Cooperate to graduate (unless planning a political career)

[brickhistory]

Didn't see this elsewhere, so here goes...

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/us/politics/montana-senator-john-walsh-plagiarized-thesis.html?_r=0

On the campaign trail this year, Mr. Walsh, 53, has made his military service a main selling point. Still wearing his hair close-cropped, he notes he was targeted for killing by Iraqi militants and says his time in uniform informs his views on a range of issues.

But one of the highest-profile credentials of Mr. Walsh’s 33-year military career appears to have been improperly attained. An examination of the final paper required for Mr. Walsh’s master’s degree from the United States Army War College indicates the senator appropriated at least a quarter of his thesis on American Middle East policy from other authors’ works, with no attribution.

Dang, I hate when that happens (and you get caught)...

[Alpharatz]

I roach around on the internet checking out possible trade names, names of items etc. and it's getting pretty hard to find anything that hasn't been thought of already. How do you write a thesis on, for example, " The Civil War in Arkansas" that hasn't been beaten into submission already? Won't you just be re-arrainging words? And that's just in English.

[nsplayr]

I'm mean, that's kinda the point of academically rigorous research though, right? It's incumbent on the candidate to come up with an original topic...to add value to the subject.

Back in the real world, yea, not sure how guys in topics like Greek history or whatever are making that work...shit happened several thousand years ago and has been studied ever since.

p.s. - I read in several stories that this War College "thesis" was only 14 pages long...what? Even my extremely prestigious AMU degree required a little more horsepower than that. I know the Army is a bunch of knuckle-draggers but seriously...I thought Carlisle would require a little more.

[Fuzz]

He couldn't bullshit his way through 14 pages without directly copying 25% of it from other sources. Yep sounds exactly like someone we need working as a U.S. Senator.

[StoleIt]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/23/sen-john-walsh-cites-ptsd-in-thesis-plagiarism-explanation/

The PTSD caused him to plagiarize...

[SurelySerious]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/23/sen-john-walsh-cites-ptsd-in-thesis-plagiarism-explanation/

The PTSD caused him to plagiarize...

FFS. What an insult to dudes suffering from PTS.

[jcj]

I'm doing doctoral work now with a lot of writing in management and research methods- both common subjects for which there is a shit-ton of work already published. We are required to submit everything we write through Turnitin, which crosschecks for textual matches against a huge variety of other writing. I grant you I'm writing this stuff to demonstrate my mastery of common concepts, not to generate new ideas - but I'd suggest that would give me even more opportunity to plagiarize if I chose to.

It turns out that nothing I've written so far has tripped an alarm for plagiarism. In fact, the only matching text in any of my papers are things you'd expect to match, such as if I've included (and referenced) a direct quote, or my citation list (which will, of course, be identical to the original citations). In fact, I'm pretty impressed at how good the system is at finding matching text, and not flagging text that I've written completely on my own. I was concerned that with the huge amount of literature out there something I've written all on my own must match something someone else has written, but that just hasn't happened.

We can (and are strongly encouraged to) run our stuff through before turning it in to be sure we haven't inadvertently forgotten to reference something. And while Turnitin is a common system for this, there are others - including some you can subscribe to without any academic affiliation and are pretty cheap on a "per page" basis.

What this tells me is that it's not hard at all to avoid plagiarism, even if you're writing on common topics and arrive at the same conclusions as others. it's also really easy to get caught if the academic institution is making even a minimal effort at checking.

Writing on a topic that others have written on, doing your own thinking, research and writing, and using other sources (properly referenced) - and arriving at the same conclusion that others have - is not plagiarism or academic dishonesty. It may or may not be of academic value, may or may not qualify for publishing and may or may not meet the requirements for a thesis or dissertation, but it's just not academic dishonesty.

With that said, if what the NYT reports about his work is true, it's pretty clearly academic dishonesty - at least it would be considered academic dishonesty in the mainstream academic world. I see that the AWC plans to run his paper through a plagiarism checker, that's a great idea that they should have done in 2007 (yes, they were available then). Better yet, require the student to run it through and submit an originality report with the paper. It takes about 0.69 seconds. Maybe it wasn't quite so easy in 2007, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't that hard. The only way I see that he gets a pass is if AWC is willing to 'fess up that they just didn't address this with their students in that time period (I've had it beaten into my head at each of the four academic institutions I've done work at since 2008).

If the findings reported in the NYT are confirmed, he'd be screwed on an academic dishonesty violation at any major academic institution. Does that disqualify him from elected political office? I don't know about that one. You be the judge.

(edits - spelling)

Edited July 28, 2014 by jcj

[brickhistory]

If the findings reported in the NYT are confirmed, he's be screwed on an academic dishonesty violation at any major academic institution. Does that disqualify him foe elected political office? I don't know about that one. You be the judge.

Our illustrous current Vice-President got caught lifting passages from a Brit leader's speeches when he ran for President in 1988. Biden dropped out of the race.

Didn't even get raised as an issue in his 2008 and 2012 runs.

Walsh is running behind his GOP opponent even before this. This is just piling on and will finish him off.

Not that it's a bad thing...

[Fuzz]

A bit off topic, STEPHEN AMBROSE, the author whose nuts many of you swing off of, has plagiarized such a large percentage of "his work," it's difficult to know where to start: https://www.forbes.com/2002/05/10/0510ambrose.html

Whose nuts we swing off of? What the fuck are you talking about?

