Torture! (Here we go)

[Herk Driver]

"Sorry, Mr President: I don't dance."

Any time any evidence like this comes out about torture, it doesn't exactly help us win "hearts and minds" in the Middle East. The insurgency extends beyond Iraq and Afghanistan.

We weren't winning hearts and minds in the ME prior to 9-11...

[Homestar]

Today several news sources are reporting that ISIS beheaded 4 Christian children for failing to convert to Islam.

Waterboarding KSM 183 times is *not* "stooping" to their level. Their level is in a different universe of depravity.

I'm not saying that the ends justify the means. I do believe, however, that KSM an his ilk should have been killed in combat like Bin Laden was. If we didn't get any actionable intel from these guys, then we should have just put lead in their heads and taken their laptops.

[Lensatic]

The notion that torture (or the threat of torture) doesn't work is Armchair General BS. Immediate interrogation (enhanced or not) can be quickly verified and if it is, oh say, a lie, Sister Mary Teresa may be punish you. Not a good thing, trust me. ;)

LS

Edited December 14, 2014 by Len Satic

[SurelySerious]

Since we're having the moral/ethical discussion, saw this article. Interesting insight into the thinking of the guys in the ISIS fight.

Shiite Militias Win Bloody Battles in Iraq, Show No Mercy

https://www.wsj.com/articles/shiite-militias-win-bloody-battles-in-iraq-show-no-mercy-1417804464

Wrt what happens when they take an ISIS prisoner, "we get their confessions, and then we kill them."

[HeloDude]

Wrt what happens when they take an ISIS prisoner, "we get their confessions, and then we kill them."

Seems closer to how we do things...the current administration is cool with the killing part (see our drone policy)...just not the water boarding part (see our torture policy).

[Guest]

The notion that torture (or the treat of torture) doesn't work is Armchair General BS. Immediate interrogation (enhanced or not) can be quickly verified and if it is, oh say, a lie, Sister Mary Teresa may be punish you. Not a good thing, trust me. ;)

Could you try again with fewer typos?

Edited December 14, 2014 by deaddebate

[SurelySerious]

Seems closer to how we do things...the current administration is cool with the killing part (see our drone policy)...just not the water boarding part (see our torture policy).

It could probably be worded as, "We surveil them until they are no longer useful, then we kill them."

[Lensatic]

Could you try again with fewer typos?

Hey, one man's threat is, oh well. . . ;) And your reply to the post, minus the parenthetical typo, is?

LS

[ARAMP1]

[Warrior]

There's a lot more to this than Dianne Feinstein wants you to believe.

Here's another perspective.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644

I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[hispeed7721]

I'll just leave this here. Spot on as far as I'm concerned

https://sofrep.com/38885/tortured-folks/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest]

Hey, one man's threat is, oh well. . . ;) And your reply to the post, minus the parenthetical typo, is?

LS

"Sister Mary Teresa may be punish you"

[pcola]

I'll just leave this here. Spot on as far as I'm concerned

https://sofrep.com/38885/tortured-folks/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good article. Author does a great job of renewing focus on what many quickly lose sight of. Its important to remember the savagery of the enemy. I liked how he related Japan in WWII to the current threat:

Look at how Japan was dealt with in WW II. They make a pretty good comparison to today’s enemy: Dug into their home turf, fanatical, willing to use suicide as a weapon, and fans of swords. So when it came time to invade, we just nuked them. Zero fucks were given. And then, juuuuuust to be on the safe side, we dropped a second one on them a few days later. WE HAD TO BE SURE. Japan surrendered approximately 4 minutes later.

Of course, that was when we had serious men in charge of the country, facing a serious enemy. We knew, in order to defeat this scourge that was threatening the globe, that we had to utterly destroy not only their homes, but their will.

And look how that turned out. We took one of the most fearsome, belligerent warrior cultures on the planet and turned them into our housecat. They haven’t said ‘boo” in 70 years. Now when I think of Japan, I think of a polite people who make sex robots. Not bad!

[Lensatic]

"Sister Mary Teresa may be punish you"

Conceptual metaphor. ;)

ETA: May only work if you went to Catholic School in the '50s, though.

LS

Edited December 14, 2014 by Len Satic

[dvlax40]

Wow.

UFB.

Just wow.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/cia-torture-report/cia-paid-torture-teachers-more-80-million-n264756

sorry, but that is what upset me. There was little to no oversight on how these dudes were operating considering the extreme things they were doing. Im not against doing what needs to be done

[BFM this]

You may at some point come to understand that the report was crafted, by design, to upset you. It was released specifically to elicit an emotional response, decoupled from reason and informed thinking.

And taken at face value with no counterpoint, it is natural for you to be upset.

Despite the fact that I do not agree with all of the methods, I am not upset, but then I have the luxury of not being under the same illusions. Call back after MQT.

if the torturing actually led to anything usefull[sic]

There was little to no oversight

You were the target audience of this report.

Edited December 14, 2014 by BFM this

[dvlax40]

You may at some point come to understand that the report was crafted, by design, to upset you. It was released specifically to elicit an emotional response, decoupled from reason and informed thinking.

