Single Seat or Strike Eagle?

[Sparkle]

Hello, I am very green here and am looking for advice on the topic subject everywhere I can find it. I was hoping to gain insight from those with experience in/retired from the CAF about the pro/cons of flying a single seat fighter vs. the Strike Eagle, specifically on the individual vs. crew aircaft aspect. I've been able to get small bits and pieces of opinion from people around base, but nothing polarizing for either option. I am a UPT student and realize this may be moot as needs of the air force will ultimately be the deciding factor in the assignment I receive, but if granted the opportunity to choose, I'd like to be as informed as possible. Thank you in advance for your time.

[brabus]

One has a nav, one doesn't....choose wisely.

[di1630]

Like asking "gay or straight" of course disregarding the transexual 15C.


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[lazlo]

I've flown both, and each have their own pros/cons.  The Strike Eagle crew can be a great capability enhancer when both pilot and WSO are working well together. Some crews just gelled. Flying in silence and being on the same page was awesome, and reflected on mission success. The flip side is a crew can also easily drain each other's SA and things go terrible. It is also my understanding that the new WSOs showing up from a program with fewer flight hours/requirements, as opposed to the old Navy WSO/NFO program, and are struggling a bit and taking much longer to reach the level of proficiency required to perform.

The Viper is awesome, doing everything I used to do and flying the jet at the same time. The same SA draining example mentioned above can still apply, it just moves out to your element/formation level instead of within the cockpit. (experiences have been few and far between) I do miss the big radar and more bombs, but I wouldn't trade it.  Call me a wuzzo WSO hater, but single-seat is awesome.

Hope that helps, hopefully you have UPT IPs from both communities that you can ask questions as well.  Good luck.

[Ram]

I'd rather have frosted tip gelled hair forced upon me by a bunch of Eagle (F-15C) gaybros than listen to a nav mouthbreathe and ask me to fly every 69 seconds.

Single seat all the way, even if it means being a homo Eagle driver.

To clarify: I fly the Viper.

The math is easy: take the number of ejection seats in your jet, multiplied by the number of engines, and multiply that product by the number of vertical stabs.

Anything more than 1 and you're a homo.


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[HossHarris]

Sparkle--

Do you generally have friends spend the night because you get lonely or scarred by yourself?  

If so, the strike eagle may be for you. 

 

Hell, mud pigs may be for you based on user-name alone. 

[ViperStud]

I went through the same thought process back in UPT, even filled out two dream sheets the day of.  Fortunately I'm straight so it was a no-brainer which one to turn in when I had the gun to my head. I cannot imagine anything else at this point. Imagine having a fvcking WSO as your SQ/CC. That's not some kind of hyperbole in an after-school special to scare people away from drinking beer. It really happens!

[Longhorn15]

The Strike Eagle is awesome, and flying with a WSO is nothing like having an IP with you in the jet at UPT.  Having a WSO is invaluable when doing DT or CAS, which just so happens to be what we've been doing for the last 15 years.  

For the initial Libya strikes F-15Es nearly overflew Aviano (F-16 base) on their way down from the UK, while the Vipers sat on the ground. 

When the COCOM wanted jets in Turkey as a show of force to the Russians last fall, who did they send...Vipers?  Nope.  Strike Eagles again.

If you get a choice, choose wisely.

[Kenny Powers]

It really just depends on which end of the gun you want to be on. If you fly the Strike pig though, at least you won't die alone...

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[R-Dub]

5 hours ago, lazlo said:

I've flown both, and each have their own pros/cons.  The Strike Eagle crew can be a great capability enhancer when both pilot and WSO are working well together. Some crews just gelled. Flying in silence and being on the same page was awesome, and reflected on mission success. The flip side is a crew can also easily drain each other's SA and things go terrible. It is also my understanding that the new WSOs showing up from a program with fewer flight hours/requirements, as opposed to the old Navy WSO/NFO program, and are struggling a bit and taking much longer to reach the level of proficiency required to perform.

I'm currently in the single best job in the USAF where I'm current/qualified in the Eagle and the Viper.  Complete disclosure, I was a Strike Eagle baby growing up.  

