ADS-B in Military Aircraft

[HuggyU2]

The F-16 mid-air has generated a lot of discussion on ADS-B in the civilian world. Not that there wasn't a lot already.

My question:

What is the DoD going to do (if anything) with respect to installing ADS-B on military aircraft?

If they are going to do it, what's the timeline?

Which aircraft?

I think I probably know the answer, but it's pure speculation on my part, and I figure there are at least a few knowledgable folks here that are smart on the issue. With that, I'll shut up and avoid showing ignorance.

Thanks. Discuss...

Edited July 29, 2015 by Huggyu2

[ThreeHoler]

KC-10 is getting it now. KC-135 has it.

[Azimuth]

KC-10 is getting it now. KC-135 has it.

Yep, the KC-135 has had it for a few years with Block 40. Crossing the ocean is pretty sweet without making position reports.

[NKAWTG]

Not yet on the KC-135. It has ADS-C, not B. Different beast all together. ADS-B will require aircraft to have a new(er) transponder able to talk to the ground stations. If the RVSM compliance is a guide, then we will ask for waviers until they no longer grant them, and then act like we never saw it coming. A forward looking organization would have POM'd for this. I have no idea what the Air Force did.

[LookieRookie]

There is a plan for the trainer aircraft to add it.

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=175f1576da840d47e6d19bc1d24f4214&tab=core&_cview=1

[nunya]

As of January, AFFSA was saying it's a standoff between FAA and DOD. DOD expects waivers, FAA says not this time.

[GBock]

KC-135 does not have it, not even in B45. Most of the MAF aircraft have it funded with installations starting in FY-18. The ones that dont already have it funded have it as part of a high priority AMP or CNS/ATM upgrade and should still have it by 2020.

[ThreeHoler]

Holy crap, we got something before the rest of the MAF? That's new.

[Slander]

Vipers got mode S with the one of latest tape upgrades. The Germans get pissed when the Spang guys don't use it in the training airspace (or misspell their call signs, or have the number wrong) even if mode 3 and C are working. Vipers can't interrogate it or use it unless it's out on the link like Brabus said in another thread. If it's not within my radar field of view then I'm looking outside.

Edit: Typo.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Slander

[HuggyU2]

Vipers got mode S with the one of latest tape upgrades.

What about any plans to upgrade Vipers to ADS-B?

Why are the Spang pilots not using Mode S consistently and properly?

If it's not within my radar field of view then I'm looking outside.

Which, with the limitations of radar, would make ADS-B a step up in safe operations.

When I was flying into Oshkosh last week, they had everyone squawk standby within 30 nm. ADS-B will be a welcome change in that environment.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Huggyu2

[rv10]

My NAvWorx ADS600-B shuts down when transponder goes into standby mode. No transponder, no ADSB.

I went standby at Ripon on arrival and left it on automatic when departing. The day I departed it seemed as if I had 15-20 aircraft about half my speed ahead of me in the departure conga line. ADSB was a great help finding and avoiding these aircraft, including a couple bozos that thought it was better to start the inbound turn to Ripon about 5nm south of the airport. Then there was the one Cessna bozo that flew the rail road tracks west to Ripon. That got everyone's attention.

Flying into Oshkosh last week, they had everyone squawk standby within 30 nm. ADS-B will be a welcome change in that environment.

Edited July 29, 2015 by rv10

[stract]

the HH-60 is supposed to be getting it "soon" - it's being tested at the CTF right now (so I'm told). It's only ADS-B Out, so won't help us, but will help others see us.

The IRC Hot Topic about it says everyone in the NAS has to have ADS-B Out by 1 Jan 2020.

[Whitman]

My NAvWorx ADS600-B shuts down when transponder goes into standby mode. No transponder, no ADSB.

I went standby at Ripon on arrival and left it on automatic when departing. The day I departed it seemed as if I had 15-20 aircraft about half my speed ahead of me in the departure conga line. ADSB was a great help finding and avoiding these aircraft, including a couple bozos that thought it was better to start the inbound turn to Ripon about 5nm south of the airport. Then there was the one Cessna bozo that flew the rail road tracks west to Ripon. That got everyone's attention.

I could still see traffic on my Dynon ADSB module with my transponder in standby last week. Traffic Information Service (TIS-B) is a great capability.

