B-1 Moves to AFGSC

[Prosuper]

i'm sure a change in MAJCOM with give the maintianers the magic powers they've so baddly needed.

That would only happen if they went back to the Guard . When Georgia and Kansas had them they were in the high 80's, They had old farts working on them.

[08Dawg]

The 307th Bomb Wing (think AFRC Buffs at KBAD) just stood up a reserve bomb group at Dyess, so maybe there's hope.

[SuperWSO]

When I first showed up in the KANG, we had guys who had worked on F-100s, Thuds, F-4s, Vipers and the B-1. Those guys could fix anything. I saw them R^2 an engine at brief time, an hour prior to step. The sortie took off on schedule.

[brabus]

I saw them R^2 an engine at brief time, an hour prior to step. The sortie took off on schedule.

Holy shit. Are "what if's" open?

[papajuice77]

Continued tangent alert - the biggest problem the B-1 has wrt maintenance is the complexity of the aircraft versus the limited experience of the maintainers working on them. I have seen many pro-supers become extremely frustrated with guys who take 2 or 3 times longer to fix things because they order the wrong parts, have to repeat the process several times, or simply take longer to swap pieces or complete checks because they are relatively inexperienced. That isn't meant to impugn MX; the new dudes take time to learn and get better - just like you wouldn't expect MQT guys to execute at a high level of skill. Nothing about the B-1, or any national bomber asset, was designed with extreme simplicy in mind. It's a complicated airplane, and as such, it takes a lot of learning and hands-on-training with MX. However, it is amazing how quickly the guys who have been in the B-1 for years can get jets turned.

Back to GSC - this seems like a logical move to be honest. A large part of GSC leadership is comprised of B-1 guys, and it might therefore be an easier place for the B-1 to be appreciated. Time will tell, but perhaps the jet and community will be better served as the only asset used extensively in current combat operations in GSC as opposed to being the red-headed bomber stepchild of ACC. Perhaps the command will be able to highlight that the B-1 has many mission sets and that it is not just a CAS wagon. Additionally, although it has been mentioned that the Bone might be a sacrificial lamb for LRS-B in the future, that's a far cry better than being rolled into the mass barn-burning ACC has to do for the sake of F-35.

(Disclaimer: all of this is my opinion, and of course, in no way represents the official position of AFGSC, ACC, or the USAF writ large; there is far too much logic herein).

[12xu2a3x3]

When I first showed up in the KANG, we had guys who had worked on F-100s, Thuds, F-4s, Vipers and the B-1. Those guys could fix anything. I saw them R^2 an engine at brief time, an hour prior to step. The sortie took off on schedule.

because those guys probablly had a TO open whatever page and did forms and CAMS while the jet flew.

[SuperWSO]

because those guys probablly had a TO open whatever page and did forms and CAMS while the jet flew.

Yeah, that would be the AD bitch. You've got an MC rate 30% better, but you forgot to flip to page 69 covering panel fasteners. Got it, that totally invalidates the work done. Good thing you took em back, we might have continued to make em fly.

Edited April 24, 2015 by SuperWSO

[SocialD]

That would only happen if they went back to the Guard . When Georgia and Kansas had them they were in the high 80's, They had old farts working on them.

You just can't compete with the experience level of Guard/Reserve maintainers. If I recall correctly, the MC rates of the B-1 (maybe the 130J too) went up significantly when they handed them over to the Guard.

When I first showed up in the KANG, we had guys who had worked on F-100s, Thuds, F-4s, Vipers and the B-1. Those guys could fix anything. I saw them R^2 an engine at brief time, an hour prior to step. The sortie took off on schedule.

We still have crew chiefs who have crewed the same jet since we got them in the early 90s, many have crewed the same jet for 15+ years. The average rank of our flight line crew chiefs has to be E-6. If it's not drill weekend, I regularly get launched out by master sergeants, sometimes a senior. We have lots of maintainers (or any enlisted person) who serve 35-40 years. Hell my first Chief when I enlisted back in 01, is just now retiring with 38 years in military...Cheif for over 15 years.

because those guys probablly had a TO open whatever page and did forms and CAMS while the jet flew.

Ha, really going to go with that? I recently flew another squadrons jet who had just received them from the AD. Those things were a mess! From what I understand their MX grounded a few jets, immediately upon arrival. They wouldn't let their guys fly them until they unfucked all the issues (a few big WTF problem) they showed up with.

Edited April 24, 2015 by SocialD

[brabus]

Those things were a mess! From what I understand their MX grounded a few jets, immediately upon arrival. They wouldn't let their guys fly them until they unfucked all the issues (a few big WTF problem) they showed up with.

I'm shocked. Of all the monumental amount of MX terribleness I've seen in my career (and continue to see), 80% is the fault of shitty MX leadership, 10% is the fault of shitty mid-level leadership on the line (SSgt/TSgt level) and maybe only 10% I would even remotely consider putting on younger guys, but that's even a stretch. If the MX career field on AD could unfuck their terrible leadership, things would be much better. Every time I run into good MX leadership, they seem to be the exception, rather than the norm. It's sad.

