Escaping RPAs

[viper154]

I'll get you a hurt feelings report. 

[hispeed7721]

Uh...ok.

Definitely address my euphemism and not the issue. You really have learned from Big Blue. Leadership 101, right?

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[sqwatch]

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[Vprdrvr69]

13 hours ago, ILoveScotch said:

You guessed wrong. I'm nobody particularly special. A late bloomer, actually. Someone who regrets the bad attitude he picked up from the cool kids crowd early in his career. Live and learn.

I know, it's shocking to think that one of your own isn't a jaded O-4 who rags on and on about how horrible life is (I mean, the man IS holding us all down with these CBTs, amiright?) while doing better financially than 89% of the rest of the country. This was supposed to be a flying club, wasn't it? That's what the brochure said, IT'S NOT FAIR!!! 

Don't forget to collect your awesome bro-points on your way out...

Sometimes bad attitudes are justified. Many in the UAV world have ample reasons to be furious. You measure success based on your income level as it relates to the rest of the country, which immediately tells me that you either serve for the wrong reasons or ended up in the USAF by accident. 

The "flying club" that we all miss so much is the one that truly focuses on tirelessly executing the mission while flying actual airplanes...you know, killing the bad guy and breaking his shit! There is no brochure and I agree that it is a tragedy we can no longer accomplish this as advertised. Sorry if the cool guys never let you come play.

Most of the Flyers that I served with are some of the brightest and most capable individuals that I have ever met (I think you would be excluded though). They will have no issue making more than they do on active duty once they reach the "outside." They will also find happier lives so that they no longer upset you with chronic sport bitching.

You miss the point. It's not about money, flying clubs, or bro-points. Dudes are pissed because they've been screwed in the ass (there's your homo slur) and can't help but to vent. Volunteer for your UAV and enjoy...you might like the ass screw by the way it sounds.

[ILoveScotch]

4 hours ago, Vprdrvr69 said:

Dudes are pissed because they've been screwed in the ass (there's your homo slur) and can't help but to vent. Volunteer for your UAV and enjoy...you might like the ass screw by the way it sounds.

You're projecting again. What is it with you F-16... excuse me, ahem... "Viper" pilots?

[SurelySerious]

You're projecting again. What is it with you F-16... excuse me, ahem... "Viper" pilots?

Stop being a bitch.

[17D_guy]

You know, I love Cyber.  I've been doing it for close to 20 years.  I crossed from E-to-O into it.  I set life goals based on the AF telling me that's what I'd do.  I read about it at home, much to the annoyance of my wife (who doesn't want to learn about the new Win10 hack?).  All the pilots I've met that actually love to fly do the same thing - study it in their off time, talk about it... sometimes even dream about it.

If I'd graduated from my commissioning source and tech school to be told I'm now going to be a MFP/Services officer I'd want to burn it all down.  Hell, if they told me I'd fly a Viper I'd still be angry - it's not who I am.  That's not being jaded, that's being human.  Doubly so if I went to any of the shit-holes the RPA bros are at.

This doesn't even begin to touch the outright lies and blunders the whole RPA community has had directed at it from on high.  It's almost the same as the missile fields, without the long heritage of shit or "investigations & programs" to fix it.  Basically, "You're so important to the USAF and Nation.  But not important enough for us to put money, men or brain power to fix it."

It's an affront to justice we're taught as Americans and the trust we placed in the institution of the Air Force to go through what some of the RPA dudes have gone through.  That doesn't end because you make O4/5/6.  It doesn't end because you get to a cushy staff job off the line.  It doesn't end because you get more money, or a ribbon with some metal on the end of it.

Your lack of compassion, empathy and understanding are very telling.  Broadly, you're just another troll, well done.  Specifically, you're myopic view on status and money are indicative you're lining right up with that part of the AF machine for box-checking promotion - more concerned about yourself and what you can get, less concerned with the people executing your mission.