[R-Dub]

Not sure ADS-B is going to solve all of the potential terminal area accidents like this midair. This accident happened in airspace that won't mandate ADS-B in 2020, and most Cessna 150s probably won't have ADS-B upgrades more often than those that do. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but more technology isn't going to make flying low/near congested airspace fail safe or without some inherent risk (although the risk is significantly less). Keep your nuggets on a swivel, all!

[brabus]

What about any plans to upgrade Vipers to ADS-B?

Well below the cut line - not going to happen anytime soon. As R-Dub said, this is not going to stop accidents. Even if you make the "reduce" claim - well, how many fighter midairs are there with civilian aircraft? Not enough to be statistically relevant / demand a fighter has ADS-B.

[brewskis]

When I was flying into Oshkosh last week, they had everyone squawk standby within 30 nm. ADS-B will be a welcome change in that environment.

Watching my Foreflight ADS-B picture of the departures out of OSH when I was departing Appleton on Sunday was....eyeopening and scary. I'm glad I had something that gave me some SA on the VFR traffic that was leaving the event. It was an asset.

[HuggyU2]

As R-Dub said, this is not going to stop accidents.

Based on the preliminary information, it might very well have prevented the F-16 mid-air.

[matmacwc]

Vipers should be receive only on this system.

[moosepileit]

More likely to be out only with a kill switch and a few checklists with an added on/off choice.

You'll wind up missing the "In" unless they do more than add an out transceiver, transponder coupler and antenna. Maybe another IFR WAAS GPS feed if the feds get sticky or DoD won't give tron access to what you now have.

Interstingly, the FAA is looking at requiring a beacon in all aircraft, Gliders first, there is a TSO but no hardware vendor meeting the spec.

ADSB out is only going to be a mandate for planes with electrical charging systems, and not in ALL airspace.

Still mk1 sense and avoid for cubs until?

I'm going to get a 250 knot homeybuilt with just a battery and starter just because I can. My transponder cooked on the way home from OSH in the RV6, breaking out another $500. bah.

Will allies' aircraft get similar mandates or funding to fly here?

I too wonder if the feds thought about keeping DoD adsb out off the internet.

Edited July 30, 2015 by moosepileit

[HuggyU2]

Invest that $500 in ADS-B.

Although many are waiting for hardware costs to come down (they are already low), the avionics shops are soon going to have more work than they can schedule for just ADS-B installations. And at that point, the labor cost is going to skyrocket due to supply and demand as the calendar approaches 1 Jan 2020. I'm sure you will see people scheduling installations 1+ years out very soon.

It will also have the effect of preventing other avionics work from getting done: they'll be too busy doing ADS-B installs.

I was in an industry briefing recently where they showed the number of work days left, the number of qualified avionics shops, and the number of GA aircraft that will need ADS-B installs. If their data is accurate, it is starting to get ugly now.

The other thing they are seeing is a surprisingly higher-than-expected number of owners are planning to get ADS-B Out only, but once they see what the full system capes are, they are laying out the money for a full system.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Huggyu2

[R-Dub]

Based on the preliminary information, it might very well have prevented the F-16 mid-air.

What in the preliminary report makes you say that ADS-B would have made a difference in this instance? As you've heard, there isn't a push for fighter ADS-B yet. Maybe Congress gets involved and SAF/AQ and the SPOs have to change their tune, but if it was 1 Jan 2020, this accident could have still happened. That Cessna is not that likely to get ADS-B out because there's simply no need for it on the shear overwhelming preponderance of flights for your typical Cessna-150 sortie.

Invest that $500 in ADS-B.

I was in an industry briefing recently where they showed the number of work days left, the number of qualified avionics shops, and the number of GA aircraft that will need ADS-B installs. If their data is accurate, it is starting to get ugly now.

I've been hearing this for years now! Those estimates are always incredibly over-inflated! I'm willing to bet a large percentage of GA don't convert to ADS-B out for years after the mandate because they simply won't have a dire need. Just like this incident, the airspace/aircraft utility won't require it. There's plenty of people who will wait to see how the roll-out of the reg change works and waits for the cost/"swamped avionics shops" to normalize. I know I'm in no particular rush.

Only my $0.02. Take it for what it's worth.

