More in line with real check rides, where a Q-1 Sat is nice, but not as nice as an EQ with 2 commendables.

If your Flt/CC thinks you deserve a better assignment than what your base got, they'll fight for it. If not, best of luck with AFPC's presents.

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[guineapigfury]

Am I getting old? I could have sworn that in Tweets an "awesome" checkride score was something like a "1E" whereas "passing" was something like a "14G".

Off topic, but one of my friends got a 57 downgrade "good" in T-6s on a particular checkride.

[Right Seat Driver]

You and me both, man...that's how it was for us 'back in da day'. I also remember hearing that a 3U was better than a 14G (assuming you didn't have any problems passing your 88/89)--basically it was 'downgrades' that were scored and the overall score didn't really mean much.

How are they doing it now?

Same here. Went through UPT in 07-08 and a one of the best top mid-phase checkride scores was a 3U.

[HercDude]

Am I getting old? I could have sworn that in Tweets an "awesome" checkride score was something like a "1E" whereas "passing" was something like a "14G".

It seems that for the longest time Stan/Eval would brief the students that every item on the gradesheet started with an E, and unless the IP saw a reason to downgrade it from an E, that particular item would be recorded as such (this was the case when I was a Tweet student back in the stone age, and still the case when I returned as an IP in 2008). Around 2010 (at Columbus anyway) it was pointed out that this method of grading isn't described in the syllabus or 36-2205, and that a checkride should be graded exactly the same as any other ride (How many rieds before your midphase were firewall Es with 3 total downgrades?). So a ride that in one class would probably be recorded as a 3E, the next class might be recorded as a 9E, or a 9G.

After they made that change the midphase and final contact scores dropped a lot, with a 12-14G being about average I think. It was still common to see only 3-4 downgrades on an instrument check though, and ocassionally on a form.

And it is true that the MASS only records the number of downgrades, not the overall score. A 3U is worth more in the MASS than a 4E. An overall U/F/G/E on any given sortie only matters for tracking CAP triggers and stroking/destroying student egos. But it is also true that certain MIF items are valued more than others. The formula for MASS is actually published in 2205 v4, but it gives more weight to things like SA, Decision Making, and GK vs. individual maneuvers. So if your 3 downgrades were for normal pattern, loop, and lazy-8, that's a better score (in the MASS) than 3 downgrades for landing, GK, and EPs.

[HossHarris]

If you're a UPT student, work your ass off and don't worry about how the sausage is made.

Lawyer balling the mass scores or check ride grading won't get you far in life.

Work hard and the details will sort themselves out

[Raul Duke]

xaarman is exactly right on the relationship between checkrides and assignments. The MASS score for the class is relative to that class only, so you're being graded against only the other students in your class, not across bases. The only time I've observed that score being mentioned between bases is during the trades when we had a tie between, say, the #3 students at two bases. One flight commander tried to leverage an assignment away from another by saying his #3 was better than the other guys #3 based on overall MASS scores. And that was just a negotiating tactic, there is no requirement to consider MASS scores during trades. (Top 10% [rounded up] of each class should get their first choice, however.)

But that's the point. Even if Vance for whatever reason started handing out E's to every single student or got really strict and hooked everyone, it wouldn't change anything on assignment night. It helps even out any inequities between the bases grading practices. AFPC would still drop the jets relatively equally to all the bases, since they don't have access to any scores. (One rouge Stana Claus or Hookie-Monster down in Check Flight, however, could skew results within a base.)

Regarding upgrades vs. downgrades on checkrides, yeah every maneuver attempted starts at MIF and moves up or down from there. I know this is true at Vance and I think its true at the other two bases as well. And HercDude you are correct that things are weighted differently, but its not really true that TIMS only records the downgrades, however it is true that all things being equal an Unsat on an item will do more damage than anything else. The actual overall score for checkrides (and every ride for that matter) is overall points received vs points available. So if you look at the breakdown for like, Vertical-S, a U=0, F=3, G=8, E=10...something like that. I just made those numbers up, but in the examples I saw they all followed that sort of logic where the difference between a F and a G was large, and the jump to an E only added a few points. So it is entirely possible that someone could Unsat for one item, say, 30 Flap Landing, but get E's on every other item and would end up with a better Checkride MASS score than another student who got all G's. HOWEVER, one of the guys at the TIMS helpdesk told me once that on checkrides, overall grades are somehow factored into the Checkride MASS so someone who gets a +10G and another person who gets a +10E won't have the same score. I can't 100% vouch for that, but that's what he said.

