Active shooter at Lackland

[Duck]

I agree with MXQA we should let SF protect us. When seconds count, SF is only minutes away!

If only they were more worried about security and less about Lts walking back to the pilot projects drunk or pulling over dudes going 3 mph above the speed limit...

Thank God this was just one wacko who wanted to off his commander and not a REAL active shooter scenario. The body count would have been much higher.

[MXQA]

So, where does the trust begin? 

You guys are in it up your your eyeballs as pilots. You are the future leaders of the AF.  There are LOTS of folks behind the scenes that let you fly your jet.SF is also a part in this. 

You have to trust that the jet you are flying will do the job and get you home safely.

But you distrust SF base security and feel the need to pack personal weapons? 

That is sad. 

[hispeed7721]

You are talking citizens..............vs..............members of the US military. 

Big difference 

Yeah, no sh!t. So shouldn't members of the military be trusted MORE than an ordinary citizen? Don't you think that members of the military can responsibly carry on base just like normal citizens (and military members) do every day off base?

Are we so scared and not trusting in our base security that we fell the need to arm ourselves? 

It's not about fear or lack of trust. I keep a fire extinguisher at home, but that doesn't mean I'm scared of fire or don't have complete trust in the fire department and their ability to do their job.

[MXQA]

OK............you beat me down.............

If Big Blue allows personal weapons and sanctions them, I guess I'll be good with that.................IF......it's highly vetted and tightly monitored. 

Have fun with the torrent of CBTs, SF training, and sign-offs you will need to carry.

I'm sure the process will be expedient. 

[raimius]

Condolences to those affected...

We don't know enough details to determine if concealed carry would have positively affected the situation.

 

I do know that I am fairly well trained in marksmanship, basic tactics, and decently well-read on use-of-force theory and law.  I can occasionally carry an issued weapon to help protect our strategic assets, but I cannot carry to protect myself and those around me.  Tell me how that makes sense?
I lost a friend to an active shooter.  The police got there within 90 seconds of getting called--well below the national standard for violent crime response.  They were able to treat the injured and secure the crime scene, as the crime was over before they got inside the building.  Cops are well and good, but they are not superman.  My personal safety is MY responsibility, even if the DoD doesn't fully trust me.

[sixpack]

I'm a proponent of allowing members carry on base, with caveats.  You should be allowed to conceal carry as long as there's a vetting process similar to the civilian sector.  Do a background check... no LOR, UIF Art 15?  Check.  No restraining orders?  Check.  Passing PT test?  I keed, i keed.... 

 

Point being we trust SF to protect us with weapons, aircrew regularly carry concealed and overt depending on the situation.  If i want to have a CWP off base and carry on base as well it shouldn't be an issue.  We're held to a higher standard than regular John Q. Public so give us rights commensurate to our standing in society.

 

Do I think this would have changed the situation that happened at Lackland today?  Who knows, but there's one more opportunity to protect yourself that you didn't have before.  When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.  

[pawnman]

I know when SF responds to an active shooter incident, I don't want to be the guy holding a gun.

[Azimuth]

9 hours ago, MXQA said:

Think about a stressed out Senior Airman, at wit's end, looking at a bad and career ending EPR coming with a family to feed,  and nowhere to go.  

This in common place.

Do you really want someone like this to be legally able to carry a weapon on base?  Really? 

It's cool to test rights..............it's another thing in the cold light of reality.

I know a guy, in today's Air Force, who just made Senior and received a Art 15 as a TSgt. If some SrA is afraid of getting a career ending EPR, and has a family to feed, stop getting in trouble. Technique only.

[lloyd christmas]

I have a concealed carry license issued by the state that I live in.  I also have a conceal carry card issued by the AF so that I can conceal carry on the aircraft and do my job.  Yet, I can't conceal carry in my truck on base.  It makes no sense.  I am not interested in carrying my pistol into the office.  I am interested in having it my truck for the ride to and from work.  Because of my unit's flying schedule, I often find myself driving to work at 4am and from work at 2 am.  I usually carry anyway.  If I get stopped at the gate, my pistol goes in my flight suit pocket.  They don't pat you down.  