I agree completely with a lot of this sentiment.  There are some sorties, both training and combat, that I'll never forget because of the leathality present with a formation of F-15Es with sound crew coord.  However, having a bad day with a bad WSO/poor crew coord is miserable.  The crew construct really is a force multiplier; for the good and the bad.  A good crew is way better than the equivalent effort of two people.  Having a bad crew day makes me feel like I need more than double the effort just to make ends meet.

5 hours ago, lazlo said:

The Viper is awesome, doing everything I used to do and flying the jet at the same time. The same SA draining example mentioned above can still apply, it just moves out to your element/formation level instead of within the cockpit. (experiences have been few and far between) I do miss the big radar and more bombs, but I wouldn't trade it.  Call me a wuzzo WSO hater, but single-seat is awesome.

I wish I could articulate how obvious it is to immediately distinguish the difference between the designed mission set of these two aircraft on your first Viper sortie.  The Viper with a GE motor on a cold day truly is a rocket ship.  I've taken a single-bag jet on a sub-freezing morning with a GE-100 to FL300 on an unrestricted climb.  It's a ton of fun!

 

2 hours ago, Longhorn15 said:

The Strike Eagle is awesome, and flying with a WSO is nothing like having an IP with you in the jet at UPT.  Having a WSO is invaluable when doing DT or CAS, which just so happens to be what we've been doing for the last 15 years.  

For the initial Libya strikes F-15Es nearly overflew Aviano (F-16 base) on their way down from the UK, while the Vipers sat on the ground. 

When the COCOM wanted jets in Turkey as a show of force to the Russians last fall, who did they send...Vipers?  Nope.  Strike Eagles again.

If you get a choice, choose wisely.

I've never taken the Viper to combat.  Having said that, I'm not sure I would ever want to.  The jet is a nightmare from a human factors or avionics perspective.  The RADAR is a joke.  The ability to utilize sensors is still a slave to a 1970s construct that has been completely debunked and remains a complete liability to the airframe.  Many of the current DT efforts are an attempt to bring the jet to a level that is, in many ways, equivalent with F-15E Suite 5, let alone Suite 9.  Except for Auto ICAS.  I wish the F-15C/D/E could get that, if only for risk reduction.  In many ways, the Viper jet is a true testament to the dudes flying the jet.  There's a ton of compensation required to employ it effectively, and the bros have done an amazing job over the last 25 years making that jet as lethal as it has been.  

Having said that, there's a reason the USAF is spending $10B to maintain the F-15 fleet through 2050 and replacing the Viper.  Pick the jet you would take to war.  That's a pretty easy choice for the current COCOMs.  Good luck on your decision.

 

Edited October 2, 2016 by R-Dub

[Kenny Powers]

Pick the jet you would take to war.  

That's a pretty easy choice for the current COCOMs.

 

Yeah, MEZ pen probably won't be an issue...I mean, you just avoid the SAMs, right???

I'll stick with my block 50.

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[R-Dub]

37 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Yeah, MEZ pen probably won't be an issue...I mean, you just avoid the SAMs, right???

I'll stick with my block 50.

Compelling argument...

 

Don't get me wrong.  If the choice was proceed with or without SEAD with a Blk 50 squadron ready to fight, the choice is easy.  I always wanted the support.  Libya circa 2011 illustrated very effective F-16/F-15E SEAD/DEAD integration.  Like I said, the bros flying the jet are doing great work.  I have no doubt they will continue to do great work in the Viper.

 

With that said, if the Blk 50s aren't there, aren't able to support, or are not in enough quantity to be effective, the war goes on.  It can't be a surprise to you that platforms perform deep interdiction/MEZ pen routinely without SEAD support (both in training and with a significant amount of recent historical precendence).  Even with it, the F-16 is not the only asset in the inventory to provide that capability.  

 

But this thread isn't about how great the F-16 and F-15E were in the past.  I'm confident the F-16 will be the next fighter on the chopping block to sacrifice for F-35 production, just like the A-10.  The F-15E will not (at least in the near term).  I know what I would put on my dream sheet if I was concerned about the next twenty years.  

Edited October 2, 2016 by R-Dub

[brabus]

FWIW, both the 16s and 15s don't sunset until mid 2040s...so nobody should make the decision based on longevity.  Both will be around longer than a guy in UPT right now will be flying fighters.  Now if we could afford 2000 Raptors and 2000 Fat Amys it might be a different story, but that's not reality.

