General pilot lifestyle questions

[Beaver]

What is your perception of the fighter lifestyle versus the heavy lifestyle? I.e. time spent TDY, length of the workday, attitude of guys in the squadron, etc.

I ask because I know there are a lack of fighter guys in tweets and texans, and maybe there are some misconceptions about fighters out there.

[Scooter14]

Beav,

From what I've seen in my class, we kind of had the standard perceptions and views. Out of the 21 of us that finished Tweets, 2 of our 4 Marines wanted jets, 1 of our 2 Navy guys wanted jets, and most of the Air Force assignables wanted T-38's. Of course this changed for various reasons. A couple discovered the C-130 mission and others became frustrated with the maneuvers, the formation phase, etc. We knew we were only getting 4 T-38's for our 13 assignables, so guys were exploring a lot of options knowing that their first choice might be out of reach.

The staff at the 8th, although not fighter MWS heavy, is very T-38 FAIP heavy. We had 4 T-38 FAIPS and a former Viper driver join us to balance two Cobra guys and our C-5 guest help, so nobody was there trying to talk anyone OUT of a fighter, if that's your concern. Also, our flight IP's made sure we were sending the right guys to the T-38 track based on ability and aptitude.

We had a night just prior to track select where MWS guys from all walks came and spoke to us about the lifestyles, and that helped a lot of guys finalize their decision. Bottom line from that night was no matter who you are or where you go, you're probably going to be wearing a tan flight suit sooner than later.

I am guilty of trying to talk a couple of guys into joining me on the T-1 side, not because I think fighters are bad, but because they were good dudes, and they were good to have around. They're in T-44's and T-38's right now...they never listen to me anyway

[ 12 January 2004, 07:14: Message edited by: PAB ]

[Guest stbygain]

Beav,

It's because there is no fighter influence in primary training. The closest anyone gets is having a FAIP who has a fighter follow-on. That's why when I spin back through whitejets I'm upping for primary. It sucks that people are turning down fighters because they are wooed by the heavy crowd. Think about it, how much planning do you do, then brief, and debriefing, just to go to C3 for a 1.2? You can generally count on a solid 8-10 hours for a 1.2, start to finish. Maybe less for CT. Then go do your additional duties for a few hours, ancillary training, and don't forget to come in on Sunday to get ready for Monday's morning flight. I'd personally do twice that for a 1.2, but it sounds crappy at first, especially if you are forced to be in the Tweet flightroom for 12 hours with nothing to do. The idea of endless travel with minimal planning and low stress can sound pretty appealing, and so the rebel force managed to take over most of my Tweet class.

Oh well. Easier for me!

Also, they effectively killed any sembelance of the culture in T-38s when I went through. No porn dollars, no beer.

[Guest yogibehr555]

Yes there is a lack of fighter guys in T-6/T-37s but if someone can be so easily drawn away from wanting a fighter by an "easier" lifestyle then maybe fighters aren't for them in the first place. Anyway, my impression during tweets was that the type of flying you enjoyed most had the largest influenced on what you were going to put down as your first choice for track select. If you really loved formation and Gs then there was little chance a heavy driver was going to convince you to put T-1s first. On the other hand we had a dude in my tweet class that graduated top stick, but his nose was so big he never got a seal with the mask, and he hated Gs!! Needless to say he was happy to put Tones as his first choice.

[Beaver]

Don't make the mistake of comparing flying formation in a tweet to flying fighters. I hated flying formation in tweets, and I wasn't all that thrilled about it in T-38's.

And by the way, T-38 faips know as much about flying fighters as a tweet student. They know a lot about flying T-38's, though.

[Scooter14]

Ryan,

Well put.

