NFL Ratings are Way Down

[Magnum]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:32 AM, 17D_guy said:

This is legit the question I was going to ask.  Is it good training...seems so from your statement.

No, it's not. It has very little transferable skill to combat effectiveness. It doesn't mean we shouldn't continue doing them though.

We live in the greatest country in the world where you can have 50,000-100,000+ screaming fans cheering for 'merica!  It's good publicity, it's something different for the pilots to do and is usually a morale booster for the guys involved. I've never walked away from a fly by thinking, man those were some good lessons learned.

Are demo's good training? How about the thunderbirds or the AF band (if that's still a thing).  There are plenty of advantages to projecting airpower to the masses, training doesn't need to be a requirement.

[08Dawg]

On 10/22/2020 at 1:17 PM, HuggyU2 said:

I have no idea if a B-52, F-22, or KC-135 crew would find it good training.  

Hitting a TOT is good training for a Buff crew, especially since our turn radius takes us into the next zip code. 

[Mark1]

On 10/25/2020 at 12:17 AM, Magnum said:

No, it's not. It has very little transferable skill to combat effectiveness. It doesn't mean we shouldn't continue doing them though.

We live in the greatest country in the world where you can have 50,000-100,000+ screaming fans cheering for 'merica!  It's good publicity, it's something different for the pilots to do and is usually a morale booster for the guys involved. I've never walked away from a fly by thinking, man those were some good lessons learned.

Are demo's good training? How about the thunderbirds or the AF band (if that's still a thing).  There are plenty of advantages to projecting airpower to the masses, training doesn't need to be a requirement.

Um, John Q. Public here.  I love a flyby as much as the next guy, but sorry, I'm not paying taxes so that you can go out and have a unique joyride in the jet.  I pay taxes to maintain a competent fighting force.  Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take.

You want to go joyride? Buy your own $200M jet and offer services to the NFL on your own time.

And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong.  Based on some of the atrocious TOTs I've seen on TV over the last few years, most of the guys flying them need the training.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Mark1

[TreeA10]

Joyride??? Are you freaking kidding me?  Plan a 4 ship TOT Involving airspace issues and ground coordination. That's a real world requirement. Park in airspace that deconflicts with a variety of threats and restrictions. Been there, done that. Work comm issues with a ground party to hit a TOT and solve weather, threat, and last minute changes to accurately arrive when and where you want to be. Easier said than done but part of the job description.  No doubt TOTs have been missed and formation positions have been atrocious but the answer is more training not less. If you can't master the basics, the complex mission tasks aren't going to be any easier. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by TreeA10

[Guardian]

Mark1 = JQP. Yeah.....nope

[SurelySerious]

2 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Mark1 = JQP. Yeah.....nope

I think he meant in the general, “from my taxpayer perspective” and not the “i wrote a blog that sold out” one. 

[viper154]

1 hour ago, Mark1 said:

Um, John Q. Public here.  I love a flyby as much as the next guy, but sorry, I'm not paying taxes so that you can go out and have a unique joyride in the jet.  I pay taxes to maintain a competent fighting force.  Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take.

You want to go joyride? Buy your own $200M jet and offer services to the NFL on your own time.

And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong.  Based on some of the atrocious TOTs I've seen on TV over the last few years, most of the guys flying them need the training.

As a tax payer I would be way more concerned with plenty of the other shit we waste money on before I got to flyovers.  I’ve never done a flyover,  but I’m willing to bet a paycheck I would learn 10x more from planning and executing one than I learn from the 69 million mandatory down days we take to talk about our feelings. 
 

[jrizzell]

Joyride??? Are you freaking kidding me?  Plan a 4 ship TOT Involving airspace issues and ground coordination. That's a real world requirement. Park in airspace that deconflicts with a variety of threats and restrictions. Been there, done that. Work comm issues with a ground party to hit a TOT and solve weather, threat, and last minute changes to accurately arrive when and where you want to be. Easier said than done but part of the job description.  No doubt TOTs have been missed and formation positions have been atrocious but the answer is more training not less. If you can't master the basics, the complex mission tasks aren't going to be any easier. 

I’m going to venture that Joyride has never participated or planned an event like this. For many airframes, TOT control is critical to “combat effectiveness”.

[Mark1]

2 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

Joyride??? Are you freaking kidding me?  Plan a 4 ship TOT Involving airspace issues and ground coordination. That's a real world requirement. Park in airspace that deconflicts with a variety of threats and restrictions. Been there, done that. Work comm issues with a ground party to hit a TOT and solve weather, threat, and last minute changes to accurately arrive when and where you want to be. Easier said than done but part of the job description.  No doubt TOTs have been missed and formation positions have been atrocious but the answer is more training not less. If you can't master the basics, the complex mission tasks aren't going to be any easier. 

