The Next President is...

[nsplayr]

8 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

I am certainly not in favor of one party using hacked emails provided by a foreign government to influence an election, but thus far I have yet to see proof that happened.

President Trump, as a candidate, touted wikileaks regularly...141 times in the last month of the campaign alone. Here are some direct quotes:

• ""This just came out," Trump said. "WikiLeaks, I love WikiLeaks." - 10 Oct 16
• ""Another one came in today," Trump said. "This WikiLeaks is like a treasure trove." - 31 Oct 16
• "Boy, I love reading those WikiLeaks." - 4 Nov 16

Don Jr. was also in direct, private, personal contact with Julian Assange during the campaign.

Ok, so wikileaks released the hacked Podesta emails as well as some of the hacked DNC emails. But what is wikileaks? They're just some transparency-loving neutral party led by this kooky vampire holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London right?

From the DNI report "Background to “Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections”: The Analytic Process and Cyber Incident Attribution":

• "We assess with high confidence that Russian military intelligence (General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate or GRU) used the Guccifer 2.0 persona and DCLeaks.com to release US victim data obtained in cyber operations publicly and in exclusives to media outlets and relayed material to WikiLeaks." - page ii-iii
• "We assess with high confidence that the GRU relayed material it acquired from the DNC and senior Democratic officials to WikiLeaks. Moscow most likely chose WikiLeaks because of its self-proclaimed reputation for authenticity" - page 3
• "The Kremlin’s principal international propaganda outlet RT (formerly Russia Today) has actively collaborated with WikiLeaks. RT’s editor-in-chief visited WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London in August 2013, where they discussed renewing his broadcast contract with RT, according to Russian and Western media. Russian media subsequently announced that RT had become "the only Russian media company" to partner with WikiLeaks and had received access to "new leaks of secret information." - page 3
• "Russia used trolls as well as RT as part of its influence efforts to denigrate Secretary Clinton. This effort amplified stories on scandals about Secretary Clinton and the role of WikiLeaks in the election campaign." - page 4
• "We assess the 2016 influence campaign reflected the Kremlin’s recognition of the worldwide effects that mass disclosures of US Government and other private data—such as those conducted by WikiLeaks and others—have achieved in recent years, and their understanding of the value of orchestrating such disclosures to maximize the impact of compromising information." - page 5

So for those keeping score from the 2016 Presidential election, the hacker alias Guccifer 2.0 (which is the Russia GRU) hacks DNC and John Podesta's emails, then releases them via Wikileaks (which is paid directly by Russian government through RT contracts), then RT and paid Russian social media operators amplify negative messages about Clinton in english-language media including RT TV, twitter and facebook.

There is no question who hacked the DNC and John Podesta (Russian intelligence), there is no question what wikileaks is or who they were working for (Russian government), and there is no question that the U.S. media and Trump campaign were all too happy to amplify those email releases during the fall campaign, to the detriment of most other public policy issues.

As Americans, we need to stand up together and say NO to foreign intelligence services interfering with our elections. Voters need to reject foreign influence campaigns, and both parties need to be clear that using or touting or highlighting information about your opponent derived from criminal activity and released by foreign intelligence services is out of bounds. A big fear after 2016 was that this type of campaign could continue unabated in 2018 and beyond, and guess who's in power? The GOP controls Congress and the White House, and if the Russians want to cause maximum chaos and make the U.S. look weak, divided, and scandalous, who do you think are the next logical targets?

This is a good start from Sens. Rubio and Van Hollen...there is absolutely no reason why this issue has to be so brazenly partisan. The Russians and other adversaries want us divided and squabbling amongst ourselves instead of steeling our defenses for the next attack. Unfortunately this thread is a great example of that being "Mission Accomplished."

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by nsplayr

[Boomer6]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

This is a good start from Sens. Rubio and Van Hollen...there is absolutely no reason why this issue has to be so brazenly partisan. The Russians and other adversaries want us divided and squabbling amongst ourselves instead of steeling our defenses for the next attack. Unfortunately this thread is a great example of that being "Mission Accomplished."

 

 

You're one of the main contributors of that mission being accomplished as far as this thread goes. Posting  a WaPo article with ideas from Rubio doesn't exactly count as finding common ground. You stoke the liberal side of the fire more than anyone on here, thankfully you're slightly less antagonistic than Vertigo.

The conservative dudes on here aren't much better when it comes to squabbling back and forth. Some of those guys at least admit they're not a fan of the leadership. The politicians are the ones making the issue "brazenly partisan" and the majority of you are falling in line with your side of the aisle. If like minded individuals from a small community as this can't even get closed to agreeing on something what makes you think politicians are going to?

Get you're popcorn out.

