Shhhh...Don't talk about the A-10

[Lawman]

Absolutely...one of the big pushes to move to the 25mm was the significant increase in slant range before experiencing any tumbling and being completely ineffective.

I can't really speak to how much of a difference that would make for the forward firing guys; there's way smarter bros who understand the ballistics of a run in vs orbit shooting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your really just adding two major factors:

Bullet Jump - caused by the wind impact vs the bullets spin causing it to move up or down dependent on direction of the wind

Port/Starboard effect - where the bullet gains inertia in the direction of flight.

Neither of these is a factor if you have any kind of weapons processor accounting for these factors. If the gun is mechanically traversed, or the sight adjusts to predict impact so you correct a hard mounted gun to achieve your desired point of impact you negate these factors.

Outside that firing a gun forward vs firing a gun sideways isn't really too different. We see slightly wider dispersion on off axis shooting with our turret but it's not significant enough to call it a game changer. Mostly we avoid off axis shooting because it puts stress on the ammo drive carrier increasing the likelihood of a jam.

[xcraftllc]

The new 30mm Bushmaster 11 Mark 46

Mk44*

The thing that gets me about those guns though is the poor rate of fire and weight. I know you could step it up to about 600 RPM for an aviation application (like the Apache's), but even with 2 that's still only 1200 RPM, and you would start to risk barrel warp from overheating. Add to that the fact that they weigh 344 lbs, if you had two of them, their combined weight would be more than a GAU-8 anyway. The Avenger really hit the nail on the head.

https://www.orbitalatk.com/defense-systems/armament-systems/automatic-cannons-chain-guns/docs/MK44_Bushmaster_Fact_Sheet.pdf

[Clark Griswold]

See that's the funny thing about JSF/F35

Nowhere In the Marines requirement for a Harrier replacement did 5th gen LO become a requirement. It was a 4.5 gen program (like super hornet) to get a VSTOL aircraft that could do more than bring a single 500lbs bomb and a laser maverick to the fight. It was only when they (Congress and the Pentagon) folded 4 programs together to the JSF that 5th gen became something that had to happen with VSTOL.

Figures. This clip has probably been posted in another thread but probably a good analogy to what happened.

[waveshaper]

Mk44*

My mistake/some clarification; The MK46 Gun Weapon System (GWS) contains the MK44 Automatic Cannon.

[pbar]

A scaled-up Rutan Ares (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_Composites_ARES) might make a good A-10 replacement.

[Lawman]

A scaled-up Rutan Ares (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_Composites_ARES) might make a good A-10 replacement.

I don't think we want to start sending our Airmen into harms way in a plane that can be shot down by a P-38....

[busdriver]

pbar, I was thinking along those lines. Something still capable of stable slow speed flight and long endurace, but better high speed cruise. I'll admit wasn't thinking about a tank killer, more an unimproved strip fighter that can rapidly deploy. Call it the CAS version of Rapid Raptor.

ETA: Come on Lawman, it's a concept not a production aircraft.

Edited April 12, 2015 by busdriver

[ClearedHot]

Serious question for the Hog dudes and AC-130 types. If we were building a legit follow-on CAS aircraft, would a 30mm cannon be worth the 40% (rough I know) weight increase over a 25mm? I curious how small / light / cheap could you make this notional aircraft.

The answer as always is, it depends. Some are in favor of putting the GAU-8 on the new gunship, while another camp is DEAD set against that COA. An understanding of gunship employment is important because they way a Gunpig would use the 30MM is very different from the way a Hawg would. Nothing against the A-10 but they are obviously limited to forward strafe so they make gun runs using very accurate high volume short bursts. The Gunpig is always over the target and always pointed at the target (always in the bad guy WEZ as well), so it does not need the same high volume delivery. A-10 bubbas please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you employ the GAU-8 AT 6,000 RPM...while the 30MM and 40MM shoot MUCH slower (200 RPM and 100 RPM respectively). Even when the AC-130H's had the 20MM there were "slowed to a respectable 2500 RPM because there were seen as suppression weapons. When I learned to shoot my old head IPs would have me spell my name in the dirt with the 20MMs so I could develop the fine muscle memory need to employ the 20MMs in a dynamic situation or against a mover. Employment of the 30MM and 40MM is much different, while you can put the guns into a rapid mode and sling a lot of rounds, it is usually better to act as a high volume sniper and that can shoot in VERY close proximity. On one rotation in Afganistan I was supporting a team that was about to be overrun, I ended up shooting the bad guys at about 17 meters, a lot of pucker factor but the slow, steady, accurate volume of fire from the 40MM made it the ideal weapon for that particular fight. The 40MM and 30MM (MK-44), are also very good in urban environments. On many occasions our guys would get wrapped up in house to house fighting and we would be forced to engage a target on the other side of a street...sometime the other side of a wall. If there is a draw back to the 30MM and the 40MM its that you usually need a direct hit to kill someone. Yes they throw frag and often the frag will wound, but we learned early on that the bad guys would go to ground and even though it looked like the frag was taking them out, we would come back a few minutes later to scan the area and the bad guys would crawl away. We changed our tactics and had a montra in the squadron, "shoot until they leak."

According to wikipedia the GAU-22 is supposed to have 1.4mil dispersion. Assuming the bullet doesn't start tumbling that could make for some very long range strafing, my understanding is that the 25mm made it's way onto the AC-130 because the 20mm was doing exactly that, hispeed does that check?. Obviously that doesn't account for kinetic energy.

No...a common myth was that the 20MMs would slow and "tumble...in reality as the threat drove employment to higher altitude and thus longer slant rangers, the velocity decay of the bullet resulted in a loss of enough kinetic energy to cause detonation at impact. The old 20MM fuses were very safe, I've been on the range with EOD types would will reach down and pick them up barehanded, I've actually seen dudes juggle undetonated 20MM's. The 25MM on the other hand is a different beast. The same EOD guys who would handle 20MMs on the range would see a 25MM, place a red flag, and keep a wide birth away from the projective.