[ShavedDogsAss]

You know, I love Cyber.  I've been doing it for close to 20 years.  I crossed from E-to-O into it.  I set life goals based on the AF telling me that's what I'd do.  I read about it at home, much to the annoyance of my wife (who doesn't want to learn about the new Win10 hack?).  All the pilots I've met that actually love to fly do the same thing - study it in their off time, talk about it... sometimes even dream about it.

If I'd graduated from my commissioning source and tech school to be told I'm now going to be a MFP/Services officer I'd want to burn it all down.  Hell, if they told me I'd fly a Viper I'd still be angry - it's not who I am.  That's not being jaded, that's being human.  Doubly so if I went to any of the shit-holes the RPA bros are at.

This doesn't even begin to touch the outright lies and blunders the whole RPA community has had directed at it from on high.  It's almost the same as the missile fields, without the long heritage of shit or "investigations & programs" to fix it.  Basically, "You're so important to the USAF and Nation.  But not important enough for us to put money, men or brain power to fix it."

It's an affront to justice we're taught as Americans and the trust we placed in the institution of the Air Force to go through what some of the RPA dudes have gone through.  That doesn't end because you make O4/5/6.  It doesn't end because you get to a cushy staff job off the line.  It doesn't end because you get more money, or a ribbon with some metal on the end of it.

Your lack of compassion, empathy and understanding are very telling.  Broadly, you're just another troll, well done.  Specifically, you're myopic view on status and money are indicative you're lining right up with that part of the AF machine for box-checking promotion - more concerned about yourself and what you can get, less concerned with the people executing your mission.

Shack.

[pintail21]

For you new co's/lt's out there this is a great learning opportunity about when to bite your tongue, take good feedback from far more experienced dudes and seizing the opportunity to stfu before you dig yourself a deeper hole.

I would love to see  our buddy Scotch here handles a debrief. I sincerely feel bad for those poor souls in rpa's if this is the "help" they're going to get. Forget leadership 101, how about social skills 101? Not everybody has the same goals and desires that you do, you won't ever change them, so figure out a way to talk to them like a person and just maybe they'll be willing to work with you and help you out.

[ILoveScotch]

55 minutes ago, pintail21 said:

For you new co's/lt's out there this is a great learning opportunity about when to bite your tongue, take good feedback from far more experienced dudes and seizing the opportunity to stfu before you dig yourself a deeper hole.

I would love to see  our buddy Scotch here handles a debrief. I sincerely feel bad for those poor souls in rpa's if this is the "help" they're going to get. Forget leadership 101, how about social skills 101? Not everybody has the same goals and desires that you do, you won't ever change them, so figure out a way to talk to them like a person and just maybe they'll be willing to work with you and help you out.

Great learning opportunity indeed. To the new co's/lt's or anyone who's considering a career in the Air Force: take a look around on this forum. By and large, you'll find examples of attitudes which, if you make the mistake of emulating, will not bode well for your career. Oh sure, you'll make friends, and you'll probably be popular in your social cliques at work. But the truth of the matter is that being cool and having all that swagger -- really, rebelling against your employer, more or less -- is not what being an officer is all about. Yes, you can be a pilot and a good officer at the same time. You can even be a really good pilot while being a really good officer. At some point you will be expected to be a company man, particularly if you ever want to experience command (of people, not just a jet).

The Air Force doesn't require you to be popular. Follow the core values, and set the example for your peers and those below you. "Service before self"... really think about what that means. Does it mean you get to focus totally on flying, and leave all that other officer stuff to lesser people? No, it doesn't, particularly in the fiscal environment our nation finds itself in. Before you complain and moan about how you're getting screwed, take a moment and dig deep... is this even supposed to be about you the individual? What does "serving your country" even mean, if it must be on your preconceived terms?

A lot of these guys are poor examples to follow. Don't just blindly follow the advice of the popular guy. Think for yourself, consistently do the right thing, and be a good leader. Do these things and you should do great.

