Is Command becoming that undesirable?

[Alaska_ABM]

Concerns the Navy, but how long until the Air Force needs it? The Navy restored the Aviation Command Retention Bonus...a bonus Navy Commanders receive once they assume command. Looks like 36K for agreeing to serve a set period of time, or at least until they are fired. Is the Navy losing too many O5 command potential/promotable officers, or is command just that undesirable that the Navy has to shell out the dollars to get some interested? Not a good sign to have to compel/pay officers to serve in a command position.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for bonuses in attempt to shape the force and keep critical skills (pilot, enlisted specialities), but command has always been held as a "pinnacle", and to need money to motivate or keep eligible (not necessarily capable) individuals around to assume command authorities is unnerving.

[ThreeHoler]

In the Navy, command means being worldwide deployable at a time most people want to stay home and not be parked off the coast of shitholistan without their family.

Lots of Navy people are turning down command screening opportunities according to my Naval Aviator friends.

[Tonka]

The more we try to solve our problems with money, the more money we are going to need to solve our problems.

[pawnman]

A potentially career-ending job where I will be raked over the coals every time a subordinate makes a mistake? Sign me up!

[Clark Griswold]

A potentially career-ending job where I will be raked over the coals every time a subordinate makes a mistake? Sign me up!

Amen - Every time at a previous assignment I saw in the base paper or on Friday at the gate a commander, first shirt and some hapless individual who got a DUI in blues passing out flyers for AADD; I had less and less faith in the ability of the AF as an institution to make rational HR decisions. I can't remember how many times the new boss, DO, first shirt, wing king, etc... gives the same speech and emphasizes DUIs, Sexual Harassment, etc... won't be tolerated and inevitably when a screw up happens, it's not just the individual's fault but leadership as if they had told said individual just one more time not to booze up and drive, he/she wouldn't have done it...

Just a casual observation but it seems the AF and Navy have the market on shit-canning leaders for infractions of those they command, anyone see the Army or USMC employ the same "one and done" mentality for subordinate infractions?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Clark Griswold

[jice]

A potentially career-ending job where I will be raked over the coals every time a subordinate makes a mistake? Sign me up!

This might be a ridiculous question, but what are the actual incentives for command? If an officer (with retirement secured) were standing at the fork in the road looking at getting out at considerable financial gain or staying in with the option of command, what would homo economicus do? If the answer is that the rational model would get out, spend time with the kids and buy nice toys, does this mean we are attempting to select for patriotism/internal motivation to serve alone? If this is the case, how do we discriminate between an individual calling to service and an individual calling to power?

[zach braff]

In my own career field, O-4s volunteer and compete for squadron command but all O-5s are automatically considered unless specifically approved by Senior Rater with justification as to why they shouldn't compete. So if you want to be a Lt Col you must also be okay with becoming a commander. Don't know if that's because there aren't enough O-5s for the billets or not enough active volunteers to build a command eligibles list.

That said, I haven't met an O-5 Sq/CC in my AFSC that didn't volunteer and want to be doing the job, but still - everybody is considered a command volunteer.

I still hope to command because I do believe that command is the pinnacle of officership. I have no career aspirations beyond Sq/CC. As such I think I'll have fun because I'd run my Sq without regard for what might happen to my "career" afterwards.

zb

[pawnman]

This might be a ridiculous question, but what are the actual incentives for command? If an officer (with retirement secured) were standing at the fork in the road looking at getting out at considerable financial gain or staying in with the option of command, what would homo economicus do? If the answer is that the rational model would get out, spend time with the kids and buy nice toys, does this mean we are attempting to select for patriotism/internal motivation to serve alone? If this is the case, how do we discriminate between an individual calling to service and an individual calling to power?

I don't know. It's also tough since you are essentially picking your leadership-path folks as mid-level captains. I bet there are plenty of crusty old guys who would make great commanders due to their experience and willingness to confront their bosses on BS...but we have to give those slots to the young guys to help their careers.

[ARIs 'R' Us]

Some do it because they want to spend two years of their life shaping a mission and helping out their Airmen along the way.

Others do it because they think they're smarter than the last guy (can do it better), crave being the "boss," and/or don't want to retire as a Lt Col.

I've had both. Doesn't really shock me that plenty of people are looking for it.

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[MSCguy]

I think there's some irony that this thread about "why would anyone want to be a CC" is currently right under the "Wing CC loves to fire SQ CCs" thread.

[DUNBAR]

Does anyone know what percentage of rated officers make O-6 with no command experience?

Sincere question, I genuinely don't know.

[Disco_Nav963]

Does anyone know what percentage of rated officers make O-6 with no command experience?

Sincere question, I genuinely don't know.

Don't have a number, but anecdotally from my last Sq/CC (who had come in from being on staff at STRATCOM) "you'd be surprised." Apparently the demand for O-6 staff officers exceeds the supply of graduated squadron commanders. I imagine it's harder to pull off though.

[busdriver]

Why would you want to be a CC? Simple, to make a difference. How awesome would it be to be in the position to actually say "that's queepy bullshit, we're not doing it" and the consequence? Who gives a shit, there is no better job after SQ/CC so it doesn't matter.

AMC is fucked up six ways to Sunday based on the recent firings, hopefully that shit doesn't propagate into the rest of the Air Force.