[12xu2a3x3]

^^^this

[Fud]

My best guess is that this has everything to do with:

*Having a new four star lead the command*

1. 3. Money

2. Expanding GSC Commander job positions.

3. 1. Upcomming GSC Manning issues at Staff, etc.

FIFY

Also, we saw this in my last assignment on the IG team where we went back to what they did roughly 25 years ago.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Fud

[Whiskey_Neat]

I'm shocked. Of all the monumental amount of MX terribleness I've seen in my career (and continue to see), 80% is the fault of shitty MX leadership, 10% is the fault of shitty mid-level leadership on the line (SSgt/TSgt level) and maybe only 10% I would even remotely consider putting on younger guys, but that's even a stretch. If the MX career field on AD could un###### their terrible leadership, things would be much better. Every time I run into good MX leadership, they seem to be the exception, rather than the norm. It's sad.

As a former MX officer at Ellsworth (09-12) I can tell you that the majority of the issues that we faced stemmed from a former mx group cc who's policies gutted the community of skilled mid-level technicians. It was further compounded by the fact that the Rockwell that built the bone ceased to exist. As the B-1 flew into the 10,000 hour milestone, some previously uncommon problems became much more common and the parts for those fixes dried up quickly, including parts from the boneyard.

When I first PCSd to Ellsworth, the MC rate was hovering around 30% when I left it would regularly touch 60-70% Where it sits now, I have no idea. But maintenance on that jet is a fair bit more complicated than just blaming leadership.

[MC5Wes]

I left the Air Guard in 1999. So im not sure how they are today.

But since September of 2007 when the Air Reserve decided to mandate the wearing of the uniform for all ARTs during the week. The Reserve has been on a tear to decimate the ART program. Between absolute adherence to Active Duty F2F and the TFI program. All of the old time ARTS I have worked with have retired. Transferred to DCMA or went straight civilian like I did.

[brabus]

the majority of the issues that we faced stemmed from a former mx group cc who's policies gutted the community of skilled mid-level technicians.

Shack...seen that exact act 3 times now. Seems like very few good MX officers stay for the long term.

[pawnman]

As a former MX officer at Ellsworth (09-12) I can tell you that the majority of the issues that we faced stemmed from a former mx group cc who's policies gutted the community of skilled mid-level technicians. It was further compounded by the fact that the Rockwell that built the bone ceased to exist. As the B-1 flew into the 10,000 hour milestone, some previously uncommon problems became much more common and the parts for those fixes dried up quickly, including parts from the boneyard.

When I first PCSd to Ellsworth, the MC rate was hovering around 30% when I left it would regularly touch 60-70% Where it sits now, I have no idea. But maintenance on that jet is a fair bit more complicated than just blaming leadership.

The rates at Dyess are not as good...but Ellsworth is still maintaining a fairly high reliability rate.

I was there from 08-13, and I saw the change first-hand. I also saw a concerted effort to get ops and MX on the same page...we went from finger pointing in wing stand-up to coordinating prior to stand-up to make sure we were telling the same story. From threatening to call the O-6s to offering some other solutions and/or compromises first. From yelling at each other over the radio to talking cordially, face-to-face, at the step desk. It was much better.

[Whiskey_Neat]

Shack...seen that exact act 3 times now. Seems like very few good MX officers stay for the long term.

It's that kind of gross mismanagement that guts not only mid-level technicians, but also the young maintenance officers. 5.5 years of 12-18 hour days with countless tdy's and multiple deployments is what finally got me. I know many other motivated young officers who felt the same way before getting out.

[Prosuper]

From what I saw working on all types T's F's C's and B's the Guard has the best jets with the Reserves as good if they don't share their iron with a active duty wing. On the AD side if they have a good thing going it doesn't last more than 2 years due to Gr,Sq, CC's being swapped followed by a moron. If a wing has good Dedicated Crew Chief program which most MX officers hated because they hated the manpower it soaked up but it was good for some jets and others not so good for the Dedicated wasn't worth a crap. MX seems to be ran by communists where all decisions have to be made in a office to include troubleshooting, I've gone on numerous MRT's before cell phones and constantly got bugged from home station by having some poor Airman from base ops driving out begging me to call home and then demand I order a part I don't need so they can say something at wing stand up. I also blame E-8's and E-9's not being Seniors and Chiefs who know how to get promoted but not having a clue what a wiring diagram/ schematic looks like and screwing guys who did. My solution would be have a sizable civilian WG's who have experience to keep continuity and help train the kids, plus being civilians they would be moron officer proof ops and mx. I believe senior officers would hate that due to them not having to wear a uniform and grooming standards example ARTS putting uniforms on during non UTA days.

Presently I'm getting KC-135's post docked and flown out of PDM, it takes less time, weeks, Guard, compared to months McConnell/Fairchild jet to get delivered back to the customer. Thank God the test and mx crews are very picky before the jet gets FTA'd.

[Azimuth]

I'm shocked. Of all the monumental amount of MX terribleness I've seen in my career (and continue to see), 80% is the fault of shitty MX leadership, 10% is the fault of shitty mid-level leadership on the line (SSgt/TSgt level) and maybe only 10% I would even remotely consider putting on younger guys, but that's even a stretch. If the MX career field on AD could unfuck their terrible leadership, things would be much better. Every time I run into good MX leadership, they seem to be the exception, rather than the norm. It's sad.