[Buddy Spike]

WSOs aren't real people.

I'd rather have the extra gas.

 

[Muscle2002]

WSOs aren't real people.
I'd rather have the extra gas.
 

Said every Viper pilot in history. Actually, it would be extra bullets in the F-15C.


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[Buddy Spike]

6 minutes ago, Muscle2002 said:

Said every Viper pilot in history. Actually, it would be extra bullets in the F-15C.


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Don't forget the Legacy / Rhino Hornet community.

[F16Deuce]

I wish I had a WSO...said no F-35/22/16/15C/A-10 pilot ever.

[F16Deuce]

On October 2, 2016 at 6:11 AM, Longhorn15 said:

 

For the initial Libya strikes F-15Es nearly overflew Aviano (F-16 base) on their way down from the UK, while the Vipers sat on the ground. 

We took off from Spangdahlem that night.

[Sprkt69]

11 hours ago, R-Dub said:

I've never taken the Viper to combat.  Having said that, I'm not sure I would ever want to.  The jet is a nightmare from a human factors or avionics perspective.  The RADAR is a joke.  The ability to utilize sensors is still a slave to a 1970s construct that has been completely debunked and remains a complete liability to the airframe.  Many of the current DT efforts are an attempt to bring the jet to a level that is, in many ways, equivalent with F-15E Suite 5, let alone Suite 9.  Except for Auto ICAS.  I wish the F-15C/D/E could get that, if only for risk reduction.  In many ways, the Viper jet is a true testament to the dudes flying the jet.  There's a ton of compensation required to employ it effectively, and the bros have done an amazing job over the last 25 years making that jet as lethal as it has been.  

Having said that, there's a reason the USAF is spending $10B to maintain the F-15 fleet through 2050 and replacing the Viper.  Pick the jet you would take to war.  That's a pretty easy choice for the current COCOMs.  Good luck on your decision.

 

So basically what you said is that if you suck at the whole flying thing, go Mudhen as you can now fly a family model to have a WSO do everything for you.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Sprkt69

[Lawman]

This thread....



It's good to know the one universal in all branches of the military when it comes to aviation is reminding everybody how your selection was the right one and theirs was stupid.

[ViperStud]

6 hours ago, R-Dub said:

I'm confident the F-16 will be the next fighter on the chopping block to sacrifice for F-35 production, just like the A-10.  The F-15E will not (at least in the near term).  I know what I would put on my dream sheet if I was concerned about the next twenty years.  

There's a more compelling argument (fact, depending on who you know who was in on the latest POM discussion) that the C-models are next out the door after the Hog. Single mission, replacement already IOC and killin it, haven't hit a pickle button in anger for 13+ yrs, etc. Lets be real here. 

[Kenny Powers]

So since I helped derail this thread, I'll give some actual advice to the OP - don't sweat it dude.

I remember a bunch of my active duty bros really trying to figure this out before drop night back when I was in UPT and let me tell you, it's a good problem to have. They're all happy in the current airframes (at least from a flying/mission point.)

Put them in order on your sheet and hope for the best. If it turns out you don't get a Viper, you'll be happy wherever you end up. Unless you get C models...

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[sqwatch]

For the initial Libya strikes F-15Es nearly overflew Aviano (F-16 base) on their way down from the UK, while the Vipers sat on the ground.

Wrong. If you're gonna throw you're schvance out on the internet, at least have your facts straight, juxtaposed to your sexuality. Ask yourself who was providing SEAD for the first day of Libya and re-assess.


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[Sprkt69]

14 minutes ago, sqwatch said:

 

Wrong. If you're gonna throw you're schvance out on the internet, at least have your facts straight, juxtaposed to your sexuality. Ask yourself who was providing SEAD for the first day of Libya and re-assess.


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He may need his WSO to tell him what was going on

[lazlo]

19 hours ago, Longhorn15 said:

 

When the COCOM wanted jets in Turkey as a show of force to the Russians last fall, who did they send...Vipers?  Nope.  Strike Eagles again.

 

I think the C-models got there 6 days prior.  You suck again!