Do Certain Groups in AF Need More Mentorship?

[Guest ThatGuy]

I know this is an old article. Just wanted to obtain everyone's perspective. 

https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/race-and-the-air-force-the-truth-about-how-minorities-get-promoted

I read Michael Jordan worked his butt off in the gym to become the GOAT. I have always carried that type of mindset playing basketball and aspiring to become a pilot. It paid off, but working ten times harder than others will burn you out at some point. Especially attempting to do it for 20 years. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by slick999

[guineapigfury]

I think Spencer hits the nail on the head with the DFP being lack of black pilots to start with.  I've been in 10 years and I can count the number of black pilots I've flown with on two hands and have a few fingers left over.  Why they're not applying for pilot training, I don't know.  If this is something Big Blue is interested in addressing, maybe we should stand up a few ROTC dets at HBCUs.

[cragspider]

15 minutes ago, guineapigfury said:

I think Spencer hits the nail on the head with the DFP being lack of black pilots to start with.  I've been in 10 years and I can count the number of black pilots I've flown with on two hands and have a few fingers left over.  Why they're not applying for pilot training, I don't know.  If this is something Big Blue is interested in addressing, maybe we should stand up a few ROTC dets at HBCUs.

They do have dets at these schools. My class if I remember correctly maybe commissioned one my year. They just are not getting them to stay in the program which was a problem at my det. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by cragspider
To tired to see straight

[guineapigfury]

13 minutes ago, cragspider said:

They do have dets at these schools. My class if I remember correctly maybe commissioned one my year. They just are not getting them to stay in the program which was a problem at my det. 

Was there any common thread with dudes dropping out?

[TnkrToad]

Only gripe I have in the article is that, in a few places, the writer conflates race with gender. It's pretty clear that females have an overall promotion advantage in the AF, at least within the officer corps. I sure hope Big Blue doesn't use efforts to account for racial disparities to further exacerbate the feminization of the Air Force.

TT

[Guest ThatGuy]

 

19 minutes ago, guineapigfury said:

Was there any common thread with dudes dropping out?

These are my best guesses: 1. Money, because AFROTC isn't free. If you have to drop a class due to lack of money, AFROTC will be at the top of the list.

2. I am sure you still have to be selected for a field training spot too, which complicates matters for some as well.

3. Maybe AFOQT scores?

4. Need more pilots talking to these kids. People they can actually relate to on a certain level. However, most of the guys I know don't have too many positive things to say about their experiences in the AF as minority pilots. I can't say I have experienced the same treatment, but I know they are telling the truth because old habits never die.

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by slick999

[Weezer]

On 11/5/2016 at 1:30 PM, Guest ThatGuy said:

3. Maybe AFOQT scores?

Maybe it's hard to be competitive for a pilot slot without flight hours to boost your PCSM score.  Maybe socioeconomic factors make it less likely a minority candidate has a private pilot's license.

[dream big]

My mentor will always be the crusty passed over (maybe) major/LTC still in the squadron, those types have provided me more mentorship then any "career" guy.  

PSA: real mentorship in a flying squadron happens in the squadron bar (not heritage room) on Fridays with the beer light on. 

[BashiChuni]

1 hour ago, dream big said:

My mentor will always be the crusty passed over (maybe) major/LTC still in the squadron, those types have provided me more mentorship then any "career" guy.  

PSA: real mentorship in a flying squadron happens in the squadron bar (not heritage room) on Fridays with the beer light on. 

tell that to the Vance OG/cc

Edited May 5, 2017 by BashiChuni

[dream big]

On 11/5/2016 at 0:30 PM, Guest ThatGuy said:

 

These are my best guesses: 1. Money, because AFROTC isn't free. If you have to drop a class due to lack of money, AFROTC will be at the top of the list.

2. I am sure you still have to be selected for a field training spot too, which complicates matters for some as well.

3. Maybe AFOQT scores?

4. Need more pilots talking to these kids. People they can actually relate to on a certain level. However, most of the guys I know don't have too many positive things to say about their experiences in the AF as minority pilots. I can't say I have experienced the same treatment, but I know they are telling the truth because old habits never die.

 

Not saying racism doesn't happen, but as a minority I've found the military to be the most accepting sect of society.  I've known many minority pilots in the AF and they are treated no different then non minorities. 

Women? Different story but I won't open that can of worms.

 

[pawnman]

On 11/5/2016 at 0:30 PM, Guest ThatGuy said:

 

These4. Need more pilots talking to these kids. People they can actually relate to on a certain level. However, most of the guys I know don't have too many positive things to say about their experiences in the AF as minority pilots. I can't say I have experienced the same treatment, but I know they are telling the truth because old habits never die.

 

 

This will become a larger issue as the rated manning shortage hits more and more units. ROTC is a highly desirable assignment for a lot of guys, but very low priority for AFPC with the current rated staffing issues.

[ThreeHoler]

Not saying racism doesn't happen, but as a minority I've found the military to be the most accepting sect of society.  I've known many minority pilots in the AF and they are treated no different then non minorities. 
Women? Different story but I won't open that can of worms.