[hindsight2020]

Yep, count me in on the Dec 2019 crowd. I already have a 430W, which qualifies as position source for any dumb blind Out-only box. I don't need TIS-B in my flying life. The only thing I've made frequent and practical use of in my recreational and traveling with family flying, is FIS-B. I get that from any portable single-band portable puck, like my skyradar puck. So I'm straight. You guys can knock yourself out counting blips on an ipad while I look out the window and use flight following, like I have for the past 15 years.

I'll comply with the Out mandate at the latest possible moment. It's gonna be alright. My hope is by 2017 when the FAA is forced to comply with the part 23 re-write, all this becomes a non-issue as the new "primary non commercial" category allow me to put non-TSO avionics on the certified spam can and turn the thing into a de facto experimental, which will drive certified avionic solution pricing structure through the bottom.

As to the Viper mid air, I love TCAS on my 38, it is incredibly useful in the environment we fly this thing. Same thing for TAS in the T-6 (el cheapo TCAS substitute). I truly favor the TAS/TCAS solution for the military side over the ADSB thing, but I know big blue doesn't have it as priorities for the fighters, so who are we kidding. Guess that means more head swivel for the fighter guys.

[moosepileit]

Huggy, I will NOT buy new parts yet, you gotta have a transponder in my plane and for ADSB-out, but you know that.

Folks will be selling their early-adopted ADSB-out kits for newer avionics by the time I bite.

Freeflight Rangr straps onto mode 3A/C for $2k. Down in 1 yr from a $4k solution. Before installation. I have ILS but no IFR WAAS, for now. The install price and hidden costs of matching avionics to aircraft is going to be as much a stopping point as any shop backlogs.

I will not do it anytime soon, just avoid mode C rings after 1 Jan 2020 IF I chose to wait.

I would pay $1100 for a solid state transponder, but will fly that $600 in avgas first and throw in a KT76A and put the other on the shelf if it's easily repaired. I don't feel like installing a new tray yet for anything solid state.

I only need a shop to check my work, not for the install of ADSB out in a homebuilt- I already have a consult on what they need from my last transponder cert- they can crawl under my panel and check my work. It's 1 radio, 2 properly spaced antennas, one little heed to catch the mode 3 squawk squirt and a breaker. 978 UATs are easy once you know all the compatability issues.

I doubt mode 4 and up IFFs are going to be simple to integrate ADSB in small jets.

For $479 I have "In" on my EFIS and smartphone already. How is anyone going to get ADSB In presented on their DoD displays?

Mode S is a bit too Lojack self-disclosing, It's only needed for class A airspace and outside the country.

Like TCAS, ADSB won't show traffic without a transponder. All are to be in stby at Oshkosh within 30 miles- how the heck was it worth having some on when most of us were strangled and mk1 only?

False sense of security?

Have departed Oshkosh in mil planes twice, quite eye opening, even with an IFR squawk and quickly above the flow.

Lots of words and a bit of thread bleed...

I bet someone will point out that without ADSB-Out we don't show up easily on freely-streamed websites. That makes tons of sense. I doubt that would be the case with ADSB-out unless NEXGEN is smarter than I believe.

Edited July 30, 2015 by moosepileit

[DFRESH]

ADS-B is a terrible idea in a fighter. Too exploitable. I built an ADS-B radar scope at home for $40.

[Whitman]

FYSA, for you those of us that fly GA and use ADSB: TIS will disappear from your screen starting in 2016 from any ADSB units that do not have a 2020 compliant transponder and GPS (garmin 430 or the new $500 Dynon drop replacement for ex). The FAA has announced this to try and increase compliance ahead of the mandate. The next Dynon update will continue to allow TIS to continue to 2020 without certified GPS, but I'm not sure on navworx or other ADSB units out there.

This debate is interesting but in it's context (F-16 mid-air) we can't miss the forest for the trees.

Maybe others have the inside scoop and just my early opinion, but I think ATC error, Pilot error, and Task management will be causal factors. ADS-B traffic would've only improved one of these, ATC error. That's only loosely since it would've only allowed the Viper driver to do ATC's job (traffic separation).

Maybe he turns 180 heading faster than 18 seconds with TIS on the screen in this accident? Could it be another distractor to bring the pilot's eyes inside? I was heads down last week entering class C and inputting my squawk for flight following, almost fat dumb and happy, and saw a glider (no radio or transponder) frozen in my lower canopy, co altitude less than 1/4 mile away. Keep your eyes peeled guys!