C-130 down in Afghanistan

[Sprkt69]

Anyone else hear about the dude at Kirtland getting railroaded by leadership for SIB findings?

[stract]

31 minutes ago, Sprkt69 said:

Anyone else hear about the dude at Kirtland getting railroaded by leadership for SIB findings?

check PMs.

[Jaded]

Wasn't there a C-17 pilot reprimanded for SIB results as well?

[HerkStud]

Anyone else hear about the dude at Kirtland getting railroaded by leadership for SIB findings?

What happened?

[Sprkt69]

On January 9, 2016 at 7:50 AM, HerkStud said:

What happened?

Just Kirtland leadership driving a bus

[Bode]

..... I'm guessing this isn't a discussion for this forum? I would like to hear more if I could.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[drewpey]

https://www.amc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123472467&source=GovD

 

https://www.amc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-160415-009.pdf

 

[Vetter]

Do you not do a flight control check before takeoff in a C-130?

[Robo]

There is no flight control check after EROs in the J model. It is only accomplished on initial take off or after you've shut engines down and have a subsequent take off.

[Vetter]

Gotcha.  I can't remember if we did a flight control check in the Hog after hot pitting.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Vetter

[Day Man]

F*ck.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Day Man

[Dupe]

1 hour ago, Robo said:

There is no flight control check after EROs in the J model. It is only accomplished on initial take off or after you've shut engines down and have a subsequent take off.

Sounds like there will be soon.

 

Edited April 16, 2016 by Dupe

[Soku39]

2 hours ago, Vetter said:

Do you not do a flight control check before takeoff in a C-130?

We do in the legacy Herc via the before takeoff checklist after the closeout of the ERO ops stop checklist. Since I've been flying it everyone said "previously checked". After this everyone has stopped saying previously checked and accomplishes a full flight controls check. 

[Herk Driver]

We do in the legacy Herc via the before takeoff checklist after the closeout of the ERO ops stop checklist. Since I've been flying it everyone said "previously checked". After this everyone has stopped saying previously checked and accomplishes a full flight controls check. 

The J rolls right to takeoff from the ERO checklist vs utilizing the before takeoffs again. To your point, I have noticed the same thing happening in the H with the actual accomplishment vs "previously checked". That report is gut wrenching.

[brabus]

Whether in a 152, viper, or C-5, it makes sense to do a flight control check EVERY time before taking the runway for takeoff. Who cares what a T.O. does or does not say, or how many times that day you've already done it. This should be flying airplanes 101 taught when getting your private or at IFS. Frankly I'm surprised to hear it is/was common practice to not do this. Regardless of what you fly, take the 6-9 sec to do one prior to rolling onto the runway. Its basic airmanship and obviously could very well save yours and maybe others lives. 

[di1630]

My jet has no flight control check per checklist except for the efcs bit....but I sure as hell do one every time before I release brakes. "Flight controls free and correct" since my first flying lesson.

[Clark Griswold]

21 minutes ago, gearpig said:

I had imagined that the NVG case was placed low on the yoke down near the rudder pedals. I was surprised to see that the NVG case obscures about 1/2 of the primary flight display (or whatever it's called). Can you takeoff in the J model with NVGs and HUD without ever referencing the PFD? Honest question.

I think their HUD can count as a PFD 

This is a RAF crew but I am pretty sure the same goes for USAF.

[Warrior]

I had imagined that the NVG case was placed low on the yoke down near the rudder pedals. I was surprised to see that the NVG case obscures about 1/2 of the primary flight display (or whatever it's called). Can you takeoff in the J model with NVGs and HUD without ever referencing the PFD? Honest question.

Yes.

[Warrior]

Sure seems like a lot of self righteous assholes in here believing that a flight control check is such basic enough airmanship that you would never takeoff without doing one.

I get it. As pilots, that's how this works-we all believe it could never happen to me.