And now for some more snark from the peanut gallery...

[Jaded]

Lol. I like this guy. He's funny. Fighter pilots trying to be popular? Air Force founded upon company men? Core value speech aimed at people worried fundamentally about the future viability of our force in general? 

More posts please! 

[17D_guy]

1 hour ago, ILoveScotch said:

Great learning opportunity indeed. To the new co's/lt's or anyone who's considering a career in the Air Force: take a look around on this forum. By and large, you'll find examples of attitudes which, if you make the mistake of emulating, will not bode well for your career. Oh sure, you'll make friends, and you'll probably be popular in your social cliques at work. But the truth of the matter is that being cool and having all that swagger -- really, rebelling against your employer, more or less -- is not what being an officer is all about. Yes, you can be a pilot and a good officer at the same time. You can even be a really good pilot while being a really good officer. At some point you will be expected to be a company man, particularly if you ever want to experience command (of people, not just a jet).

The Air Force doesn't require you to be popular. Follow the core values, and set the example for your peers and those below you. "Service before self"... really think about what that means. Does it mean you get to focus totally on flying, and leave all that other officer stuff to lesser people? No, it doesn't, particularly in the fiscal environment our nation finds itself in. Before you complain and moan about how you're getting screwed, take a moment and dig deep... is this even supposed to be about you the individual? What does "serving your country" even mean, if it must be on your preconceived terms?

A lot of these guys are poor examples to follow. Don't just blindly follow the advice of the popular guy. Think for yourself, consistently do the right thing, and be a good leader. Do these things and you should do great.

And now for some more snark from the peanut gallery...

[viper154]

2 hours ago, ILoveScotch said:

Great learning opportunity indeed. To the new co's/lt's or anyone who's considering a career in the Air Force: take a look around on this forum. By and large, you'll find examples of attitudes which, if you make the mistake of emulating, will not bode well for your career. Oh sure, you'll make friends, and you'll probably be popular in your social cliques at work. But the truth of the matter is that being cool and having all that swagger -- really, rebelling against your employer, more or less -- is not what being an officer is all about. Yes, you can be a pilot and a good officer at the same time. You can even be a really good pilot while being a really good officer. At some point you will be expected to be a company man, particularly if you ever want to experience command (of people, not just a jet).

The Air Force doesn't require you to be popular. Follow the core values, and set the example for your peers and those below you. "Service before self"... really think about what that means. Does it mean you get to focus totally on flying, and leave all that other officer stuff to lesser people? No, it doesn't, particularly in the fiscal environment our nation finds itself in. Before you complain and moan about how you're getting screwed, take a moment and dig deep... is this even supposed to be about you the individual? What does "serving your country" even mean, if it must be on your preconceived terms?

A lot of these guys are poor examples to follow. Don't just blindly follow the advice of the popular guy. Think for yourself, consistently do the right thing, and be a good leader. Do these things and you should do great.

And now for some more snark from the peanut gallery...

Bro, do you even pilot? But for real, I'm fairly sure you are General Chang. Do currently have any rated hours of any kind in a AF jet? If you do, please amuse us with your resume. If not, go back to your desk, and come back to the forum after you have spent time in your  air frame. 

This is a place for professional military aviators (and those interested in the job) to come and converse/interact about the job. If you think this is place we come to argue with newbs about leadership/core values and our attitudes outside the work environment you are mistaken.

If your looking to start trouble or argue, or not heed the advice of the guys on here that have been there, done that, and have the shirt take your ROTC classroom bs talking points over to the YouTube comments section on the AF recruiting videos. 