 

1 hour ago, jrizzell said:

I’m going to venture that Joyride has never participated or planned an event like this. For many airframes, TOT control is critical to “combat effectiveness”.

 

1 hour ago, viper154 said:

As a tax payer I would be way more concerned with plenty of the other shit we waste money on before I got to flyovers.  I’ve never done a flyover,  but I’m willing to bet a paycheck I would learn 10x more from planning and executing one than I learn from the 69 million mandatory down days we take to talk about our feelings. 
 

I responded to someone who said flyovers were of no training value and insinuated that they only favor doing them because they're a morale boost and "America, Fuck Yeah!".

I noted that IF that were true, they shouldn't be happening.

I also noted that if this person wasn't learning from a flyover, they were doing it wrong [because there's plenty to learn from a flyover].

Further, I suggested that it appeared a good portion of people doing the flyovers actually needed the training [that you get from a flyover].

Which side of the arguement do you think I'm on?  You can unbunch your panties now.

The point was that if the person I was responding to was in the jet for no purpose (i.e. not training), then they're "joyriding" and defrauding the U.S. taxpayer.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Mark1

[jrizzell]

I responded to someone who said flyovers were of no training value and insinuated that they only favor doing them because they're a morale boost and "America, Yeah!".
I noted that IF that were true, they shouldn't be happening.
I also noted that if this person wasn't learning from a flyover, they were doing it wrong [because there's plenty to learn from a flyover].
Further, I suggested that it appeared a good portion of people doing the flyovers actually needed the training [that you get from a flyover].
Which side of the arguement do you think I'm on?  You can unbunch your panties now.
The point was that if the person I was responding to was in the jet for no purpose (i.e. not training), then they're "joyriding" and defrauding the U.S. taxpayer.

Point of order...I never mentioned your comments. I was referring only to Joyrides silly statement; my panties are unbunched.

[Guardian]

I don’t understand why you all are wearing underwear

[skibum]

What's underwear?

[filthy_liar]

On 10/26/2020 at 6:30 PM, Mark1 said:

Um, John Q. Public here.  I love a flyby as much as the next guy, but sorry, I'm not paying taxes so that you can go out and have a unique joyride in the jet.  I pay taxes to maintain a competent fighting force.  Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take.

You want to go joyride? Buy your own $200M jet and offer services to the NFL on your own time.

And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong.  Based on some of the atrocious TOTs I've seen on TV over the last few years, most of the guys flying them need the training.

Fair one.  I got pretty good training on the ones I did.  Time on target, adjusting to the second, queep altitude restrictions that i wasn't used to, and in one case - unfamiliar...very unfamiliar landing conditions.  Fair point though.  I dunno if flybys are worth it or not.  I thought about that when I was flying them.

[Magnum]

On 10/26/2020 at 4:30 PM, Mark1 said:

Um, John Q. Public here.  I love a flyby as much as the next guy, but sorry, I'm not paying taxes so that you can go out and have a unique joyride in the jet.  I pay taxes to maintain a competent fighting force.  Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take.

You want to go joyride? Buy your own $200M jet and offer services to the NFL on your own time.

And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong.  Based on some of the atrocious TOTs I've seen on TV over the last few years, most of the guys flying them need the training.

Thank you for your expert opinion Mr John Q. If you have a concern with how the $0.0003 you contributed to a 4-ship fly by through your taxes (assuming you pay taxes) is spent tell your congressman.  Thank you for your lecture on how we should train.  I'll be sure to raise your concerns with my pilots at the next possible opportunity.

Just FYI, we in the military all pay taxes too.

[Mark1]

8 hours ago, Magnum said:

Thank you for your expert opinion Mr John Q. If you have a concern with how the $0.0003 you contributed to a 4-ship fly by through your taxes (assuming you pay taxes) is spent tell your congressman.  Thank you for your lecture on how we should train.  I'll be sure to raise your concerns with my pilots at the next possible opportunity.

Just FYI, we in the military all pay taxes too.

I don't have concern (if you read my posts, you'll see this).  And since we're discussing flyovers and, from your perspective, there's no training involved in flyovers, I don't see how I could be lecturing on how you train. But thanks for the education on your financial circumstances.  Must be senile in my 'old' age and have forgotten about that part from when I wasn't John Q. Public.