I treat everyone the same until they show they want to be treated differently. Most of the women I've flown with were part of the team...only a small percentage of them required special treatment.

[Seriously]

In the article, Gen Spencer says, "Every one of them told me the same thing: ‘I don’t like telling you this, and it’s not right,’ but they felt like they had to work harder than their peers to get to the same point,” Shit.... I've felt that my whole career. I'm willing to bet that most people think they're working harder than average. You see your own hard work, but you rarely see everyone else's. 

Just a thought... Maybe the noticeable lack of diversity in the higher ranks creates a self-perpetuating perception that there are barriers to entry. Because they think those barriers are there, they are less apt to even try to advance. Why play a game you know you aren't going to win? The U.S. has a history of repressing the black population, so it's not a big logical leap to assume that the military will also harbor racial biases. There is no reliable way to determine whether that bias actually exists to a level significant enough to affect promotion, so we're left to assume there is an actual effect. 

 

[BFM this]

1 hour ago, Seriously said:

Just a thought... Maybe the noticeable lack of diversity in the higher ranks creates a self-perpetuating perception that there are barriers to entry. Because they think those barriers are there, they are less apt to even try to advance. 

THIS THIS THIS!!! should be the basis of EO.  Done right, it's not about mission or performance degrading eyewash, it's about creating a welcoming environment.

Done wrong, it quickly devolves into tokens, quotas, and politically expedient circus sideshows that destroy trust and military effectiveness.

I'm about as far from a flaming liberal as you can get, but even my dinosaur brain gets this.

[Fuzz]

The Army has been trying to fix the lack of minorities in combat fields for years, you can find dozens of articles about it with a quick google search. They've tried targeted recruitment, incentives etc. none have worked. Why? Well minorities (especially blacks) gravitate towards the career fields that provide skills for post-military service and translate to civilian jobs well. Being an infantryman is great but for a black kid with not a great education, "slaying bodies" as a skill on a resume isn't going to get them very far. On the other hand, a couple years working in logistics, as a mechanic or some other similar field gives a great chance of landing a good job after they finish their time in the military.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/09/18/dont-blame-my-army-for-the-lack-of-black-officers-in-combat-commands/

[Weezer]

10 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

The Army has been trying to fix the lack of minorities in combat fields for years, you can find dozens of articles about it with a quick google search. They've tried targeted recruitment, incentives etc. none have worked. Why? Well minorities (especially blacks) gravitate towards the career fields that provide skills for post-military service and translate to civilian jobs well. Being an infantryman is great but for a black kid with not a great education, "slaying bodies" as a skill on a resume isn't going to get them very far. On the other hand, a couple years working in logistics, as a mechanic or some other similar field gives a great chance of landing a good job after they finish their time in the military.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/09/18/dont-blame-my-army-for-the-lack-of-black-officers-in-combat-commands/

Comparing infantry officer to pilot is apples to oranges as far as post-military employment goes.  I would say flying aircraft of any kind in any mission directly correlates to pretty good post-military employment prospects.

[Heavywanabe]

I think the young generation as a whole needs more aviation mentors. A lot of the pilots i know in the civilian world are second generation pilots or had other family in aviation, and i'm talking about the under 30 crowd. I think this is because from the outside looking in it seems like the hurdles are enormous, whether it be financial or just the lack direction for the proper steps to become successful. The company i work for has a entity with about 16 piston aircraft, we used to pay to have them cleaned once a month by a detail company. We decided to quit that and now pay different youth organizations to come out and clean airplanes every Sunday. The purpose of this is to get kids from every walk of life the opportunity to be around aviation, ask questions, and hopefully spark interest in the youth of the community. 95% of the youth today have never actually touched an aircraft in GA much less been on a ramp. 

 

Now i'm just waiting to enter UPT so I have zero idea of the culture of the AF pilot community yet, but I think that actually getting a slot has zero to do with race. If dudes have all the right scores and the personality I don't think it matters what race they are. In my opinion we need to get more people interested in actually wanting to be a pilot.

 

[matmacwc]

2 minutes ago, Heavywanabe said:

 The company i work for has a entity with about 16 piston aircraft, we used to pay to have them cleaned once a month by a detail company. We decided to quit that and now pay different youth organizations to come out and clean airplanes every Sunday. The purpose of this is to get kids from every walk of life the opportunity to be around aviation, ask questions, and hopefully spark interest in the youth of the community. 95% of the youth today have never actually touched an aircraft in GA much less been on a ramp. 

 

 

Effing genius.

[Fuzz]

1 hour ago, Weezer said:

Comparing infantry officer to pilot is apples to oranges as far as post-military employment goes.  I would say flying aircraft of any kind in any mission directly correlates to pretty good post-military employment prospects.

It didn't for the last decade plus, now it's a booming employment prospect. Also many of the intangible skills that you gain aside from flying skills may not be readily apparent to someone who has zero knowledge of or exposure to the field. Hence the reason many gravitate towards support fields that teach more readily recognizable skills.

