Combat Time

[Guest jkfaust]

I was just wondering about what percentage of combat pilots see combat through the course of their career. It seems like we have such a large military that many never do, is this true?

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Better yet, how many folks (myself included) get Combat time doing "very" little in a Combat zone...and no, I do not consider myself a Comabt Pilot...far from it.

I've got a whopping 54.6 hours total, 32.8 as a pilot (the other as a C-17 Loadmaster).

My pilot time has 9.6 combat time in Iraq, the bulk of the rest (20.3) is all Balkan AOR stuff that rarely gets much attention nowadays.

Now, if you wanna go find some really good info, go search how much combat time (of his 4280+ hours) ol' "Doc" Folgesong has in ol' 777, or a variant thereof.

Last I've heard, he's logged only ~2.5 total, from the back of a NATO plane...but I could be wrong.

Notice how he has no AIR MEDAL'S!!!

Man I sound bitter....

[ClearedHot]

Before 9/11 I think it was pretty tough to get combat time. Those guys that flew in Gulf War 1 way back when had some time, and others had some light time with smaller operations over the years...but now, with OEF and OIF, you can pretty much COUNT on having multiple combat deployments, and racking up the "combat hours." Like the other poster said, these guys aren't necessarily doing heavy stuff on all these combat flights.

You’re kidding right? Light time?

ONW and OSW were far from a cake walk. Nearly every mission in the container had some sort of surface to air event.

You also forgot Bosnia and Kosovo. I remember some nasty moments over the Balkans that were far from “light”.

[M2]

Man I sound bitter....

Or you are being totally honest. Old Doc makes such noise about all his "Combat Programs," but the man has no combat time. None, zilch. If he has somehow clocked 2.5 hrs than it is recent, as we checked this out a while back and he had none. However, check out his awards (from his bio):

MAJOR AWARDS AND DECORATIONS

Defense Distinguished Service Medal

Distinguished Service Medal

Defense Superior Service Medal

Legion of Merit with oak leaf cluster

Meritorious Service Medal with three oak leaf clusters

Aerial Achievement Medal with two oak leaf clusters

Air Force Commendation Medal with two oak leaf clusters

Air Force Achievement Medal

Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal

Korean National Security Medal (Samil)

Korean National Security Medal (Cheon-Su)

Medalla De Oro por Servicio Distinguido, El Salvador (Gold Medal for Distinguished Service)

Mérito Aeronáutico, Uruguay (Aeronautical Merit)

Mérito Aeronáutico, Bolivia

Cruz de la Fuerza Aérea, Colombia (Air Force Cross, Great Cross category)

Cruz de las Fuerzas Armadas, Honduras (Armed Forces Cross)

Cruz de la Fuerza Aérea, Guatemala

Cruz Peruana al Mérito Aeronáutico, clase Gran Cruz, Perú (Peruvian Cross of Aeronautical Merit, Great Cross category)

La Medalla Legion al Mérito Confraternidad Aérea Interamericana (Legion of Merit, System of Cooperation Among the American Air Forces, SICOFAA)

And I get shit about my Czechoslovak Special Forces jump wings!

Plus, "Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal"??? That medal came out on 1 Jan 93, Doc was a colonel at the time, so he had to be an O-6 or higher when he got it. I have never seen a full bird get this medal, it is usually for junior NCOs or CGOs. What a joke!

Cheers! M2

[Hacker]

Originally posted by Clearedhot:

You’re kidding right? Light time? ONW and OSW were far from a cake walk. Nearly every mission in the container had some sort of surface to air event.

Well, I did ONW and OSW, and I thought they were a joke compared to OIF in March/April '03, where there *was* significant SAM and AAA fire. From what I hear, current OIF sorties (for fighter guys, at least) are just like ONW/OSW...or, better yet, Noble Eagle with bombs.

[M2]

Sorry, I just realized that Doc authored "Successful Elections in Afghanistan: Give Some Credit to Those Who Circled Overhead," (Armed Forces Journal, January 2005). Someone want to tell me what the hell airpower had to do with the Afghan elections??

The joke keeps getting bigger and bigger...