[Herk Driver]

I'm still wondering which Wing Commanders allow concealed carry on base. If someone knows, can you put them in touch with the 99th ABW/CC, please?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

7 BW/CC at Dyess from what I understand.

[Herk Driver]

I know when SF responds to an active shooter incident, I don't want to be the guy holding a gun.

Then don't be.

[BADFNZ]

10 hours ago, MXQA said:

OK............you beat me down.............

If Big Blue allows personal weapons and sanctions them, I guess I'll be good with that.................IF......it's highly vetted and tightly monitored. 

Have fun with the torrent of CBTs, SF training, and sign-offs you will need to carry.

I'm sure the process will be expedient. 

There are bases that allow concealed carry RIGHT NOW with no CBTs, SF training, or "sign-offs".  Stop talking out of your ass.

And who knew that you can only neg rep 4 times in a 24 hour period.

[ViperStud]

12 hours ago, MXQA said:

 

Irresponsible.............NO

Carry off base...............fine

Carry on base.............that's the job we pay SF to do. 

You are arguing 2nd Amendment  rights vs the stark reality of base security. 

Do you really want cowboy law brought into an AF base? 

If so, sad times will be among us...................our SF folks just can't protect us. 

So much stupidity in this post. Did Skycops keep people safe at Ft Hood, Chattanooga or Lackland?  The stark reality you speak of is that SF doesn't have access to my vault, but internationals do. SF takes 6-9 mins to respond to anything and their first inclination is to cordon and isolate, not kill the shooter. My glock 42 will do a better job at saving my life than any Skycops will should something terrible happen in close proximity. 

 

Allowing operators who employ weapons regularly to carry on base is not "cowboy law" and if you think so, you're a fvcking idiot. 

[MooseAg03]

I'm still wondering which Wing Commanders allow concealed carry on base. If someone knows, can you put them in touch with the 99th ABW/CC, please?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

7 BW/CC at Dyess from what I understand.

I was told by our leadership that policy at Dyess was revoked pending legal review...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Prosuper]

13 hours ago, MXQA said:

Yes they do.

These folks are out there making it happen in a truly horrible management environment. It eats some of them up. 

My post was not meant to scare you guys away from your MX troops. These guys and gals would give their life for you if it meant a successful and safe flight.

But I would not like seeing them carrying heat on base. 

Dude, still turning wrenches as a civilian, and management sucks out on this side too. If your argument held water I imagine there would be a lot of dead MX officers now. Easiest way to get rid of one is just follow the mx manual and safety rules to the letter and we won't meet a flying schedule or revenue flight. If your icon is correct all you had to do is show up to a backshop or flight line and production stopped. I loved answering QA reports for Amn Snuffy wearing a floppy hat on the flight line with no engines running high noon in the desert and Amn Snuffy just got NJP for 3rd degree sunburn on top of his bald head by working his ass off. You might have been part of the problem. Yes I liked it better when we were under Op's instead of a bunch of spread sheet accountants. 

 

 

 

[panchbarnes]

And the plot thickens...

Washington Post Article

 

"The shooter in an apparent murder-suicide at a Texas Air Force base Friday was an enlisted airman who served a brief stint as an FBI agent before entering the service to become an elite pararescueman, U.S. officials said."

Edited April 9, 2016 by panchbarnes
Formatting

[Herk Driver]

I'm still wondering which Wing Commanders allow concealed carry on base. If someone knows, can you put them in touch with the 99th ABW/CC, please?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

7 BW/CC at Dyess from what I understand.

I was told by our leadership that policy at Dyess was revoked pending legal review...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Possibly. I am deployed with several Dyess guys who have been here less than 2 months and they know nothing about any revocation. It could be a recent development.

[Fuzz]

2 hours ago, Herk Driver said:

 

I was told by our leadership that policy at Dyess was revoked pending legal review...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

Possibly. I am deployed with several Dyess guys who have been here less than 2 months and they know nothing about any revocation. It could be a recent development.