[Azimuth]

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/does-nunes-memo-matter-sheldon-whitehouse

[drewpey]

12 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

It was not just Hillary hiring a company to collect oppo research, they made it up...flat out made up salacious details to add shock value.  Pissing on hookers...come on, you honestly think that was collected raw intel that added value to a fucking FISA warrant?  I guess you are ok with that as long as it furthers the liberal agenda.   We it comes to Don Jr and Emails from what I have seen all he was told was they had dirt on Hillary...I have yet to see where the Russians said we have the hacked emails.  Except for the news story that falsely said the Trump campaign got the DNC info BEFORE it was released to the public when in fact they got it AFTER.  I am certainly not in favor of one party using hacked emails provided by a foreign government to influence an election, but thus far I have yet to see proof that happened.  As a bit of a sidebar, we still don't know who actually got Hillary's emails...likely many folks did which leads me to ask why isn't she in jail?

Saying "pissing on hookers" shows you haven't even read the dossier.  There are lots of details in the dossier beyond the kompromat, and it's not very hard to see how some parts would have been corroborated by a separate investigation...particularly when you look at the details on Page and Manafort...given the FBI had been watching them for years, and likely had their own sources on what they were up to.

As for the emails...Jr didn't need or want the emails.  Why get your hands dirty when they are willing to do it for you?  It was public knowledge that she had been hacked previously and Russia was involved.  No one had to mention the elephant in the room.  Russia wanted the meeting to make clear what they wanted in exchange for the upcoming efforts...repeal of the Magnitsky Act (Orphans).

As for Hillary...I'm sure she appreciates your attention, but you should really stop letting her live rent-free in your head and accept that Trump won the election.

[ClearedHot]

This has become personal and pointless.

Talk amongst yourselves.

[gearhog]

i don't buy the peeing on hookers thing, either. ever try to piss with a boner? damn near impossible. whoever wrote that knows nothing about hookers or boners.

Edited February 9, 2018 by torqued

[nsplayr]

10 hours ago, drewpey said:

Saying "pissing on hookers" shows you haven't even read the dossier.

 

1 hour ago, torqued said:

i don't buy the peeing on hookers thing, either. ever try to piss with a boner? damn near impossible. whoever wrote that knows nothing about hookers or boners.

Seriously, a lot of y'all haven't even read the dossier have you? It's not that long (~35 pages) and has been out for over a year. If you care about this story one way or another it's worth at least reading just to understand the contours of the battlefield.

The relevant section reads, with all typos being original to the document:

"However, there were other aspects to TRUMP's engagement with the Russian authorities. One which had borne fruit for them was to exploit personal obsesslons and sexual perversion in order to obtain suitable 'kompromat' [compromising material] on him. According to Source D, where s/he had been present, (perverted) conduct in Moscow included hiring the presidential suite ofthe Ritz Carlton Hotel, where he knew President and OBAMA {whom he hated] had stayed on one ottherr orhcial trips to Russia, and deriling the bed where they had slept by employing a number of prostitutes to perform a 'golden showers' (urination) show in front of him. The hotel was known to be under FSE control with microphones and concealed cameras in all the main rooms to record anything they wanted to."

So FWIW, which may not be much, it's not "pissing on hookers," it's paying hookers to piss on the bed that Obama had previously slept in in the Moscow Ritz. You are correct sir that pissing with a boner is a challenging physics problem to overcome 

Also FWIW, all the most salacious stuff isn't the meat of the issue here. I honestly wish the dossier hadn't been published and people would focus on the obstruction case and other more probable issues rather than the very jusciest of the unverified allegations. Hey, if Moscow has kompromat of that level on POTUS, that's bad, but I'm not sure we're ever gonna find that out unless Putin decided to release any compromising evidence he might have. Since none of us are Putin, not sure it's relevant to speculate on whether or not that kompromat exists because if it does, there's nothing we can do about it, and if it doesn't then well problem solved, there is no problem.

If I'm was the prediction business, I would predict Mueller has a much stronger case on obstruction of justice than he would on Trump or Trump associates straight-up being agents of the Russian government based on kompromat or collusion or whatever else. Based on everything I've read I think some untoward things happened during the campaign between the Trump campaign and Russia, but there's not a super-clear legal area to prosecute that...not colluding with foreign powers to win an election is more of a norm than a law I guess.

Obstruction of justice however is more clear and has been the basis for the two modern impeachments of Presidents, and again based on everything I've read, I think there is a solid obstruction case to be made. It's been a weird case to digest mostly because it seems like the President doesn't quite understand what that crime entails and just says things out loud in public that would be scandalous if said in private and then uncovered later.