Someone else pointed out that in the H we always said "previously checked" on the flight controls step of the before takeoff checklist when we were running it after an ERO. In hindsight that's a shitty practice-but until this crash most guys would tell you the flight controls have been checked. Today. By me. What could have happened to them since then? And it's not even a step on the ERO checklist in the J.

I'm glad some of you are good enough to never consider making a mistake like that. Apparently you're so good you would have identified that it wasn't a checklist step and should have been.

For the rest of us-There but for the grace of God go I. Don't be a douche, these guys weren't idiots. Learn from them.

[brabus]

Take the emotions out of this.  Nobody is saying these guys were idiots.  We all have survived multiple screw ups that could very well had ended the other way; we all screw up. Two of my good friends weren't idiots idiots either, were great dudes and above average pilots, but in the end, complacency kills.  I sure as shit have made many a mistake and missed a flight control check (and many other things), but it was due to task saturation/distraction, not due to "the T.O. doesn't say I have to, so I won't" or "it was good last flight, nothing could possibly happen/a part fail in between flights."  I think its a dangerous mindset to say, "what could have possibly happened since I last looked?" or "it's not in the checklist, so it."  That is absolutely the wrong approach to teach people (especially young, impressionable people).  This was not one of those unidentified, obscure things nobody thought of until a mishap occurred; it is absolutely something that applies to every aircraft, and again, should be taught to everyone who learns to fly, military or civilian.  This is not shitting on people, it is highlighting the extreme importance of the "simple things."  Scoff simple things (consciously or subconsciously) and it can end very badly...there's tons of accident reports that point to that, and as you mentioned, we're all vulnerable 100% of the time to making simple mistakes that end tragically. 

 

[Herk Driver]

3 hours ago, brabus said:

Take the emotions out of this.  Nobody is saying these guys were idiots.  We all have survived multiple screw ups that could very well had ended the other way; we all screw up. Two of my good friends weren't idiots idiots either, were great dudes and above average pilots, but in the end, complacency kills.  I sure as shit have made many a mistake and missed a flight control check (and many other things), but it was due to task saturation/distraction, not due to "the T.O. doesn't say I have to, so I won't" or "it was good last flight, nothing could possibly happen/a part fail in between flights."  I think its a dangerous mindset to say, "what could have possibly happened since I last looked?" or "it's not in the checklist, so it."  That is absolutely the wrong approach to teach people (especially young, impressionable people).  This was not one of those unidentified, obscure things nobody thought of until a mishap occurred; it is absolutely something that applies to every aircraft, and again, should be taught to everyone who learns to fly, military or civilian.  This is not shitting on people, it is highlighting the extreme importance of the "simple things."  Scoff simple things (consciously or subconsciously) and it can end very badly...there's tons of accident reports that point to that, and as you mentioned, we're all vulnerable 100% of the time to making simple mistakes that end tragically. 

 

 

I started to comment yesterday and decided against it, but a couple of things to think about.

In a larger aircraft when you do a flight control check as a pilot, your flight controls have been checked by someone (in the H it's by the FE and crew chief) physically and visually to confirm correct deflection during the -1 preflight. That is the last time that proper deflection can or will be checked without working outside of established procedures. Once that is done, every other flight control check is to check for binding and/or free movement. Presumably that would have helped in this case...maybe not. They may not have noticed that the yoke was not going full forward. There definitely would not have been binding of the controls due to this issue.

Additionally, the pilots checked the flight controls prior to the initial takeoff. The way that Herks operate there are normally multiple stops (average of 3-6) on one mission without ever shutting down engines.  Some of those stops are for 5-10 minutes (some are for much longer) and you only opened the crew entrance door and dropped off one guy and taxied back out for takeoff.  The primary reason for accomplishing a flight control check when loading/downloading cargo is due to the fact that you have MHE in close proximity to two major control surfaces and it is possible that something was hit or bent by a forklift and/or pallet without anyone noticing or speaking up.  However, as has been stated, it is always a good idea.