[Bergman]

I still hope to command because I do believe that command is the pinnacle of officership. I have no career aspirations beyond Sq/CC. As such I think I'll have fun because I'd run my Sq without regard for what might happen to my "career" afterwards.

zb

I agree with you. When me and a lot of my buddies came in, the goal was always O-5 and flying Sq/CC. That was, and still is in my book, the pinnacle. Anything beyond that is gravy. Imagine the good you could do for people and the USAF if you didn't give a shit about going beyond that!

Somewhere along the way we have become infested with back stabbing dipshits who all think they are GO material (Rhat, Bence, et al).

[Learjetter]

Does anyone know what percentage of rated officers make O-6 with no command experience?

Sincere question, I genuinely don't know.

Possible, but very long odds, and very dependent on your record versus the group you're competing with for a DP. Probably less than 10% of a given O-6 promotion list is comprised of non-post-command rated officers.

But it IS possible...I know several. It's also possible to get an IPZ DP with no command and no school in-res.

[Azimuth]

You can also make O-6 after being relieved as a Sq/CC. There was one person on the last LAF O-6 select list who fits in that category.

[HiFlyer]

Personally, I commanded three flying units (and Vice-Command of a fourth non-flying organization), two as O-5, two as O-6. I did it because I could help the mission, which I enjoyed, and it was fun. My incentive was to enjoy myself and mentor my new guys, not to make O-6 or general. I think the simple goal vice the "be the CSAF" goal, made the difference. If they wanted to fire me, so be it, I was still having fun.

[RASH]

You can also make O-6 after being relieved as a Sq/CC. There was one person on the last LAF O-6 select list who fits in that category.

Not that rare--just need a sponsor. I can name at least 6...

Posted from the NEW Baseops.net App!

[Lawman]

I agree with you. When me and a lot of my buddies came in, the goal was always O-5 and flying Sq/CC. That was, and still is in my book, the pinnacle. Anything beyond that is gravy. Imagine the good you could do for people and the USAF if you didn't give a shit about going beyond that!

Somewhere along the way we have become infested with back stabbing dipshits who all think they are GO material (Rhat, Bence, et al).

Its kind of amazing how much different we are between services. In Army aviation, Command that everyone views as the best time in your life is a Line Troop/Company as a Senior Capt. Everything after that is just a long down hill slide. Even the guys that make Battalion and Brigade level commands will flat say the most they enjoyed as far as a Command was the Line Company spot they held when they were a 6 year time in service O-3.

Then again the 2 Air Force LtCols I work with right now are amazed at how much differently they are treated when they interact with Conventional Army guys. A LtCol in the Army is a big damn deal where it seems like you cant swing a dead cat without hitting one at an AF Base.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Lawman

[pitts2112]

Then again the 2 Air Force LtCols I work with right now are amazed at how much differently they are treated when they interact with Conventional Army guys. A LtCol in the Army is a big damn deal where it seems like you cant swing a dead cat without hitting one at an AF Base.

You should try an Air Guard base. o.O

[60 driver]

How awesome would it be to be in the position to actually say "that's queepy bullshit, we're not doing it"

Unfortunately, that's getting increasingly difficult to successfully pull off, even in the Guard. The perception that sq CC's are being allowed less and less autonomy to actually command their squadrons is preventing a lot of guys who would make great squadron commanders from even competing.

Edited September 20, 2014 by 60 driver

[busdriver]

Unfortunately, that's getting increasingly difficult to successfully pull off, even in the Guard. The perception that sq CC's are being allowed less and less autonomy to actually command their squadrons is preventing a lot of guys who would make great squadron commanders from even competing.

That's unfortunate to hear from you, especially since I think squadron commanders should basically be demi gods allowed wide and free ranging authority to meet their doc statement however they want ( with the caveat that if you fail, you're done).

Then again, I've probably been tainted by too many years in the 57th wing. I admit I'm probably out of touch.

[JSChmed]

Unfortunately, that's getting increasingly difficult to successfully pull off, even in the Guard. The perception that sq CC's are being allowed less and less autonomy to actually command their squadrons is preventing a lot of guys who would make great squadron commanders from even competing.

Is that really just perception? Sqd/CCs need to ask permission from an O-6 for almost everything. Flying sched - Ops/mx grp/cc approve, TDYs. - Same, budget - Grp/cc, deployment spinup - grp/cc approval. 2407 because the sched changed - grp/cc approval. Christ, a sqd/cc can't even approve a static display for some JROTC cadets without grp/cc approval. The sqd/cc basically babysits and completes PRFs and OPRs.

USAF did throw them a bone and let them decide what color morale shirts their unit would wear though....... Sorry, I'm not going to spend 20 years in the military to work my way up to that. It could and should be much more, but this is an O-6's service.

[Learjetter]

Just one data point: in my last unit, the three guys with the "best" records who would compete well at Hawk or Eagle command selection boards declined to compete.

[pawnman]

Just one data point: in my last unit, the three guys with the "best" records who would compete well at Hawk or Eagle command selection boards declined to compete.

The guy who was DG in my SOS flight just got out. Several of the number ones at our base are also getting out. Several of the weapons officers I know plan to get out as soon as the WIC ADSC expires.

This is unfortunate, because those are the people we want as our leaders, and the people the Air Force wants as our leaders. Perhaps some of the buffoonery lately is because so few qualified, motivated people are out there to select for these positions that we end up with whoever is left.