Edited June 4, 2016 by viper154

[SurelySerious]

Great learning opportunity indeed. To the new co's/lt's or anyone who's considering a career in the Air Force: take a look around on this forum. By and large, you'll find examples of attitudes which, if you make the mistake of emulating, will not bode well for your career. Oh sure, you'll make friends, and you'll probably be popular in your social cliques at work. But the truth of the matter is that being cool and having all that swagger -- really, rebelling against your employer, more or less -- is not what being an officer is all about. Yes, you can be a pilot and a good officer at the same time. You can even be a really good pilot while being a really good officer. At some point you will be expected to be a company man, particularly if you ever want to experience command (of people, not just a jet).

The Air Force doesn't require you to be popular. Follow the core values, and set the example for your peers and those below you. "Service before self"... really think about what that means. Does it mean you get to focus totally on flying, and leave all that other officer stuff to lesser people? No, it doesn't, particularly in the fiscal environment our nation finds itself in. Before you complain and moan about how you're getting screwed, take a moment and dig deep... is this even supposed to be about you the individual? What does "serving your country" even mean, if it must be on your preconceived terms?

A lot of these guys are poor examples to follow. Don't just blindly follow the advice of the popular guy. Think for yourself, consistently do the right thing, and be a good leader. Do these things and you should do great.

And now for some more snark from the peanut gallery...

Just shut the up already. You have no idea what you're talking about. At all.

[pintail21]

I wonder how great this Air Force could be if some of those "company men" were replaced by the "cool, popular crowd" who are widely regarded as the best pilots and leaders in the squadron, and not the people who turn down deployments and flights to check the boxes to get a school slot? The sooner you realize the core values aren't about indentured servitude and you start treating people like you actually care about their well being, then the sooner the RPA manning disaster will be fixed. Or you can walk around an Ops squadron handing out 341's for shitty attitude and keep marveling at how anyone could possibly want to leave as you give them their stop loss paperwork.

[hispeed7721]

Yes, you can be a pilot and a good officer at the same time. You can even be a really good pilot while being a really good officer.

This is a very true statement, but don't have any delusions - you're not one of them.

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[HossHarris]

6 hours ago, ILoveScotch said:

At some point you will be expected to be a company man, particularly if you ever want to experience command (of people, not just a jet)

False

 

That's ONE way to do it. But those commanders almost universally suck ass 

[brickhistory]

For all you "co's/lt's" out there, the only one you have to impress is the face staring back at you in the mirror when you shave whatever it is you shave (gender neutral).  The only opinions that matter is yours, those "bro's," and, should you lead people one day, theirs. 

As much as I loath Chang/Scotch's Blue assimilation and attempts to gather more into the collective, I have to agree with him on at least one point.  Being an officer (or NCO or airman) is not a popularity contest.  Sometimes you have to tell the boss he/she is wrong, tell them why, and how to keep their cranium out of their rectum.  I'm betting 6 of 9 has never done that.  Rather, he's gone the full Sgt Shultz...and thinks he's a better man for it.

Big Blue doesn't give a sh1t about you as an individual, only that you help make a dot green on some slide somewhere.

Given actual combat events that can either kill people or get you killed, I'm ok with that realization.

For anything else, not so much.  If The Man wants to have you around when the Big Dance starts, he damn sure better be wining and dining you in the other times.

 

When I see a Chang/Scotch post, I'm sorry, I get this mental image every single time:

 

 

 

Or to go all literary n' stuff, I am reminded of Courtney Massengale (the character, not the feminine product.  Although, now that I think about it...)

[Clark Griswold]

7 hours ago, ILoveScotch said:

And now for some more snark from the peanut gallery...

Ok..

I'm not sure if you are full of shit, if you're just trying to poke the collective bear or you have yet to have that awakening moment when you realize that the AF is mostly made of good people that get treated badly in many cases by a few people who use rules, laws, policies, procedures and a self promotion system to keep themselves and like minded a-holes in leadership.

You're right about living the Core Values and putting officership before being a pilot and a bro but you are implying that it is always exclusionary to those things, it's not usually and more often than not the Core Values and true officership are in opposition to the latest and greatest shoe clerkism that comes from on high if you believe that the purpose of the AF is to advance and defend the interests of the United States thru the projection of Air, Space and Cyberspace power.