Cheers! M2

[Toro]

Originally posted by C-21 Pilot:

Better yet, how many folks (myself included) get Combat time doing "very" little in a Combat zone

Concur. I've got around 80 combat hours and have been to ONW and OIF, but I've never been shot at and I've never dropped or shot a weapon in the AOR. It feels a little funny to count my time as 'combat' when all I did was fly CAP, wait for taskings, hit the tanker, then go home.

Originally posted by 123abc:

Can you say O I F, or O E F, or O N W, or O S W?....Less so with the F-15C, B-2, B-117 as they are more specialized and less valuable for current operations.

F-15Cs flew plenty in ONW and OSW. At the time, they rotated the OCA/DCA role with Vipers and Strike Eagles.

Before 9/11 I think it was pretty tough to get combat time.

????

In essence, 9-11 turned ONW and OSW into OIF. There were more pilots deployed at a time for ONW and OSW than OIF. While they may not have all been exciting missions, they were all combat sorties once you crossed into the AOR.

jkfaust,

To answer your original question, until we stop flying OIF and OEF, we're going to have plenty of combat sorties to go around.

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by 123abc:

Hey ClearedHot, didn't mean to disrespect man! I should bite my tongue when I'm talking about combat events that I didn't take part in.

No disrespect at all and please speak freely, just wanted to get the facts out.

I am not saying that every ONW/OSW mission was like going downtown in Nam. However, there were a lot of very close calls over the years. ONW and OSW went through cycles where nothing would happen for a few months then every other sortie had AAA or a missile event.

Bosnia was very ugly back in the day, lots of MANPADS for the Hawgs and Gunships.

Kosovo had some ugly moments as well (scratch an F-16 and an F-117). In some ways Kosovo was more of a fight than OIF, at least the F-15C’s got some action in that one.

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by Toro:

I've got around 80 combat hours and have been to ONW and OIF, but I've never been shot at and I've never dropped or shot a weapon in the AOR. It feels a little funny to count my time as 'combat' when all I did was fly CAP, wait for taskings, hit the tanker, then go home.

Toro,

You still stepped up and put your cajones on the line. Any one of those caps could have turned ugly in an instant. Give yourself a little more credit. Besides, getting shot at isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.

[Guest HueyPilot]

We (the C-21 OIF pilots) were the butt of many jokes at the bar, but I have no problem claiming my ~10 hours of "combat" time. We were flying into airfields with known threats to aircraft, with no defensive systems to speak of. Hell, we even had a nice high-gloss paint scheme to help Raji find us!

[M2]

Show of force missions. Aircraft can have huge impact even if they dont drop bombs or shoot. Yeah it's not as cool or Hollywood, but it helps to keep bad guys away.

I talk with the guys at CJTF-76 and the CJSOTF all the time, and trust me, they want a/c to be dropping bombs and shooting at the enemy! Those "show of force" missions aren't scaring the Taliban/HIG/AQ/insurgent hillbillies anymore...

Nice try, but Doc was nowhere near Afghanistan during the presidential elections and probably doesn't have a ****ing clue as to what he is talking about! However, I will reserve that commetn until after I have read the article (does anyone happen to have a copy?).

I am a big advocate of airpower, I have to be working for the Army; but I also don't like taking credit when it really isn't due. We have a lot more things to be bragging about, this isn't one of them.

[HerkDerka]

To answer the original question:

Herk pilots log tons of combat time and get shot at plenty. I've logged over 250 hours so far and counting.

HD

[ 12. March 2005, 14:45: Message edited by: HercDriver24 ]

[Guest Rainman A-10]

There is "combat time" and there is COMBAT time. This is a subject that is often hotly debated, sometimes coming to blows (or nearly so). I applaud the guys who admit that their combat experiences were not anything like what they thought real combat would be like. What matters is that you were willing to do whatever it took to get the job done.

The "droning" combat is sometimes harder mentally than the high pace high tempo combat. It is easy to become complacent and complacency kills. You have to be ready for your life to go from zero to 100 mph in one "Holy Sh#t, we need help!" radio call and you have to get it right the first time (standard OEF drill). People talk about doing "Troops in Contact" close air support. No sh#t TIC is nothing like what most people talk about and it is nothing like JCAS. It is "YOU'RE CLEARED HOT!" before the JTAC even gives you the target, their position or watches you roll in. Often time the best they can do is give you gunbarrel orientation and ask to minimize frag in their direction. Real TIC is kill the bad guys in the next 2-3 minutes or there won't be any friendlies left. Most people aren't ready for that when they check in.