[pawnman]

3 hours ago, Weezer said:

Comparing infantry officer to pilot is apples to oranges as far as post-military employment goes.  I would say flying aircraft of any kind in any mission directly correlates to pretty good post-military employment prospects.

The difference is that a pilot requires a degree to get started in the military.  So if you're a young kid from a poor background looking for cheap job training, pilot may not be in the cards.

[matmacwc]

Your guys are looking at it wrong, the same reason we all bitch about the AF is the same reason we are employable across the spectrum.  The AF expects us to be officers, not pilots, and that gives us certain skills that a lot of people don't have.  Civilian employment can be great if you sell yourself as a leader (not going airlines), if fact, I bet you can make more money than an airline pilot on average if you take this approach.  Except Butters, he's a sellout.  

[BEEPBEEPIMINAJEEP]

3 hours ago, Heavywanabe said:

I think the young generation as a whole needs more aviation mentors. A lot of the pilots i know in the civilian world are second generation pilots or had other family in aviation, and i'm talking about the under 30 crowd. I think this is because from the outside looking in it seems like the hurdles are enormous, whether it be financial or just the lack direction for the proper steps to become successful. The company i work for has a entity with about 16 piston aircraft, we used to pay to have them cleaned once a month by a detail company. We decided to quit that and now pay different youth organizations to come out and clean airplanes every Sunday. The purpose of this is to get kids from every walk of life the opportunity to be around aviation, ask questions, and hopefully spark interest in the youth of the community. 95% of the youth today have never actually touched an aircraft in GA much less been on a ramp. 

 

Now i'm just waiting to enter UPT so I have zero idea of the culture of the AF pilot community yet, but I think that actually getting a slot has zero to do with race. If dudes have all the right scores and the personality I don't think it matters what race they are. In my opinion we need to get more people interested in actually wanting to be a pilot.

 

I was a beneficiary of a program similar to what you mentioned when I was young(er). My high school had a course that taught physics through aviation, which counted as a legit physics credit on the transcript. It was probably 25% actual physics (using the kinematic equations with aviation related problems) and 75% ground school. We even had a handful of computers set up as simulators with a yoke and throttle box (circa 2006) where we flew and demonstrated some stuff we learned for grades sometimes. It was taught by an older guy who had his CFI, lost his medical, but was still passionate about getting youth into aviation. He was a great mentor who advocated everything the aviation career had to offer. 

The best part about that class in high school was... there was another... The next year (my senior year), there was an elective class offered that went one of two routes: maintenance or pilot. If selected, students could attend this class at the local FBO at the airport down the street. The "class" was unsupervised, off-campus, but still had a looming threat that if you were caught not being there, you were dropped and failed.. it worked. The maintenance track basically involved shadowing a couple of A&P's who worked on the plethora of GA aircraft at the FBO. The pilot track had you paired with a CFI and it was your responsibility to get two grades; whatever grade you got on the PPL written was your 1st semester grade and the second semester grade was a 100 or 69 (pass/fail) on actually getting your PPL. I lucked out and had a young college dude as a CFI who was actively pursuing an Air Force career and another great mentor for how to get your foot in the door with military aviation. Having him as a CFI was a huge inspiration on my eventual decision to pursue a similar career. 

Without a doubt, that program was the number one reason I am where I am today awaiting UPT with a slot for the best airplane in the world. Exposure to aviation early on (especially the fact that nobody in my family or around me had an aviation background) and great mentorship was the key that propelled me into this career and I am beyond grateful that I was lucky enough to have been at the right place at the right time. I am unsure if that program still exists, or if there are any other programs like it, but it is programs like these that absolutely help attract youth to the aviation career. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by BEEPBEEPIMINAJEEP
grammar

[BashiChuni]

EAA young eagles is a great mentorship program

[HU&W]

5 hours ago, pawnman said:

The difference is that a pilot requires a degree to get started in the military.  So if you're a young kid from a poor background looking for cheap job training, pilot may not be in the cards.

I was that young kid from the poor background.  My parents had nothing to give me.  I had $70 in my bank account when I enlisted.  I completed my degree with TA during evenings on active duty.  It took a few extra years, but I'm a pilot with no significant non-mortgage debt.  It's definitely possible; you just have to strategically choose your sacrifices to obtain your goals.

[pawnman]

8 hours ago, HU&W said:

I was that young kid from the poor background.  My parents had nothing to give me.  I had $70 in my bank account when I enlisted.  I completed my degree with TA during evenings on active duty.  It took a few extra years, but I'm a pilot with no significant non-mortgage debt.  It's definitely possible; you just have to strategically choose your sacrifices to obtain your goals.

Oh, I'm not saying it's impossible for anyone.  I'm saying that statistically, if fewer minorities have a college degree, that will translate to fewer minorities being officers.  And with fewer minorities being officers, fewer will be pilots.

The only "minority" (51% of the population) demographic this doesn't apply to is women, who go to college and graduate at a higher rate than men in the US.  So there should be plenty of women who are eligible to join as officers and pilots...but they don't.  Then the question becomes "why not?"