Gearpig, yes, the HUD in the J model is considered primary instrumentation and certified for IFR flight. There is no other PFD required and with limited screens there are other more important items to display.  The yoke blocks part of the screen directly in front of the pilot to begin with.  The little bit of additional blockage of the one MFD was not likely noticeable at night on NVGs and multiple attempts to recreate it in the sim also went unnoticed by the crews.

This is a tragic event that could have been avoided and we all need to learn from it. It seems to me that in my corner of the world that most have learned the lesson. Sounds like multiple other platforms and people already knew it and good on them.

Don't let your brothers in arms die in vain. Take whatever you can from their tragic accident report and apply it to your flying career and avoid doing something that writes the next one in your blood. I have been flying the same airplane for nearly 22 years and read lots of SIBs and AIBs and heard about some things that I thought I would have never done. You never know what will happen until you step to one particular aircraft on one particular day.  God bless the families of those that perished on Torqe 62.

Good luck to all you guys as you continue on your way in your AF career. 

Edited April 17, 2016 by Herk Driver
Added some info for clarity

[brabus]

Herk, thanks for the good info.  Is it feasible for the load to jump outside real quick and do a control check with the pilots, then hop back in, shut the door, and go?  I know you can't see all of the control surfaces/assess correct and full movement from the cockpit of every airplane, but it seems the way around that in a larger aircraft would be have the load, flying crew chief, etc. go outside and watch real quick as the pilots check every direction.  Obviously this whole process is much easier for guys who can see all their flight controls from the cockpit.  I remember years ago when the T-38 crashed at CBM, killed both pilots, all due to f'd up flight controls that could have been caught in a pre-takeoff check.  Not long ago a civilian jet (Citation, etc.) crashed on takeoff and killed everyone because they didn't check the control lock was not installed (it was).  There's at least one story of flight control cables being installed incorrectly in an Eagle; don't remember if the pilot survived or not.  Bottom line, everyone please learn from these tragic events - I wish I could say this mishap was the first time a flight control related issue could have been found with a check prior to T/O, but it's not.  It does not matter what you fly, put this in your habit patterns somewhere; it's smart and could save your life.

[ThreeHoler]

RE: the F-15C had the control rods reversed. Same size connections but they were color coded...too bad you can't see into that section of the wing when doing the work by hand. The AF crucified the MX guys...separate tragic story ending in suicide. The pilot "stirred the pot" but never really checked the controls. Pilot morted.

Years ago, my 78-year-old CFI taught me "thumb's up, tab's up" and I used that whether I was flying a Cessna, the Tweet, KC-10, or anything else. That said, I'm not sure I'd have done it after the first takeoff of the day unless MX had been done during the ground time.

I could possibly see myself doing something like that if it was a common technique in the community. Although I hope I would use another technique a really old crusty guy taught me: if you ever do anything to make a plane non-flyable, put a flight glove over the yoke horn (or stick).

Even a dumbass like me will look at it and go "now why the did I put that there?"

A toast...and my heart breaks that we have more -1 ink written in blood.

[disgruntledemployee]

Gents, the real issue here is that the pilot intentionally blocked the flight controls and then forgot about it; CP forgot too.  He did something non-standard and there wasn't a checklist item to catch it.  Holding the yoke back was/is a common J community technique for their ERO, but I doubt blocking the controls with a pelican case was common. 

As for a Load checking the controls, who knows if a LM would have been able to see the difference from normal to blocked. But I stand by my biggest point, which is never intentionally block your controls.

This was one of the hardest briefs I've ever listened to.  I really learned something, even beyond the flight control issue.  I hope everyone here does too.

Out

[Toasty]

This is the answer...I have never, ever heard of someone blocking a flight control in my ten years of flying the Herk.  This was the outlier. 

It was also a young crew, and I absolutely understand a 2-man cockpit making mistakes in the desert at night.  This one just bit harder.

 

Herks do a LOT of stops each mission, often times only 20-30min apart with 5-10min on the ground.  Very easy to overlook things, and I'm always grateful we have an FE in the H to keep us honest.