Change of leadership probably, Col Starr wasn't your run of the mill AF commander.

[M2]

3 hours ago, ViperStud said:

So much stupidity in this post. Did Skycops keep people safe at Ft Hood, Chattanooga or Lackland?  The stark reality you speak of is that SF doesn't have access to my vault, but internationals do. SF takes 6-9 mins to respond to anything and their first inclination is to cordon and isolate, not kill the shooter. My glock 42 will do a better job at saving my life than any Skycops will should something terrible happen in close proximity. 

Allowing operators who employ weapons regularly to carry on base is not "cowboy law" and if you think so, you're a fvcking idiot. 

Exactly, and you are being very generous as to the 6-9 minute response time.  Given that half of the law enforcement agencies in Bexar county showed up for this, I am seriously doubting that a structured response will occur within less than 30 minutes. 

Truth be told, we are extremely lucky that this individual didn't go on a shooting spree before ending his own life.  Had he not killed himself after shooting his squadron/cc, he could have easily killed another 20-30 people before chances are he would have been stopped.

And even more truth here, in 2005 the Supreme Court has ruled that the police did not, repeat NOT have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm (Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748). 

I work with law enforcement at the local and Federal levels, and while I have great respect for them I also realize I need to be responsible for my own survival.  Plus, the police come in varying degrees of competence, I probably shoot better than 50-75% of the officers I know and I sure as hell do it a lot more often. 

As for "being armed when the cops show up," it's no different for those who carry off base.  Would that be a concern?  Sure.  Would that be a factor in keeping me from carrying?  No damn way! 

US Code 18 Sec 930 only prohibits the carrying of personally-owned firearms in Federal facilities, which are buildings.  The Army has regulations against weapons on base, but the USAF does not, it's up to the base commander to make that decision.  Dyess did lead the way in allowing licensed individuals who work on base to bring and keep firearms in their vehicles while at work.  It was a step in the right direction, although that wouldn't have helped a bit in yesterday's situation; but if what happened at Medina showed us anything it is that: 1) policies prohibiting firearms on base will do absolutely nothing to stop someone with the intent to shoot somebody and 2) if you really place 100% of your own well-being in the security police or civilian on-base cops to protect you, there's a good chance you might one day die regretting that decision!

Plus, I have gone through more governmental background checks at the city, state and Federal level than 99% of the people out there (to include sky cops), so if anyone I should be trusted to safely carry a weapon on base (as I am allowed off), it's yours truly!

All that said, my condolences to the squadron commander who lost his life yesterday.  As a former commander I always knew there was a risk of this when dealing with certain disciplinary actions, and honestly I am almost surprised it hasn't happened more often.  I am grateful it hasn't, and hopefully this won't become a trend but the chance is always there.  I am sure none of us want to be the next victim.

By the way, I had to deal with a dismissal through my company of an employee who, excuse the expression, "went completely off the reservation."  I was seriously concerned fro my task lead who had to conduct the dismissal, so I offered to be there as no other company representatives were going to be present.  You can bet your ass I came armed, and positioned myself where I could intervene if the individual tried anything. Fortunately, nothing transpired; but I wanted to make I sure I was prepared in case it did...

[M2]

By the way, a little insight as to how the building I work in handled the incident yesterday...

First, we got an annoying pop-up on NIPRNET as to the fact there was something going on.  Problem is, these broadcast messages don't show up at the same time; so some folks got them several minutes after others.

Then there was about 15-25 minutes of questioning over whether this was yet another active shooter exercise or the real thing.  First thing I did was lock the door to our office, then did the same for the other office of ours across the hall.  After that, I went to try to find someone "in charge" to see if I could get any more info.  They were still debating the real world vs. exercise thing, so I suggested it really didn't matter and to implement the procedures such as locking the doors.  I ended up locking about 15 doors in our organization, all offices full of people who had gotten the notification but still (I suppose) thought it was an exercise.  When I got back to my office, someone had learned it was an actual active shooter so I once again went down the hall to let those "in charge" know.  After that, it was two hours of sitting in the office watching the news (I did sneak out to hit the can, it was a necessary risk.  Too much coffee in the morning!).