And taken at face value with no counterpoint, it is natural for you to be upset.

Despite the fact that I do not agree with all of the methods, I am not upset, but then I have the luxury of not being under the same illusions. Call back after MQT.

You were the target audience of this report.

I get your point man, i do.

[ClearedHot]

[busdriver]

I think the outrage is the strangest thing about the whole report. Didn't we already know that this shit was happening? Discussions about whether or not "torture" produces accurate intel is a red herring. I think our society is built on ends not justifying means, so the question is are these means acceptable? I really want to know where is this generation's Hanns Scharff?

[HeloDude]

I think the outrage is the strangest thing about the whole report. Didn't we already know that this shit was happening?

If you have surfed around the Huffington Post the last several days you'll have your answer--this was red meat from the progressives in the Senate to their progressive base, simple as that, since like you said, the basic information wasn't new. The Bush administration (where this was happening) has been out of office for 6 years, but when your party just took a beating in the Senate, you're losing your control in a few weeks, and obamacare is still front and center (especially now with Gruber)--all means you have to take your wins where you can get them. It's a way to still look somewhat relevant to your bread and butter who put you in office. What's funny is that the majority of the country disagrees with Senate report on whether or not we should have done what we did/should do it again.

My question is why isn't the Attorney General and his DOJ filing any prosecutions against these horrible CIA people? It's either this bad or it's not.

[pawnman]

The notion that torture (or the threat of torture) doesn't work is Armchair General BS. Immediate interrogation (enhanced or not) can be quickly verified and if it is, oh say, a lie, Sister Mary Teresa may be punish you. Not a good thing, trust me. ;)

LS

If we have the means to verify it, then it isn't exactly new intel.

There was this article detailing why the military should be the most pissed about the CIA torturing people.

https://taskandpurpose.com/american-military-pissed-cia-torture-report/?utm_source=TP-Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=american-military-pissed-cia-torture-report

The mere release of this study is not what strengthens our enemies or weakens us. The fact that we engaged in acts of torture, while simultaneously casting the war on terrorism as a struggle between good and evil, is what strengthens our enemies, weakens our position in the world, and puts our brothers and sisters at risk. It is difficult to argue that America is a beacon of hope — the exception to the rest of the world — and imply a sense of moral superiority over the enemy that mutilates service members and civilians it captures, while we conduct lengthy interrogations that result in death, severe psychological trauma, and anal fissures and rectal prolapse.

Edited December 15, 2014 by pawnman

[Lensatic]

If we have the means to verify it, then it isn't exactly new intel.

We are approaching this from different perspectives. As an Infantry soldier who just caught the bad guy who blew up my buddies, a gun to his balls when asking where the next IED is is fresh info. Now, he wants to be a martyr, not a eunuch. If he lies, I will know in a few minutes and he will be singing soprano at the next Eid celebration. If he tells the truth. . .he gets to hang out at Club Gitmo. Maybe.

But, specifically to your quote above, it would verify if this guy is telling the truth in this one instance. Complicated, ain't it? ;)

LS

[Prosuper]

WW2, Civil War, Indian Wars, Etc. Did we starve American's and force upon them a punitive occupation during reconstruction? Did we march Indians from Georgia to Oklahoma because whites wanted their land even though we signed treaties with them as a sovereign nation? Did we imprison Japanese Americans? Did we massacre Indians while they slept on more than one occasion as the Cavalry raided their village even though Black Kettle flew a US Flag from his lodge? Hey I'm going to call it what it is, nice guys finish last. When War is started all rules of human morality are thrown out with only one rule."Win and survive" . I think the American people are losing the will to do what is necessary and what the price actually is when it is as close as a You Tube video.

[Fuzz]

We are approaching this from different perspectives. As an Infantry soldier who just caught the bad guy who blew up my buddies, a gun to his balls when asking where the next IED is is fresh info. Now, he wants to be a martyr, not a eunuch. If he lies, I will know in a few minutes and he will be singing soprano at the next Eid celebration. If he tells the truth. . .he gets to hang out at Club Gitmo. Maybe.

But, specifically to your quote above, it would verify if this guy is telling the truth in this one instance. Complicated, ain't it? ;)

LS

Rolling up a jihadi on the battlefield and roughing him up to figure out where his friends are so you make it back to your FOB is different than this. Flying a guy from AFG to Europe and extracting information for months about the inner workings of an organization does not qualify to take extreme measures. Now I haven't read through the entire thing but on the surface things like water boarding, sleep deprevation, and cold baths don't fall under toture. Edited December 15, 2014 by Fuzz

[Lensatic]

Now I haven't read through the entire thing but on the surface things like water boarding, sleep deprecation, and cold baths don't fall under toture.

Agreed. I think it's called SERE training. ;)

As to the other part of your reply: perhaps. Immediate action response is dependant on the mobility of the Bad Guys. But, as in the (supposed*) case of UBL, his mobility was restricted and information gathered at a later date may have, and perhaps did, produce actionable intel.

(*Supposed because we've seen no evidence whatsoever of his death. And yes, I do believe that he is dead.)

There are interrogators and there are torturers. They are not, necessarily, the same.

LS