You always get a couple good posts in and then go tinfoil hat off the deep end again.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Fuzz

[ARIs 'R' Us]

What bothers me is that I post a laundry list of high profile plagiarists, including how our CURRENTLY SERVING PRESIDENT WOULD NOT BE PRESIDENT IF HE HADN'T PLAGIARIZED A WHOLE BOOK, and your only comment is questioning my statement that BODNers like Stephen Ambrose.

First of all, the 3 or 4 articles of yours I read we're all conjecture...not exactly the results of a scientific study. Googling "famous people who plagiarized" is not research. Saying that Ambrose plagiarized because he didn't put quotes around a particular paragraph, for exams, is pretty queepy. And I've never swung off of anything of his.

Second, If you believe the article (did you even read it?), Obama didn't plagiarize anyone else's work...he just had somebody write the book for him. That happens all the time. Being angry over that will do about as much good as worrying about his birth certificate at this point.

Finally, the book didn't make him president. His public speaking, promise of free stuff (healthcare/phones/etc), and his race made him president. Being the democrat option after Bush didn't hurt either.

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[brickhistory]

"Worked up?"

My reasoning for starting the thread was to show how the standard way to get through PME bit this guy in the ass because he got caught.

Others weren't thrilled about the douche trying to blame PTSD when he got caught after the fact.

That it comes out during the election is just gravy.

As to Obama, if the press didn't cover his plagerism, then it didn't happen as far as they are concerned. Hence, my pointing out Biden's track record wasn't even brought up during the 2008/2012 cycles.

Obama's elections are over. Can't unfcuk 'em now.

This guy can be a deserved political plagerism scalp if it's covered. Since the NY Times dimed out a fellow liberal by reporting this story, ergo, they don't want him to win or are trying to sell papers ginning up a controversy (gasp...shock, horror...).

[Clayton Bigsby]

I've met Sen Walsh, and without any editorializing on his behavior or political stances it was pretty amazing to see a person tasked to do opposition research following him intently, recording everything with a video camera. Even at a 4th of July parade in his hometown. They had one of his staffers trying to stand between the cameraman and the Sen, as best as he could anyway.

Amazing what's done for opposition research. Anything to win, right?

I just don't see how any sane person runs for major elected office anymore, you have to be a monk to not have something noteworthy. My internet browser history alone would disqualify me, I'm sure.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Clayton Bigsby

[Day Man]

I just don't see how any sane person runs for major elected office anymore, you have to be a monk to not have something noteworthy. My internet browser history alone would disqualify me, I'm sure.

I've wondered about this aspect, especially in this age of online-everything. I've come to the personal conclusion that if you don't bullshit me about what you've done, I'm more likely to support you than someone who claims sainthood (maybe not as extreme as Rob Ford, but you get the idea)

[guineapigfury]

I've wondered about this aspect, especially in this age of online-everything. I've come to the personal conclusion that if you don't bullshit me about what you've done, I'm more likely to support you than someone who claims sainthood (maybe not as extreme as Rob Ford, but you get the idea)

Did somebody say Rob Ford?

[338skybolt]

I just don't see how any sane person runs for major elected office anymore, you have to be a monk to not have something noteworthy. My internet browser history alone would disqualify me, I'm sure.

They're all hoping for a bj in the WH

[brickhistory]

Been a bad week to be Senator Walsh:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/25/us/politics/plagiarism-raises-ethical-alarm-at-military-school.html?_r=0

Not only is Army War College investigating, but now so is Big Army:

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-walsh-plagiarism-20140729-story.html

Several Montana papers are calling for him to resign in time for another candidate to run in the Democratic primary:

https://missoulian.com/news/opinion/mailbag/sen-walsh-plagiarism-choose-resignation-and-retirement/article_7b6d7728-17fc-11e4-8ad7-001a4bcf887a.html

Sometimes, you wonder about the things that can come back from the past to bite you in the ass...

[Clayton Bigsby]

And Walsh is out.

Current guesses are fmr Gov Brian Schweitzer and John Bohlinger to replace him. Bohlinger was Schweitzer's Lt Gov, and while appearing a bit unconventional is a pretty sharp guy, and Schweitzer is an immensely popular former Governor who unfortunately has become one of the MSNBC commentary blowhards for the last year.

Personally I had misgivings to Sen Walsh as the nominee to become Sen Baucus' replacement, due to a prior IG finding against him that ruled he'd abused his authority by ordering subordinates to pay and join a Nat'l Guard Association to further his personal political career.

[HeloDude]

His dropping out wasn't to save the Dem seat for MT...the seat is expected to flip regardless due to it being a midterm election, an unpopular President (especially in MT), and an already more 'red' State--unless of course the Libertarian candidate proves to be a spoiler. Rather, he dropped out of the race because it was a negative distraction to the Dem party, even if only a smaller one. Everybody remember Akins in MO and his 'legitimate rape' comment...it not only hurt himself, but it hurt his GOP party because the Dems effectivly used it to further their 'war on women' argument.

[brickhistory]

Big Green says, "No degree for you!"

https://onpolitics.usatoday.com/2014/10/10/john-walsh-plagiarism-war-college-degree/

[jcj]

Big Green says, "No degree for you!"

https://onpolitics.usatoday.com/2014/10/10/john-walsh-plagiarism-war-college-degree/

Expected (again, assuming what NYT published is true). In fact, AWC would have no other choice if they want to continue to be recognized as a legit academic institution. Today, Turnitin and similar systems are so good that it's pretty much impossible to get away with "copy-paste" plagiarism and it's really easy to check your work before you turn it in.

[Karl Hungus]

continue to be recognized as a legit academic institution.

LOL.