AFRC Stoploss

[whatup123]

Not sure if this is legit.  Saw an MFR signed by JJ stating no separations/retirements til Nov 16.

 

Edited January 26, 2016 by whatup123

[Warrior]

Such details. Much information.

[ThreeHoler]

See photo of AFRC letter on JQP's Facebook page.

[BFM this]

Lot of comments along the lines of "this is SOP, happens every year."

By the letter posted, someone approved for separation on 30 Sep could separate 1 Nov.

That, by definition, is not Stop Loss.

[deaddebate]

As said above, this is nothing new.

2015 - https://i.imgur.com/qiXDVAY.jpg

2014 - https://i.imgur.com/lW8Bf1T.jpg

2013 - https://i.imgur.com/Aib28E3.jpg

2012 - https://i.imgur.com/mlpglWh.jpg

This is a game played by the AF to boost numbers when reporting annual NDAA end-strengths.  I saw some older versions of this going back to 2000, but it may have more history than that.  Folks are allowed to stop participating, they are technically still in and could conceivably be recalled, though I haven't heard of it ever happening.

[Prozac]

6 hours ago, deaddebate said:

As said above, this is nothing new.

2015 - https://i.imgur.com/qiXDVAY.jpg

2014 - https://i.imgur.com/lW8Bf1T.jpg

2013 - https://i.imgur.com/Aib28E3.jpg

2012 - https://i.imgur.com/mlpglWh.jpg

This is a game played by the AF to boost numbers when reporting annual NDAA end-strengths.  I saw some older versions of this going back to 2000, but it may have more history than that.  Folks are allowed to stop participating, they are technically still in and could conceivably be recalled, though I haven't heard of it ever happening.

All of these letters put a 6 month stipulation on separating/retiring.  The latest one states:  "Therefore, voluntary and involuntary reassignments to the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR), retirements, and voluntary and involuntary discharges from the Selected Reserve approved between 1 Feb 16 – 30 Sep 16 must have an effective loss date no earlier than 1 Nov 16.”  

1Feb - 1 Nov = 9 months.  Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't there always been guidance requiring a 6 month lead for retirements/separations?  Is there a legal basis to extend that requirement by three months?  Also, these letters also state something to the effect that they are needed to ensure separations are appropriately staggered throughout the year.  But by forcing a backlog of people waiting to retire/separate, aren't we accomplishing the exact opposite? 

 

[Gazmo]

Well if it's anything like the Guard, we've got people pushing the button without warning left and right. People are tired of non-stop desert rotations and we've had waves of retirements after each and every CENTCOM "plus up".

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[ClearedHot]

Not seeing any threads yet, but AFRC is instituting Stop Loss effective until November 2016.  I would imagine Stop Loss on the active component is right around the corner.

[Azimuth]

On the Enlisted side AFPC released a list of AFSC's and ranks from SrA to MSgt being granted HYT extension up to 24 months past their original HYT.

 

Hollow Force

[xaarman]

Did you read the notes on that? They're like one big FU.

If granted above 15 years TIS, you are specifically denied TERA benefits.

No longevity bonuses

Subject to all 180/365s 

At no cases will you allowed to service beyond 18 years TIS

 

etc etc... why would anyone even consider that?

[Jaded]

I don't even understand how stop loss would work in the aviation community. It takes so much motivation and effort to be a safe pilot - if I was a sq cc, I wouldn't want stop lossed pilots flying my airplanes. 

[BFM this]

2 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

Not seeing any threads yet, but AFRC is instituting Stop Loss effective until November 2016.  I would imagine Stop Loss on the active component is right around the corner.

Not really a stop loss, as far as I can tell; appears to be a standard force management paper drill from one FY to the next.  Reading the memo, one could request transfer to IRR of 30 Sep and get an approved date of 1 Nov.  Not very stop-loss-ey, imo.

[ThreeHoler]

It was on JQP. It must be true!

[ClearedHot]

6 hours ago, BFM this said:

Not really a stop loss, as far as I can tell; appears to be a standard force management paper drill from one FY to the next.  Reading the memo, one could request transfer to IRR of 30 Sep and get an approved date of 1 Nov.  Not very stop-loss-ey, imo.