And where my understanding of all this came from, we had a rash of students doing some extra maneuvers on checkrides attempting to pad their scores. Beyond that being a terrible idea based on the fact that they were exposing themselves to more opportunity to screw something up, the system is designed to even that out, because think about it, some student goes to fly, and due to WX or MX or whatever, just gets the minimum requirements done. It wouldn't be fair if a guy who simply does more items to get a better score. So unless the student is getting E's on all those extra items, it doesn't make a difference and in fact might actually dilute any upgrades he or she might have received. (Although I got a C in statistics, so I could be wrong.)

[Ram]

If you're a UPT student, work your ass off and don't worry about how the sausage is made.

Lawyer balling the mass scores or check ride grading won't get you far in life.

Work hard and the details will sort themselves out

I taught at SPS for 3 years in the 38. You could ALWAYS tell which stud had a secret white board at home to keep track of the scores, and there was always at least one of 'em in every class.

Strange...things never worked out the way they thought it would.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Ram

[Chuck17]

I taught at SPS for 3 years in the 38. You could ALWAYS tell which stud had a secret white board at home to keep track of the scores, and there was always at least one of 'em in every class.

Strange...things never worked out the way they thought it would.

HA! Thanks for the laugh brother, spot on.

If I was more savvy in my younger years I would have made said board(s) - we had a few in my class methinks - part of a dipshit scavenger hunt or something... Many rewards for "proof of life"...!

Chuck

[Napoleon_Tanerite]

Current CBM T-1 IP here. Trust me when I say this, the grades are the same, no matter how they are "interpreted". A gradesheet submitted at CBM is the same as what is submitted at DLF or END. They are graded IAW the syllabus and course training standards. Students invent these creative ways to numerically categorize checkride grades, but these interpretations are irrelevant and not used for anything other than one student lying to another about what he/she allegedly "got" on their checkride.

As a side note-- students tend to care too much about grades/MASS to begin with. While they are important, most students are so close together that it is Flt/CC ranking that makes the difference between all but the top and the bottom 10-20% of any given class. The middle is largely decided by Flt/CC ranking and I can guarantee that a grade-chaser/buddy f'er will hurt their flt/cc ranking (and therefore the MASS) far more than a few graded items on a gradesheet or two.

My advice-- fly your ass off, show up prepared and ready to fly every day, and be enthusiastic and ready to learn. The rest will sort itself out. If you want more info, PM me.

[Fuzz]

I taught at SPS for 3 years in the 38. You could ALWAYS tell which stud had a secret white board at home to keep track of the scores, and there was always at least one of 'em in every class.

Strange...things never worked out the way they thought it would.

Let me guess they were also the ones that usually quibbled the most about each individual item's grade? While believing bumping that grade would help them when in reality it pissed off the instructors?

[Lord Ratner]

Let me guess they were also the ones that usually quibbled the most about each individual item's grade? While believing bumping that grade would help them when in reality it pissed off the instructors?

I never had one question an item grade, or a hooked ride for that matter.

[disgruntledemployee]

(One rouge Stana Claus or Hookie-Monster down in Check Flight, however, could skew results within a base.)

What is a rouge Santa Claus? Is that some new form of red jacket/pants combo?

Anyway, to the student poster that started this, AFPC will now give your base all the leftovers. Or perhaps you Sq/Gp CCs will asked for lots of RPAs so that they can make an OPR bullet out it. I also heard that Laughlin gets better planes because their flying is harder. But Vance blows, so to make them feel better, then get good planes too. I guess you all get leftovers. Oh well.

Out

[JeepGuyC17]

"MIF+1" is a dirty word at AETC HQ. This used to be the standard starting point for checkride grades, but was done away with some time ago, at least at CBM, because it violates the syllabus and CTS. As others have said, it doesn't matter at all how a stud at another base is graded, you are only ranked against your class, at your base, in your track. Work hard, study your ass off, and don't be a douchebag.

[mcbush]

Work hard, study your ass off, and don't be a douchebag.

Note: this advice also applies to after UPT as well.

[LookieRookie]

"MIF+1" is a dirty word at AETC HQ. This used to be the standard starting point for checkride grades, but was done away with some time ago, at least at CBM, because it violates the syllabus and CTS. As others have said, it doesn't matter at all how a stud at another base is graded, you are only ranked against your class, at your base, in your track. Work hard, study your ass off, and don't be a douchebag.

Oh you'd be surprised about that whole downgrade thing

Edited June 25, 2014 by LookieRookie

[matmacwc]

It doesn't matter between bases, you are racked within your class, so if you all have the same check IPs it doesn't matter. Plus, with PCSs this years hookie monster check flight is next years Santa Clause. Get over it and do your best......F'ing snaps.