Everybody here is pissed when they see tax dollars being wasted on Obamaphones and pork-barrel subsidies.  But when it's them wasting tax dollars for personal benefit and they're called on it, they're just as self-righteous and indignant as the guy who gets told 5 Obamaphones is enough.  It's no wonder we're approaching $30 trillion in debt.

And for the slow learners:

No, I'm not saying flyovers are a waste, and I don't want my $0.0003 back.  Just that it's a pretty piss-poor attitude for somebody who does believe they're a waste, to also say, "Fuck it, who cares.  They're fun and, let's be honest, it's all about me".  Especially somebody who is, ostensibly, 'serving' the country.

[Magnum]

4 hours ago, Mark1 said:

I don't have concern (if you read my posts, you'll see this).  And since we're discussing flyovers and, from your perspective, there's no training involved in flyovers, I don't see how I could be lecturing on how you train. But thanks for the education on your financial circumstances.  Must be senile in my 'old' age and have forgotten about that part from when I wasn't John Q. Public.

Everybody here is pissed when they see tax dollars being wasted on Obamaphones and pork-barrel subsidies.  But when it's them wasting tax dollars for personal benefit and they're called on it, they're just as self-righteous and indignant as the guy who gets told 5 Obamaphones is enough.  It's no wonder we're approaching $30 trillion in debt.

And for the slow learners:

No, I'm not saying flyovers are a waste, and I don't want my $0.0003 back.  Just that it's a pretty piss-poor attitude for somebody who does believe they're a waste, to also say, " it, who cares.  They're fun and, let's be honest, it's all about me".  Especially somebody who is, ostensibly, 'serving' the country.

Well let's see. You said:

"Training (or recruitment objectives) damn well better factor into every flight you take."

And:

"And yeah, a flyover might be light on legitimate training objectives, but if you can't learn something from one, you're doing it wrong."

Perhaps a misinterpretation on my part but that sure sounds like a lecture on how to train.

My point about the taxes was that your input on how tax dollars are spent happens at the ballot box. Just because you pay taxes doesn't give you a position to dictate what the military does with that money.

I never said it was a waste of money, in fact the opposite. I said you don't get valuable training transferable to combat. There are plenty of tax payers that want to see their military in action. It's valuable for the American public to see their force in action. Other than airshows, fly overs are an opportunity to get in front of the public and I think that's worthwhile.  By the way, the vast majority of these fly overs are not sought out by the pilot. They are either directed or published on an Air Force PA approved list.

You're pretty good at making shit up and putting it in quotes as if I said it. Your lack of basic reading and comprehension skills are the root cause for all the inaccuracies in your last paragraph.

[Magnum]

On 10/26/2020 at 8:11 PM, Mark1 said:

The point was that if the person I was responding to was in the jet for no purpose (i.e. not training), then they're "joyriding" and defrauding the U.S. taxpayer.

Can't believe I overlooked this gem.  Here are a list of sorties that must also be defrauding the govt since the pilot gets no training on them:

- Depot deliveries / returns

- TDY cross country

- AOS movements

- Every demo (TBirds, Raptor, Viper, Hog)

- Airshow static displays

- FCF

- Every combat sortie

[HercDude]

A brief discussion on why NFL ratings (along with every other sport) are down this year:

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/10/14/sports-cable-news-ratings-2020

 

Reader's Digest version - it's an election year and there is a pandemic, so people are watching FoxNews, CNN, and MSNBC instead of sports.  If you, personally, watched any of those channels instead of the World Series, punch yourself in the dick.

 

 

[HuggyU2]

3 hours ago, HercDude said:

If you, personally, watched any of those channels instead of the World Series, punch yourself in the dick.

I'll pass.  

I didn't know the World Series was ongoing until they had played Game 3.  I simply do not give two shits.  

When does the NFL season start? 

[HuggyU2]

On 10/30/2020 at 8:59 PM, Magnum said:

They are either directed or published on an Air Force PA approved list.

To be clear, they must all be on the SAF/PA approved list.  

I've seen very few flyovers "directed from above".  Normally, they are put on the SAF/PA list and units volunteer.  If no one volunteers, they usually don't get flown.  Yes, there are exceptions.  

[Pooter]

Flyovers are excellent training and I don't care who you are or what you fly.  Simply being able to be at a specific place at a specific time has more real world combat implications than any BFM larping you'd rather be doing.

[di1630]

Flyovers are excellent training and I don't care who you are or what you fly.  Simply being able to be at a specific place at a specific time has more real world combat implications than any BFM larping you'd rather be doing.