So, given that experience and the fact that I had absolutely no means by which to defend myself had there been a shooter in our building, I am not a fan of the current "cover my ass" policy by base commanders who are more worried about their careers than my safety.  I don't depend on civilian police to protect me and I shouldn't have to depend on the sky cops to protect me at work, especially after 35 years of working in the DoD.  Yesterday's event just proves that "force protection" measures are badly misplaced and need a common sense revision; but we all know the old axiom concerning common sense (that it isn't that common)...

[M2]

One more, just got this SOFREP release in my FB feed.  You don't need to read the entire article, just the bottom line...

One of the many things to take away from the report is that ordinary citizens will almost always be among the first called on to end an active shooter scenario. With many events taking place in a matter of seconds or minutes, it is virtually impossible to rely on law enforcement to always be available when needed. Citizens should make themselves aware of just what to do in those types of situations in order to increase their chances of surviving, and also of ending the threat.

https://sofrep.com/46735/fbi-releases-data-that-affected-air-force-personal-carry-decision/

[M2]

Commander "went out swinging"...

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Commander-went-out-swinging-in-Lackland-7238799.php

Air Force: Pararescue student shot training squadron commander at Lackland

https://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2016/04/09/air-force-pararescue-student-shot-training-squadron-commander-lackland/82840202/

[waveshaper]

What are the chances? This isn't the first time the 342nd leadership has been attacked by a crazy/rogue airman. The last time it was a package bomb (IED) that detonated in the First Sergeants office just down the hall from the Commanders office. 

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Mail+from+hell%3A+a+package+bomb+cost+Janet+McWilliams+her+hands.+But...-a0115635011

Excerpt; Sergeant McWilliams described the explosion as surreal, as if it happened in slow motion.

"I saw my left hand fly off; I saw the fingers from my right hand fly off," she said, recalling the terrifying scene in detail. "I fell hard to the floor and immediately felt sick."

Her hands weren't the only things injured. The explosion filleted her torso. Her lungs suffered damage as she inhaled flash burns. A piece of shrapnel bounced like a pinball inside her right eye. The blast blew both of her eardrums out. And powder burns covered her body.

As a matter of fact, her body still smoldered when Chief Master Sgt. John Wharton, who had the office next to hers, ran into her office and found her lying there, clinging to life.

Chief Wharton picked her up and carried her out. The entire building had to be evacuated, as no one was sure if there were other bombs present.

"By all rights, I should be dead," she said.

That's where, perhaps, her luck changed. For her new training squadron also was home to pararescue trainees and instructors--PJs--who are experts in sustaining the lives of war wounded. They began providing first aid.
 

[M2]

I remember that.  It was actually left in the bathroom, but someone brought it to her office...

[Azimuth]

From Chief Nugent, TACP Schoolhouse Commandant

 

Quote

Brothers, it is with a heavy heart that I share the news on the loss of a great leader, officer, SOWT and friend. 

Lt Col William "Bill" Schroeder, Commander 342 TRS, was killed yesterday by a disgruntled student who was being administered NJP. Know that Bill went out swinging. He selflessly gave his life to protect our 1Sgt and countless others who were in the building. Bill was our squadron commander and our TACP Schoolhouse benefited greatly from his leadership and service. My wife has been with his family since the notification. Family, friends and neighbors have stepped up greatly to show support. Please keep Bill's family in your thoughts and prayers in this time of need as he left behind a wonderful loving wife and two amazing boys. Stay safe, hug your loved ones and take care of each other. Thank you and God bless.

Here's a memorial fund established by the TACP Association for Lt Col Schroeder's family.

https://fundly.com/lt-col-bill-schroeder-memorial-fund

Edited April 10, 2016 by Azimuth