Beav,

Agreed somewhat on the FAIP comment, although we had some pretty stand-up guys for FAIPS, they weren't your typical "does your mom know you're in the Air Force" looking kids and they were pretty senior as well, but my main point was that the climate at least in MY flight was to get solid dudes who did well and put forth the effort what they wanted, and most of our solid dudes wanted T-38's. There was no steering of the flight, only individual coaching. I spoke the RC/KC side, the F-16 guy spoke the fighter side, our USMC guy spoke what he could about wht he'd seen, our reservist spoke the bomber side, and so on. We had a pretty good mix.

I don't doubt that heavy cheerleading doesn't happen due to the lack of fighter guys in Tweetland, but I never really saw it.

Toro, thanks for the clarification on the tan bags. I guess a lot happened during my 12 hours of Formal Release today...

[ 12 January 2004, 21:06: Message edited by: PAB ]

[Guest rangerbob5]

A couple of reasons I chose to track to Corpus:

C-130 mission is quite varied and carries a lot of responsiblity for the transport of a lot of important stuff (troops)in very adverse environments.

I felt that actual time spent doing a mission, as opposed to training for one, would be maximized in something other than a fighter/bomber.

Better opportunities for travel.

I *think* more fighter guys get divorced

Corpus Christi (and Navy Training) beats the shit out of UPT at Laughlin (not really a consideration, just a comparison).

[Guest egghead]

As far as easier lifestyle is concered I've got my doubts that one is easier than the other. Sure I imagine Fighters is more stressful flying but I was at McChord in January and had a discussion with a 17 driver and he was deployed over 200 days in the last year. Contrast that with the 16's here at Hill that have been gone less than 100, even then there is a sqd that has gone nowhere at all. Don't know if that's what ya'll mean by lifestyle but it has a place in my thought process.

[Guest VampyreGTX]

Okay, you may have seen my posts around about joining, requirements, etc. (I'm 27 and finally decided to try and go for OTS and UPT). However, my only doubts are about if the family could handle 'the life' of an air fore pilot. What is it really like? How much time does a fighter pilot get at home, meaning, how many days gone, how many days home, on average. I know the last year or two have been a little worse, but I know the 10-20 years I'd put in wouldn't be all like that (maybe 95%? lol). What about for lifters and hercs?

Finally, how often do you move? My wife now hates moving (we've moved 4 times already in the past 5 years) and with a kid on the way, would make that even worse. I don't want to get in only to have her support me (I have her full support, but I know that doesn't necessarily mean she'd be happy with it) until she realizes it's a strain and such after a few years. Would she be able to stay home and not have to work? I know the salary isn't the greatest, but it would be about what our standard of living is now if only I worked and she stayed home with the kid (if we lived on base).

I need all the input I can get on this. This is a tough choice for me and due to my age, my time is running out.

[Guest IAGuardWife]

Check the spouses forum. There is a ton of info on there about being a military wife, what it is like to go through UPT with your husband, etc.

Everything you have asked depends. My husband was a EWO on the RC-135 before UPT/ANG. Some years he was deployed 200 days. Some years he was deployed 45 days. It can change every single year. With RC's you don't move very often. (Offutt is the only RC-135 base).

Your finances will dictate whether or not your wife can stay home, not your salary. Do you have student loans, two new cars and credit cards out the wazoo? Then probably not. If you are financially responsible and not into the "bling-bling" then yeah, she can probably stay home (at least for UPT). At Laughlin 80% of the wives don't work...it's just part of the culture.

[Guest VampyreGTX]

I've got about 600 in monthly debt payments for student loans and about 400 monthly for my wifes car of which I only have about 14 months left on with regular payments. Some of this will decrease as I have employee stock options that I will be eligible to withdraw prior to me leaving my current job at the rate it seems the whole process takes. We don't spend a lot, we've been very financially responsible after we did rack up unneeded debt in our younger years (wow, I'm making it sound like I'm old! LOL)

[Guest HueyPilot]

I'm not a qualified Herk pilot YET, but I have spoken to my new squadron and the deal we're about to get is 120 days deployed (probably more than that since 120 days is IN PLACE, not to and from) and the rest at home. My squadron is making an effort to keep non-deployed TDY to a minimum. At home you'll mostly fly training sorties, occassionally a good-deal channel mission or a JAAT.