Yeah, it’s pretty damn rough with INS/GPS to hit an uncontested TOT these days. I say we dedicate missions to it..maybe a phase. Reminds me of the time in the ‘stan, there I was, EGI failure...no sh-t...checking my g-shock watch hoping I had the skills to make that TOT to the tanker +\- 10 min with quartering headwinds so strong, I had to wind correct.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app

[HuggyU2]

On 11/2/2020 at 12:03 AM, di1630 said:

Yeah, it’s pretty damn rough with INS/GPS to hit an uncontested TOT these days. 

It certainly can be. 

One of the more difficult flyovers I led was for 2008 Air Force Week in LA.  We held over the Rose Bowl.  Because of LAX airspace, our initial inbound heading was roughly south, with a pylon turn to the west around downtown IVO East Los Angeles, for a westerly run in.  Although the video looks like it is bright, it wasn't.  In fact it was post sunset (we had a waiver).  The downtown lights were very bright, and the Coliseum lights are pointed down and in, and don't show up until the last portion of the run in.  Staying below LA's Class B with the huge amount of lighting in the area added to the difficulty.  

This was 12 years ago, and yes, GPS existed.   But due to the non-linear IP-to-target run, the intricacies of SoCal approach and the potential flex of the Anthem, it was quite dynamic.  And we are flying the A-model, not the C-model with whatever bells, whistles and HUD it has.  

We did extensive route study, timing contingencies, etc... and we trained like it was a "GPS-degraded environment".  I suppose we could have laid down 99 waypoints on the curvilinear route we flew... but we didn't.  We used a Sectional, LA TAC chart, and some aerial photos.  

Once the flyover was done, due to LAX congestion, we managed to get sequenced into the LAX traffic flow, did 2 night wing landings, well after sunset, in black jets, to 25L.  Everybody involved in the evolution, including an F-16 pilot, TPS graduate, and a lot of high-time instructors, felt a good sense of accomplishment.  The intricacies of completing the flyover included getting the formation to EDW, and getting the jets safely on the ground at LAX's FBO.  We knew we were going to break a number of rules to get it done, and we got the waivers from HQ so we could do it.  ALL OF THAT COORDINATION  is part of making it successful... not just the last 10 miles of the run-in.  

Anyone can scoff doing flyovers if you want.  And maybe my geekery combined with the fact I don't drop bombs gives me no "real world relevance".  But I've done shitloads over the years and found ways to challenge myself on all of them.  And I'm a better pilot for it.  

 

[TreeA10]

Fortunately, I wasn't involved in this but....In the late 80s, some of my fellow T-38 IPs were going to do a flyover for the Mississippi State - Arkansas State Football game in Starkville MS.  I didn't think too much about it when I was walking in the BX and saw the 4 ship come up initial after the flyby and pitch out other than, "Damn, that looks like some really low clouds for the overhead to be open.  Must be an optical illusion."

Well, Tuesday, the local paper comes out and there is this huge picture on the front page.  There is a band geek in the foreground of the picture with his big fuzzy hat and a trumpet with the T-38 4 ship in the background.  The 4 ship was in a 20-30 degree left bank and look really, really close because you can make out panels and markings detail but I'm thinking it's a photo trick using f-stop settings.

A week or two goes by and then this cast of characters from Randolph show up conducting an investigation about the flyby.  The investigation got started when some fan of flybys in the stands sent a "that was awesome" letter to Randolph with the newspaper picture enclosed.

So, here's what happened.  The weather was marginal at best but probably below mins.  Our intrepid heroes, SQ CC in the backseat of #1, not wanting to disappoint the fans decided to press.  It's a south to north run planned to cross at the end of the anthem.  They depart the IP on time and the nose gunner picks up stadium lights slightly left of the nose so they check a little left and continue.  As they get closer to the lights, they realize it's tennis court lights and not the stadium then find the stadium well right of the nose.  They commence an aggressive right hand turn to solve the offset but immediately have to do a left hand turn to make it over the stadium.  In this alignment maneuver, they don't notice they are descending.

The end result was they barely cleared the top of the stadium.  I don't recall actual height other than they were low.  Some folks in the top row claim they were eye level but I find that difficult to believe.  All the pilots came clean and admitted it was a mistake so nobody was summarily executed and all went on to successful careers.

As icing on the cake, the Mississippi State Bulldogs Football team, put together a commercial to promote interest and fire up the fan base and wouldn't you know it, there was video of the very low flyby and it appears at the end of the commercial.  So we got to see that a couple times a week.

So, flybys require some serious decision making on the fly, create pressure to get the job done, promote service awareness, and offer the opportunity to excel...or not.  Excellent training in my opinion.

[Tank]

Nothing beats this flyover.  
Too bad the flight lead took the hit so that the rest of the formation was spared...