Nixon at least had enough political savvy to run a pretty tight ship in terms of the cover up for over a year before that obstruction case got blown open by one of the convicted burglars, James McChord. The Slow Burn podcast is worth checking out re: Watergate for those who are interested.

[gearhog]

29 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

So FWIW, which may not be much, it's not "pissing on hookers," it's paying hookers to piss on the bed that Obama had previously slept in in the Moscow Ritz. Y

Did Trump urinate on that bed? I just want to understand this: every time Obama's bed is micturated upon in the fair city of Moscow, Trump is expected to recompensate?

[lloyd christmas]

All of this is fucking embarrassing.  

The enemy is winning.  

We are better than this.  

[dmginc]

1 hour ago, lloyd christmas said:

All of this is ing embarrassing.  

The enemy is winning.  

We are better than this.  

Sucks because this is exactly what they wanted.  They have to be pissing themselves with excitement watching this whole thing unravel.

[drewpey]

1 hour ago, lloyd christmas said:

All of this is fucking embarrassing.  

The enemy is winning.  

We are better than this.  

I completely agree. We should all set aside our partisan differences and recognize the ample proof that Russia attacked our democracy and respond with appropriate action. Without doing so they have won.

[matmacwc]

I agree sort of, where is the ample proof?  If the media just repeats it 1000 times makes it true?  Look, I'm all about sticking it to the Russians (sts) even for no good reason, but blaming a DNC hack (spyware I believe it was) on hacking the whole election is a bit much.  She wasn't going to win.

[drewpey]

3 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

I agree sort of, where is the ample proof?  If the media just repeats it 1000 times makes it true?  Look, I'm all about sticking it to the Russians (sts) even for no good reason, but blaming a DNC hack (spyware I believe it was) on hacking the whole election is a bit much.  She wasn't going to win.

What proof do you want? I can't even find a reputable source that says they DIDN'T fuck with us in 2016. Republicans just want to say "eh, it happens...it wasn't that bad". Ask yourself: where do YOU draw that line? Do we wait for the entire population to lose faith in the voting system and the democratic process before we act? They will keep at it at every election until our elections are as rigged as theirs.

It's not about "her"; it's about US. 

[matmacwc]

Good proof, deflect to everyone and then assume It happened......again.

And yes, I would F with other countries elections if I could, in fact, big O screwed with Israel’s but apparently not well enough.

Edited February 10, 2018 by matmacwc

[17D_guy]

Odds on a memo getting leaked just went up...I guess the Democrats have to check with the FBI and DOJ before a memo goes out. Republicans... Not so much.

Makes it so partisan and petty when it could be one more step closer to over. But that wouldn't be reality TV enough for Donny-Boy.

[Azimuth]

3 hours ago, matmacwc said:

I agree sort of, where is the ample proof?  If the media just repeats it 1000 times makes it true?  Look, I'm all about sticking it to the Russians (sts) even for no good reason, but blaming a DNC hack (spyware I believe it was) on hacking the whole election is a bit much.  She wasn't going to win.

Newt Gingrich led a Republican House lynch mob to impeach Clinton over his relationship with Lewinsky.  Which wasn't what got Clinton impeached, that was the obstruction of justice and making a false official statement, and also led a Republican lynch mob against Gingrich the next year and forced him to resign.

So, if lying and obstructing justice for a blowie will get you impeached, lying and obstructing justice about a foreign adversary manipulating the U.S. Presidential election will probably get you impeached also.  And if history repeats itself from 1998-1999, Trump will be impeached for obstruction and/or making a false official statement.  It most likely, just like the two previous Presidents prior that were impeached, won't be approved by the Senate.  However, it'll cost the Republican seats in the House in the next election and Trump will ride out his term, but not run/or be elected for the next term.

Whenever Nunes is asked the question, "What was the White House's role in the House Intelligence Committee's Republican Report" he either dodges the question, or drops into carefully lawyered scripted statements that says "well the Republican's didn't draft any part of the report."

[di1630]

I made the mistake of turning on AFN news today deployed while MSNBC hardball with Chris Matthews was on.......geeezus....the BS and attacks I was hearing was 100% Aimed at getting dems riled up.

Conjecture on theory on top of emotional pining for outrage.

Really sad to watch but I urge people to check it out if you want to realize why the left is so batsh-t crazy about this stuff.

Got it, Russia tried to influence our election 2018 style using newer techniques but they’ve always tried to do the same in the past.

Their success comes in getting the left to act like a bunch of childish unAmerican , ungrateful victimized miscreants who won’t stop complaining until their butthurt for losing the 2016 election is acknowledged and atoned.

The left is fulfilling Russia’s ultimate goal of dividing/weakening America with their unrelenting whine fest about Trump.