My wife and I had about $15K in debt from student loans and other things (she lived off of credit cards in college), plus two car payments. By the way, don't do two car payments unless you have to, it sucks. I got my new car because I needed something to replace my old car (xmsn was going out) and have room for a stroller. Then we accidentally had our second child and her car was inadequate, so we got a mini-van a year and a half after I got my car.

Anyways, as parents of two kids, the child care costs basically made her working moot. So she quit to be a full time mom. I was a 1Lt at the time, and it put a damper on our pocket books. We barely made it by till I made Captain.

We were making inroads to paying of debt (I was prior C-21s, so not too much TDY to make money), and now I'm hoping this TDY to Little Rock will finish it off.

As far as home life, fighters probably is better these days. You will deploy, but not as frequently as the AMC folks. Even the non-deployed assets like C-5s and C-17s have TDY rates over 120 days a year, and many over 180 days a year.

[scoobs]

I would not compare C-5 TDY rate to the C-17. The Globemaster is gone way more then Fred. I talked to a C-17 pilot who was for six weeks and sleeping in tents. At least in the C-5 you will be home after 3 or 4 days unless the plane breaks and not sleeping in the dirt.

[Guest bkh0501]

What is the lifestyle of an Air Force pilot like? I'm sure there are differences among pilots of different weapons systems, but what are they exactly? Do fighter pilots work 12+ hour days all their careers while those that fly heavies work only on weekdays? What input do you all have?

[scoobs]

Here is what life is like for a typical F-16 pilot.I had the same question so how this helps.

Typical Day flying:

Show up about 1 hour prior to Mass Brief (unless I need to do more mission planning). Mass Brief is 2.5 hours prior to takeoff. We brief for about an hour. Step, Start, Taxi, Arm Up takes about an hour. Most local sorties are between 1.0 and 1.5 hours. After landing is about 30 min. Tape assessment is about 45 min. Then debried can last 1-3 hours. If it's an upgrade ride then it will be longer. A CT debried can be real short. Then you have to see if you're flying the next day. If so then you need to start mission planning for the next day. So the flying part takes about 6-9 hours + the mission planning time (0.5 - 2.0 hours). These are average times and usually you can cut down on a lot of it if you're smart about time management. In addition to the flying duties you try to squeeze in some non-flying duties (email, etc...) so that you stay on top of stuff.

Typical Day not flying:

Depends on your job. I started out as a scheduler and it wasn't too bad but some people hate to be schedulers. Other shops include Training, Weapons, Stan/Eval, Mobility, Life Support, Safety. And if you're a LT then you'll have SNACKO responsibilities (snack bar, party planning, cleanup, beer purchasing, squadron cleanup, etc...). If I'm not flying then I'll usually spend about 8-10 hours at work. I shoot for 8 hours but sometimes you get real-time tasking and you have to complete small jobs before you can leave so you find yourself leaving at about the 10 hour mark. The only time I stay longer than 10 hours is if I also have to fly that day OR if I'm double or triple turning (2 or 3 sorties in one day) and of course those are going to be long days. Non-Flying duties usually involve lots of email, paper pushing, reading and adhering to Regs, studying for an upgrade or for self improvement, attending academics, etc... I could get real specific into the jobs of each Shop but I'm not sure if that's what you want.

If someone tells you that they hate flying fighters because they barely fly and spend 12+ hours at work 6 days a week then my response to that is they need to get better time management. I definately do not neglect my life outside flying so I make it a priority to NOT do work at home and to NOT do work on a weekend. There are very rare exceptions to this (such as upgrade rides that I need to prepare) but I am definately satisfied with the fighter lifestyle. The one caveot, I think it is fairly high-paced so I seldom have time to just vegitate in front of the TV or do other things that waste time but are relaxing. I do, however, have time to workout at least 4+ times a week, go camping or rock climbing on the weekends, watch a movie every once in a while, leave work at 3 and go down to the beach for the afternoon, read magazines or books for fun, plus other random hobbies. There are some people who don't have a life outside of flying but I'm definately not one of them. It's all about prioritizing.