Because Maintenance has the same cancer that plagues the rest of the USAF. Good people care about the mission and want to turn a jet for a mission. And there's other, more senior people, who only care about offduty education, volunteer opportunities, and face time (sts) with senior leaders to get that next assignment, job, or strat.

After being in a AETC assignment, with contract maintenance, I'm very skeptical about the quality, compentency, and honesty of an AD maintainer wearing less than five stripes. Sometimes it feels like my crew is buying a used car when reviewing the forms of some jets and asking about certain write ups.

[brabus]

Sometimes it feels like my crew is buying a used car when reviewing the forms of some jets and asking about certain write ups.

I want to laugh at this analogy, but its too true in so many places.

[SuperWSO]

Favorite AD MX stories from Dyess circa 2002-2003. We had one crew step to a jet that was broken. They asked for the spare and were denied. When they asked why, the response was, "if you take the spare, we won't have a spare."

New jet, new day, crew gets involved in discussion pre-step about deferred MX. A fairly basic problem was being pushed off. When asked why, MX reply was that accomplishing the required fix "might" show the fire blanket around the motors was torn, necessitating a red X and replacement. They were putting off basic MX knowing there was a bigger problem.

Prize winner: going out to fly a very high vis test sortie, a former maintainer out to support the test said his friends back at Tinker (B-1 depot) were surprised we were taking this particular jet on account of the large cracks discovered in the longeron. No notes in forms, but discussion with MX confirmed they were discussing it over the last week. We elected to take the spare, then move the weapons to a third jet before going.

[Right Seat Driver]

Because Maintenance has the same cancer that plagues the rest of the USAF. Good people care about the mission and want to turn a jet for a mission. And there's other, more senior people, who only care about offduty education, volunteer opportunities, and face time (sts) with senior leaders to get that next assignment, job, or strat.

After being in a AETC assignment, with contract maintenance, I'm very skeptical about the quality, compentency, and honesty of an AD maintainer wearing less than five stripes. Sometimes it feels like my crew is buying a used car when reviewing the forms of some jets and asking about certain write ups.

Being at LTS has spoiled you. I cannot count the amount of time I step to a jet and ask the Crew Chief about an issue and they look at me like I am crazy. It isn't their fault, they just happened to show up 30 minutes prior to me, but I wish the Mx dudes had the knowledge on issues with the jet instead of having to call their bro to ask a question that just left after a 12 hour shift.

I picked up an LTS jet last summer for a tail swap, and the Crew Chief had worked that same tail as a young Airman when it was an A-model. A fvcking A-model! It was a humbling experience and it made me wish that AD Mx had at least some semblance of continuity with tails.

Hell a DCC program would solve a number of issues but AMC seems against the idea with the exception of the WG/CC's jet, and even then the DCC never touches the damn thing.

[Champ Kind]

I've been in a unit with a true DCC program, and it was noticeably different (in a good way). The fact that they were still getting planes fresh off the assembly line could not have hurt either.

[Prosuper]

Hell a DCC program would solve a number of issues but AMC seems against the idea with the exception of the WG/CC's jet, and even then the DCC never touches the damn thing.

Would help if the USAF wouldn't constantly strip 7 levels from a mx sq for other jobs, i.e. recruiter, MTI, and take them away from MX for years. Senior E's think it is a good idea that a enlisted should be Airmen first and screw your job. Most E-8's and E-9's sucked in their primary AFSC and were constantly moved just so that a shop could get something done which looked good when his records went to a Senior or Chief boards. Been sent back to the desert many times just to replace the poster boy who is there not getting anything fixed and flown. It was the kiss of death to be a MSgt who was good at his job and kept on the flightline because they made money for his wing but could not get promoted. I wish the O-6's on those boards would be able to see what a guy did for the mission and not just for himself. Our career paths look too much like officers now with assignments that have nothing to do with out primary AFSC's.

[Azimuth]

The AMXS/CC here told us he's 80 NCO's short of what he's supposed to have. Another problem for local sorties here is that only 5/7 levels deploy, which means most of them are deployed. That also means a lot of young 3-levels are left to launch/recover your jet at home. One thing that MX needs to stop doing is that CUT program. Nothing is more frustrating asking general Crew Chief questions and having a Comm Nav and E/E troop being the ones that's launching the jet and have no idea how to answer the questions.

[12xu2a3x3]

I've been in a unit with a true DCC program, and it was noticeably different (in a good way). The fact that they were still getting planes fresh off the assembly line could not have hurt either.

i wouldn't know, i've never experenced that. "my jet" and was at depot for days before i even knew; i was working someone else's. was briefed by depot about developing a better working relationship with dccs or pretend dccs, and had some great ideas going both ways. supposed to send a crew chief and avionics out to okay the tctos only to have one guy get sent to depot for two or three jets because he was AGR and it was just easier.

Edited April 27, 2015 by 12xu2a3x3