You will hear lots of stories about "combat" and "comabt time". Some people won't shut up about how much they've been shot at. I want to puke when I hear it. It is embarrassing to be wearing the same uniform. Getting shot at in an airplane is nothing compared to getting shot at on the ground. Most guys talk like every bullet they've ever seen was coming up right at their cockpit. You know when YOU are getting shot AT, everything else is just crap flying though the air and not a threat. Very, very few guys have ever had to out maneuver a SAM. They will tell you they had SAMs shot at them but 90% of the time it was either just fired into the air at aircraft noise or it was shot well out of range. Again, you know when the missile is guiding on you and everything else is just a high speed pipe that will miss your jet by a long way.

I have watched guys totally freak out about all the surface to air fire when it was really only surface to surface fire and they couldn't tell the difference. I've listened to guys refuse to go below the weather, hang out below 5K or even 10K or run away as soon as they saw any AAA.

I have listened to guys cry about "thousands of rounds of AAA being shot at them" when I was working the exact same target area. Not the sam kill box, the EXACT SAM TARGET ARRAY. They were full of sh#t. If you know the threats you can take advantage of their limitations. For example, the base altitude for a Night 30 Dive Bomb is right between the standard 37MM and 57MM fuze altitude. You can fly there all night and not worry about a thing as long as you keep the jet moving. The enemy is going to shoot, that's their job.

I sometimes wonder what guys thought was going to happen when they went into combat. Did they think they could stay above 15K and get the job done? Did they think the weather was going to be good every night? Did they think the enemy was never going to shoot back? Do they think talking about "getting shot at" makes them a better pilot?

There is nothing better than when the enemy shoots. It gives their position away and removes any doubt about whether or not it is a valid target or a decoy.

Being willing to fly across the fence where bullets are going to be flying through the air is enough to be proud of. Good on anyone willing to do that. Shame on anyone who makes a big deal about it when it is their job to be there.

Just my 2 cents, which is about all it is worth.

[scoobs]

How often do F-15C's deploy?I know that there isn't much air to air going on.

[HerkDerka]

Originally posted by Rainman A-10:

There is nothing better than when the enemy shoots. It gives their position away and removes any doubt about whether or not it is a valid target or a decoy.

That's a tad easier to say when you're in a plane that's fast (comparatively), manueverable, and can shoot back! :D

HD

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by HercDriver24:

That's a tad easier to say when you're in a plane that's fast (comparatively), manueverable, and can shoot back! :D

Well one out of three ain't bad...

[Guest F16PilotMD]

Clearedhot, you might get double credit for what you can shoot back.

[ 12. March 2005, 20:32: Message edited by: F16PilotMD ]

[Toro]

Originally posted by scoobs:

How often do F-15C's deploy?I know that there isn't much air to air going on.

They're in a regular AEF cycle like everybody else - many of the locations are classified.

[Guest Chromedome11]

"They're on an AEF cycle like everybody else"

Unless you're a Herk guy a.k.a. AEF enabler, then you're on every AEF cycle with everybody else...

[Spartacus]

Quick question...

Can yon only log combat time if you're in a "combat" aircraft? Or do you log it as combat in whatever aircraft you're in as long as you are flying over a "combat" area?

[HerkDerka]

You log combat time (O1 time) if you fly into the combat area defined by the CFACC. Regardless of aircraft.

HD

[FourFans]

Originally posted by Chromedome11

"They're on an AEF cycle like everybody else"

Unless you're a Herk guy a.k.a. AEF enabler, then you're on every AEF cycle with everybody else...

So this may sound like a stupid question, but which airframes actually ARE on the AEF cycle?

It sounds like there are a good number of "low density, high demand" airframes that live outside the cycle.

[Guest Rainman A-10]

There is combat time and there is combat tax exclusion time.

Wretched.

[zrooster99]

Another stupid question...does anybody know, among AF fighters, which MDSs are shooting these days (in Iraq), if any?

[ClearedHot]

Well the Vipers are...

Aw Dude