[ 25. April 2005, 05:08: Message edited by: Toro ]

[Toro]

Scoobs,

I know you're merely passing along that message, but there's two things in there I'll disagree with. First off, you don't automatically have snacko duties as a lieutenant. The youngest ranking Lt is the official snacko by default, but all the new guys (Lts and Capts) will have the $hit duties like cleaning up the bar Saturday morning.

As far as guys who barely fly and spend 12+ hours at work six days a week needing "to get better time management," tell them to go take a tour at Lakenhell...I mean Lakenheath. I very rarely had <60 hour workweeks.

[Guest HueyPilot]

Do fighter pilots work 12+ hour days all their careers while those that fly heavies work only on weekdays?

Interesting...never ceases to amaze me...the perception that "heavy" crews more or less live in a low-stress work-free environment.

Come on over to AMC and we'll put you to work flying 200-300 days a year, away from home, and force you to work an office job while you are home (and catch up on all that work you missed out on while deployed/TDY).

[Guest AirGuardian]

Less stress,

Seems like the pressure is on in the box on heavies. BIG targets...doing real missions everyday, plus training requirements when we get home. Endless we'll tell ya!

Work Days - Try 22-25 hour plus mission days working the sandbox arena. 3 hours prior, launch 8 hour flight down, 2+00 turn if you're good, 10 hour back(winds)... and that's an easy one. No multiple stops/combat offload/AR may be needed...

That's it - I'd love for the AMC Nazi to say: "No more cargo for you, you and you! Mon thru Fri only - no soup for U!"

Cargo moves 24/7, 365 a year - that's an absolute! It's AMC somewhere in the world...

Every once in awhile - there is a numerous star hotel bonus for us I will not deny!!!

[ClearedHot]

Originally posted by bkh0501:

Do fighter pilots work 12+ hour days all their careers while those that fly heavies work only on weekdays?

Are there really people that think like this? I can't speak for the airlift or tanker folks, but in AFSOC 12 hour days are the norm when you are flying the line. Typical Gunship IP day follows;

1300 - 1330 Show 30 minutes before student to review training record and plan training events for sortie.

1330 - 1430 Ground training session with students.

1430 - 1530 Brief crew on mission profile, training events, munitions loads, range times, etc.

1530 - 1545 Wx brief, file flight plan, step to the airplane.

1600 - 1700 Start engines, taxi to Hot Cargo, upload munitions, continue ground training students.

1700 - 2200 Fly mission, live fire, dry fire, ECM range/threat maneuvers, aerial refueling, approaches.

2200 - 2300 Debrief maintenance/file command post report/complete 781/complete training events log.

2300 - 0001 Debrief crew/mission.

0001-0100 Debrief Student/ground training session.

0100 -? Complete student training folder/checkride forms.

0130 - 0200 Cheat death on Hwy 98 driving home.

Most IPs fly four times a week and many go through periods flying five days a week.

[busdriver]

Line pilot in the 60s:

1700 rollcall (mass brief) how much before this you show is your call

1800 crew brief

1900 go grab a bite to eat

1930-1945 suit up

2000 In seats at the aircraft

2100 take off

0200 land mx debrief immediately (ac only)

0245 debrief (time for this depends on mission complexity, average about an hout) so 0345, out the door

so call it a 11-12 hour day on average if you're flying.

[BlackJetDriver]

B-52 world is different. Larger crews = More officers per squadron = less qweepish $hit to do individually when not flying. People that have ligit jobs in the squadron (i.e. scheduling, training, stan eval) often put in standard 10 hour days. If you are a slug in the squadron then you maybe work 6-8 hour days, downside... the leadership will recognize this and ship you out for a non vol ALO/UAV tour and their earilest convienence. Mission planning takes up one whole 10-12 hour day. Then flying take 12-16 day pending mission length and debrief times. B-2 world? well you can probably imagine, less officers = more qweepy $hit to do besides flying = 10-12 hour days.