[Steve C]

On 1/26/2018 at 11:33 PM, nsplayr said:

IMHO you’re putting a ton of bias into this assessment of the situation. And I keep up with Fox News somewhat, so I’m aware of the stories they are featuring. Just realize that this is one particular narrative of a process that is largely opaque by design and not necessarily the facts.

So long story short to answer your question: no. 

What I fear at this point is that Mueller will release the results of his investigation and only ~45% of people  will believe him depending on what he says. I would imagine that given one of the possible outcomes, you’re fully prepared to join the non-believers.

10% of that fear is that Mueller will clear the President of any wrongdoing (even though several of his associates have already plead guilty to various crimes), and liberals won’t believe it and will want POTUS strung up from the nearest tree anyways, which will put the country in a bad place. I am not one of those people but I know some.

90% of that fear is that Mueller will bring damning evidence along with charges and the right wing won’t believe him, the GOP Congress won’t back him, and he’ll be fired which will put the country in a very bad place.

I believe in Mueller’s integrity based on his incredibly sterling reputation as a long-serving, non-partisan public servant  and law enforcement official. I plan to believe the results of his investigation no matter the outcome (within reason, it’s not blind faith obviously).

I hope most folks out there can commit to the same so we can, as a nation, once again at least start to have a conversation based on a shared set of facts and values. This is an important test for whether or not that kind of shared worldview is even possible anymore, and unfortunately I’m not optimistic. 

The entire Russia collusion narrative has shown itself to be another corrupt clinton political operation.  Not surprised that die-hard statist are still all in, it's all they have.  

[17D_guy]

5 hours ago, di1630 said:

The left is fulfilling Russia’s ultimate goal of dividing/weakening America with their unrelenting whine fest about Trump.
 

So...no responsibility of conservatives for the current situation.  Ok.

[Azimuth]

And Trump won't approve the release of the Schiff memo.  You know, for classified info and such.  Guess the Nunes memo was immunized against the negative implications of declassification...

[brickhistory]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 4:39 AM, ClearedHot said:

This has become personal and pointless.

Talk amongst yourselves.

It's ok.

The NSA will tabs on you based upon a rumor they got from this forum.

I'd also be really meticulous with your taxes this year.

But we're fine with the many, many classified e-mails you sent to your home server, including SCI and above ones.

Worst case, an FBI agent drops by for a little chat.  Hope you remember everything you've ever said otherwise you'll be lying to a federal agent.

Apparently, some here and in the political world are ok with all of the above.

But will clutch their pearls and get the vapors when the current gang in power does shenanigans...

Edited February 10, 2018 by brickhistory

[drewpey]

9 hours ago, di1630 said:

I made the mistake of turning on AFN news today deployed while MSNBC hardball with Chris Matthews was on.......geeezus....the BS and attacks I was hearing was 100% Aimed at getting dems riled up.

Conjecture on theory on top of emotional pining for outrage.

Really sad to watch but I urge people to check it out if you want to realize why the left is so batsh-t crazy about this stuff.

Got it, Russia tried to influence our election 2018 style using newer techniques but they’ve always tried to do the same in the past.

Their success comes in getting the left to act like a bunch of childish unAmerican , ungrateful victimized miscreants who won’t stop complaining until their butthurt for losing the 2016 election is acknowledged and atoned.

The left is fulfilling Russia’s ultimate goal of dividing/weakening America with their unrelenting whine fest about Trump.
 

Word-for-word can be said for Fox News.  Anyone who gets their news from editorialized panel talk shows that try to condense complex situations into sound bytes is going to be horribly misinformed.

"They always try" is such a cop out.  Where is the Republican party of pre-2016?  What happened that made you fall in love with Russia?  Was it their invasion of Crimea?  Their involvement in Syria? Them violating North Korean Sanctions?  Meddling in our democracy? Harboring Edward Snowden?  Feeding propaganda to undermine the west through Wikileaks?  Violating nuclear treaties?  Please tell me so I can begin to wrap my feeble liberal mind around it.

I guess I should just learn to shrug off foreign interference in our democratic process to be more "American"...it's what the founding fathers would have wanted.

You guys are beyond hope.

[Vertigo]

Meanwhile a spending plan has been approved that'll cost us a trillion dollars in new debt. But don't worry Republicans have announced a plan to pretend to be fiscally conservative again the moment a Democrat takes office.

[HeloDude]

^^This.  Anyone who thinks the Dems or GOP cares about Liberty is a joke.  As I have said, politicians will be politicians and it's disappointing how many Americans would rather a big government decide what to do with their wealth and how they should live their lives.  Pick which state you want t to live in/who you want as your neighbors because when it all comes crumbling down it will be all you have.

[drewpey]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/russia-is-our-adversary/552962/