If yesterday you could get out whenever you want and today you can't get out until November...that seems like a stop loss to me.

[Jaded]

Active duty stop loss rumors on JQP's Facebook page: " John Q. Public The source, which I can't share yet, is an email to commanders in the field to begin socializing the prospect of stop loss for certain career fields. It makes sense given that CSAF admits we're 15%-20% undermanned, yet today's budget rollout holds end strength at 317,000. They've got no margin and will need the policy if there are any more unforeseen manpower bills."

Anybody seen this email or have more info?

[ThreeHoler]

I haven't seen it, but I did hear a good rumor about a 13-year UPT ADSC being floated for discussion.

[ImNotARobot]

Not directly on topic, but applies to the discussion I think.

Last UTA, my Reserve base just had a visit from the AFRC/A3 to brief the ARTs on retention. The picture did not look good, and they are bouncing any potential ideas to (1) keep the current ARTs attracted to stay, and (2) continue attracting potential baby ARTs.

The core problem from my perspective is a simple numbers game. The older ARTs who already have 20+ years of federal service are doing the math (adding 1% for each additional year to the already secured civilian retirement vs. starting an airline career in their 40s). The potential new ARTs are doing even more lopsided calculations where they'd had to stick it out for 20 years as an ART to realize any retirement, vs the beauty of starting an airline career possibly in their late 20s. 

There is no golden carrot that a government job could possible offer that counters becoming a millionaire while progressively working less for more money. 

As a former Active Duty pilot, I'll say that the great thing (which totally works against AFRC) about the Reserves is the openness in which we discuss careers options that ACTUALLY benefit ourselves and our families. We have airline cockpit posters up all over the squadron, most of the TRs fly for major airline X, the TR squadron commanders are airline guys. So the discussion about doing what's best for your family is open and honest. On AD, these conversations do not exist. Every pilot with the potential to jump is playing those cards close to the vest until the very end due to overbearing leadership forcing everyone to project a false facade of loyalty to the company. It's total bullshit, with fake "support" coming from AD commanders that everyone knows is not genuine.

There is not one person in my Reserve unit that would ever say "Oh, FedEx just called you? Before you take the interview, let's talk about how wonderful your ART job is and the impact on the unit if you left." All (including commanders) would actually say "You're an idiot if you don't take the interview and the job if offered. That's what I would do."

[scoobs]

Are Art's home more nights than flying for the airlines?

[Duck]

Easy solution. Approve Palace Chase Apps with 3 years left on AD, thus getting a guy 6 years in the guard/reserve. Not all the dudes I talk to want to go to airlines, some just want to work for a place that isn't out to screw them every chance they get in the name of making rank.

[sqwatch]

the "doubled" commitment does not hold you to a GS job (ART). it holds you to a service commitment (think one weekend a month) and does not solve the problem folks leaving GS jobs for more dough with the airlines.

[Duck]

Agreed. However, a lot of guys I know aren't looking for the airline gig. But rather just want to live a more stable life for their familia.

[sqwatch]

Including this guy, but the big issue is active and guard/reserve are having trouble retaining

[ImNotARobot]

I will say it's nice to have options. For an IP making $100k as an ART plus however much military time I can handle is a totally sustainable career. Just pointing out that after the 20-year civilian retirement is secured, kids may be out of the house off the college, then might be time to start jumping into an airline career. I understand that the ART jobs were the best deal going directly after 9/11, and now with this airline hiring boom that has reversed (depending on the individual family situation). 

I'd also say that the ball is in AFRC's court on determining queep levels that will drive guys away from the ART jobs. If the ART job starts to smell too much like Active Duty, I'd have no problem reverting back to TR status, especially if I waited to have an airline job in hand. To me, the ART retirement, @ 1% per year, is not the golden egg around which I'm building my future.

The ability to make decisions and tell the AF to back off is exactly why I got off AD. AFRC is a comparatively great deal (no sarcasm).