[Guest Dirt Beater]

Toro/EvilEagle:

Did the more work usually equate to more flying hours than other bases with the same jets?

What is it about the Heath that gives it said reputation? Squadron size/location/mission/etc??

[Guest Rainman A-10]

I guess I come up short in the "who has it the toughest" dick measuring contest this guy started.

A-10 guys never work more than 6 hours a day unless they're flying and then it's only 4 hours a day. No brief or debrief. Show up, see if there's an open spot on the schedule, go fly around, go to the bar.

If A-10s did fly in combat they don't get their asses shot off like the Herc or bomber guys. I can't remember the last time an A-10 was flying close enough to the threats to take any battle damage, probably never.

A-10 squadrons never have to deploy and when they do, it is to the nicest base in the AOR. I've been in the A-10 for a long time and I can't even spell TDY.

The Pope guys have it easiest by far, they never have to go anywhere. Nothing like the poor Lakenheath or C-17 guys.

[ 29. April 2005, 19:51: Message edited by: Rainman A-10 ]

[Guest C-21 Pilot]

Life as a C-21 Pilot...

Self-Alert...usually from the confines of a 4-5 star hotel, but none-the-less, we'll settle for billeting.

Typically, we get "priority" handling...from fuel to airflow. For example, we are #2 for arrival @ Ramstein behind emergency aircraft. Fuel is "usually" waiting for us upon arrival...esp if we have an active outbound leg.

Mission planning is usually done the night prior, so the day of, it's the usual WANTS check. No debriefs...nor a need for one...unless on a trainer.

Fly 1-4 legs a day, with approx 1+15 on the ground...with each leg approx 2 hr long.

Home approx 80% of the year stateside, 65% of the year here in Europe.

Holidays are typically not a factor...you'll be home for the most part.

Office jobs....they have those in the AF? Well, I mean, it's not the most important part of our mission...but someone pushes the paper, and yeah, we fill offices....but until inspeactions, we don't sweat the small stuff.

Life sucks...

[Toro]

Originally posted by Dirt Beater:

Did the more work usually equate to more flying hours than other bases with the same jets?

Sort of. EvilEagle is right on with his analogy of why things are so tough. A huge part of the stupidity of USAFE was the flying hour program. In a nutshell, the FHP dictates how many sorties your squadron will fly annually and what the average sortie duration will be. In the beginning we try to get the ASD (which is relatively long for an F-15E) by flying long sorties. This means slapping on the external fuel tanks and flying 250KCAS (very slow) to and from our working areas and log a 2.5. Then we realize our ASD is too high so we take off the tanks and fly 450 KCAS to and from the area and log a 0.8. And when we realize we aren't going to fly enough sorties, we surge (each crew flying 2-3 times with a hot pit refueling in between). While I was there, surging was not an exception...it was the norm (at least once a month). I sat in on a weekly staff meeting with the WG/CC, OG/CC and SQ/CCs and the WG/CC said that the USAFE/CC (Fogelsong) had, in not so many words, called him a pu$$y because we he didn't want to up the sortie count for the next year. Despite the fact that we are already pulling 16 hour days, he wants to save face, so he agrees to up the sortie count. Following the trickle down theory, the vice OG/CC tells us at the next aircrew meeting that training does not matter - sortie count does. We had one guy takeoff, pulled closed and land. Logged a 0.1...but it was another sortie. The asspain of Lakenheath will continue until the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome stops. All the peasants know that what's going on is idiotic, but nobody will pass that up to the king.

There's all kinds of other idiotic things about Lakenheath, but I have ranted long enough and I'm just going to get myself more pissed off if I keep typing.