[Lawman]

pbar, I was thinking along those lines. Something still capable of stable slow speed flight and long endurace, but better high speed cruise. I'll admit wasn't thinking about a tank killer, more an unimproved strip fighter that can rapidly deploy. Call it the CAS version of Rapid Raptor.

ETA: Come on Lawman, it's a concept not a production aircraft.

I'm guessing you've never seen Iron Eagle III?

It was the villan's plane.

[brewskis]

I'm guessing you've never seen Iron Eagle III?

It was the villan's plane.

Bullshit. That was the super-secret Me-263.

[MD]

A-10 bubbas please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you employ the GAU-8 AT 6,000 RPM.

We used to have gun rate high and low back in the day, Selector switch on the gun panel. @4000 was high, 2000ish was low. They were all permanent high rate by the time I showed up.

[TreeA10]

Slow rate apparently created vibration that cracked bulkheads.

[busdriver]

Good Shit CH, thanks.

[xcraftllc]

A scaled-up Rutan Ares (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_Composites_ARES) might make a good A-10 replacement.

Nope

pbar, I was thinking along those lines. Something still capable of stable slow speed flight and long endurace, but better high speed cruise. I'll admit wasn't thinking about a tank killer, more an unimproved strip fighter that can rapidly deploy. Call it the CAS version of Rapid Raptor.

ETA: Come on Lawman, it's a concept not a production aircraft.

Still nope. Nope Nope Nope.

[busdriver]

Care to expound on the nope, nope, nope?

[xcraftllc]

Even a beefed up version would still be really sketch as a close support machine. Just a couple bullet holes through any composite is a nightmare and will basically ruin the airframe. If not it certainly isn't quickly repairable in a forward-deployed location like such an aircraft would be used in. Although it could kinda do all of the missions the A-10 does, it certainly wouldn't pack the punch when it came time to do a major mission. We've kinda gotten too used to light loads over the last 10 years of the GWOT. As we see in Army Aviation, the continued improvements in Apaches and UAVs have made really small close-in aircraft like the Kiowa less desirable. Even though the Kiowa is really cheap to operate. Improvements on the Air Force side have swayed them away from that mentality as well. Also, single-engine is fine for high and fast flying aircraft like the16 and 35, and composites are ok as well if your plan is basically never to get hit, but not down in the dirt. In a sense, such an aircraft would be an AF version of the Kiowa only it wouldn't be rapidly field-repairable.

[busdriver]

I think composite fear is over stated by many, it's not as tolerate of dirty repair conditions but it's not impossible. That said, I don't think the concept of a smaller, updated version of the A-10 requires composites nor a single engine. Oh well, I'll certainly never be involved in building an A-10 replacement so it's all mental masturbation anyways.

[xcraftllc]

Yeah, who knows man. Add politics and money to the mix, and it's almost an exercise in futility to think about the practical aspects of the design anymore these days anyway.

[HU&W]

The rest of the story... Maj Gen Jerry Harris to be the new ACC Vice.

[ViperStud]

Win. JD is the kind of guy you always hope makes general.

[Day Man]

Win. JD is the kind of guy you always hope makes general.

Devil's Advocate: people said that about Welsh too...

(I know he's an upgrade from his predecessor, just unable to affect change.)

[xcraftllc]

https://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/capitol-hill/2015/04/27/a10-funded-house-armed-services-markup/26463167/

Sad irony that the photo features A-10s from the 188th, which now flies UAVs though...

[Tank]

And so it begins again...

https://www.stripes.com/air-force-if-a-10s-stay-f-16s-headed-to-the-boneyard-1.342983

[xcraftllc]

This better be more political gamesmanship and not actually what the Air Force would do. At least toward the end there is actually some rational talk about finding ways to make it work. There is also a similar article in the AF Times that quotes Sen Kelly Ayotte as saying such talk is political BS:

"After the F-35 program executive Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan raised the issue last fall and said he was worried about the impact on IOC, Sen. Kelly Ayotte, R-N.H., said there are other ways to move money and personnel to support both the A-10 and F-35.

"Suggesting that we must prematurely retire the A-10 to fulfill long-anticipated maintenance requirements for the F-35A is a false choice," Ayotte said in a statement to Defense News, sister publication of Air Force Times. "There are a variety of steps the Air Force can take to maintain the combat-proven and cost-efficient A-10, while also providing sufficient maintenance personnel for the F-35A.

Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh has vowed to reach initial operating capability on time, despite a possible issue with having enough maintenance personnel. This includes hiring contractors and increasing use of Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve personnel."

[Guest]

https://www.appropriations.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hearings/050615%20Secretary%20Carter%20Testimony%20-%20SAC-D.pdf

https://www.defense.gov/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=1936

SECDEF Carter written statement to the Senate Appropriations Committee for the FY16 DOD Budget Request / Wednesday, 6 May 2015

The Air Force budget also supports a timeline that would phase out and retire the A-10 in Fiscal Year 2019. With the gradual retirement of the A-10 that we’re proposing, the Air Force will better support legacy fleet readiness and the planned schedule for standing up the F-35A by filling in some of the overall fighter maintenance personnel shortfalls with trained and qualified personnel from the retiring A-10 squadrons. As you know, F-35 maintainer demand has already required the Air Force to use the authority Congress provided last year to move some A-10s into back-up aircraft inventory status. I should note that the Air Force is doing so only to the extent that it absolutely must, and so far intends to move fewer A-10s into this status than what Congress has authorized. I know this is an important issue, and DoD looks forward to working with you on it.