If you can't see or actually don't believe we are less a military organization than we used to be and are drifting towards becoming just another government agency by the evidence of the dearth of actual military activities in the daily duties / training of large numbers of members of the AF then you are lost.

[General Chang]

On May 25, 2016 at 1:54 PM, ILoveScotch said:

No, I agree that it's hard to smile when eating a shit sandwich, if that's truly what it is. I can't deny the terrible locations. From what I've heard, long hours as well. There are clearly valid downsides to RPAs. But is it not true that there's at least a few upsides? There's got to be some mission satisfaction...

It's been my experience that sarcasm is rarely if ever productive. It attracts the ire of leadership because it solves nothing, and yet is so toxic to morale and unit cohesion. It's the self licking ice cream cone where Bros start trying to one up each other to see who can make the more outlandish sarcastic comments. That's the black mold to avoid at all costs, in my opinion.

There's ways to provide constructive criticism. I understand those ways haven't paid dividends yet. The answer isn't sarcasm. Let's figure out how we can make it suck less. Who knows, there COULD be more like me who never considered RPAs because we were always told through the bro network that it was the worst thing on the planet, to be avoided at all costs. I've talked to seasoned RPA guys. No, it's not all gum drops and rainbows. But there are some plusses to the job. You guys are kicking more ass than 99% of the rest of us, and you get to stay home. True, you do lose your bragging rights, and if that's important to you then join the rest of us who don't fly A-10s.

Absolutely spot-on.  I have heard from many RPA pilots that the job is intrinsically rewarding work.  It is also appealing because of fewer deployments (and the spreadsheets back this up).  I believe some people on this forum are simply out to hurt our future Air Force with their negativity, and it makes me sick to my stomach.  And ashamed.  And a touch angry.

[TnkrToad]

13 minutes ago, General Chang said:

Absolutely spot-on.  I have heard from many RPA pilots that the job is intrinsically rewarding work.  It is also appealing because of fewer deployments (and the spreadsheets back this up).  I believe some people on this forum are simply out to hurt our future Air Force with their negativity, and it makes me sick to my stomach.  And ashamed.  And a touch angry.

And a touch tone-deaf...

[SurelySerious]

Absolutely spot-on.  I have heard from many RPA pilots that the job is intrinsically rewarding work.  It is also appealing because of fewer deployments (and the spreadsheets back this up).  I believe some people on this forum are simply out to hurt our future Air Force with their negativity, and it makes me sick to my stomach.  And ashamed.  And a touch angry.

Standard discredit the opposing narrative based on a false goal. Legal blubbery that means they have no good line of action, but to throw meager appeals to be picked up by those who haven't formed an opinion yet, and reel them in to self-pity and conspiracy theories and victimization.

[hispeed7721]

 It is also appealing because of fewer deployments (and the spreadsheets back this up).

The spreadsheets back it up...well I guess the problems solved guys! The spreadsheet are good!

And did you really like your own post? Was that supposed to give it more credibility? Or did you forget to switch back to your ILS profile and like it as the other guy?

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[pawnman]

25 minutes ago, General Chang said:

Absolutely spot-on.  I have heard from many RPA pilots that the job is intrinsically rewarding work.  It is also appealing because of fewer deployments (and the spreadsheets back this up).  I believe some people on this forum are simply out to hurt our future Air Force with their negativity, and it makes me sick to my stomach.  And ashamed.  And a touch angry.

Can't be that appealing if you need to offer $100,000 bonuses to get people to stay in them.

[brickhistory]

36 minutes ago, General Chang said:

 I believe some people on this forum are simply out to hurt our future Air Force with their negativity, and it makes me sick to my stomach.  And ashamed.  And a touch angry.

Irony?  It's like bronzey, only different...