[Gazmo]

If anyone ever had aspirations to be an airline pilot, now's the time to go. I came off AD as a Palace Chaser almost 10 yrs ago, troughed and took every MPA, temp ART, temp AGR tour I could at my ANG unit while I waited for the "old heads" furloughed from Brand X (or on mil leave) to go back so I could pick up something permanent. I've been an ART for almost 4 years now and this gig is just not something I see myself doing anymore. It's an exhausting job. It's WORSE than AD in my opinion. Yeah, I'm home a lot and pretty much get to control my schedule, but I'm at the unit 10hrs a day, not including the few 15 hr days per month we night fly to burn our AFTP's. All while our AGR bretherin are making twice the coin to work less.

What's worse than AD is that full-time manning is not enough to run the operation at the ops tempo we're at right now. Back in the day when the airlines weren't doing well, there were Lt's and young Capt's running around the squadron looking for projects to work on and helped a lot of the ART's out with random duties. That's not the case anymore. All of our Lt's coming back from UPT are landing jobs with the regionals. The workload has gone up. Our O-4/5's are doing admin duties an E-3 should be doing and the flying mission suffers from it. TR's are not participating as much because we're shoving PACOM and CENTCOM rotations down their throats every year. ART's fill a lot of our flying schedule to keep the flights from cancelling. People are done and one by one, our ART's are leaving for the airlines. Even AGR's are thinking about leaving before 20. I've passed up 2 AGR opportunities in the past year to remain a free agent for when I get my call.

They've thrown around the idea of offering ART's a bonus, but nothing official has materialized and honestly, they're about 5 yrs too late. Most of the legacy companies first year pay is $75-80k with 2nd year pay around $110k; to WORK LESS! That's a lot more attractive than it used to be.

Another thing most people don't realize is that ART's hired after Jan '14 now pay 4.4% into their FERS instead of the .8% it used to be before 2013. Figure out how much of your money is going into paying your own pension when you retire. $4,500 per year ON TOP of the TSP. This compared to Brand X doing a 16% direct deposit 401k.

If I was a brand new Lt out of UPT, I'd probably go for a GS-13 time just so I could fly my arse off at the unit, upgrade to AC/IP in as short of time I could and go to a major, but even then... I'd probably get to a major faster if I got hired with a regional and flew 1,000 hrs per year.

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[ImNotARobot]

6 minutes ago, Gazmo said:

If I was a brand new Lt out of UPT, I'd probably go for a GS-13 time just so I could fly my arse off at the unit, upgrade to AC/IP in as short of time I could and go to a major, but even then... I'd probably get to a major faster if I got hired with a regional and flew 1,000 hrs per year.

The workload has gone up. Our O-4/5's are doing admin duties an E-3 should be doing and the flying mission suffers from it. TR's are not participating as much because we're shoving PACOM and CENTCOM rotations down their throats every year. ART's fill a lot of our flying schedule to keep the flights from cancelling. People are done and one by one, our ART's are leaving for the airlines.

They've thrown around the idea of offering ART's a bonus, but nothing official has materialized and honestly, they're about 5 yrs too late.

I can't deny any of that logic. It all depends on where a particular guy is in life. If I was a young Lt growing up in AFRC, that ART money makes a lot of sense as I build hours toward the airline minimums. Why not get paid more (although it does come with some type of desk job) while you're waiting. What I don't understand are the Lts who choose to slug it out at a regional airline while building those hours. I do see your point about potentially getting into a major sooner, but holy crap, in the balance of effort vs money, the Reserve squadron flight line seems like a no brainer. I don't know of a single regional where it's anything more than a temporary pain endured to build hours. I guess if the trough at Reserve unit X isn't paying the bills, I would understand.

I'm also seeing ARTs picking up more admin queep duties, driving almost every ART I know to keep those airline apps up to date. If the timing were perfect and every one of those guys got hired in the next year (which is possible), the ART corps, which is already hovering at around 60% AFRC-wide, would be decimated. Those few left behind would most certainly get an increased workload while listening to those newly minted airline guys talk about the good life once a month during UTA. What's the incentive to stick around? Your 5-year "too late" argument holds water there.