The Next President is...

[brabus]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:42 AM, Sua Sponte said:

Does the election system have voting fraud? Yes, it happens every election. Is it rampant enough to swing an election? Historically and statistically the data tells us no.

On 12/15/2020 at 4:38 PM, 17D_guy said:

Because it's not.

Well you guys took my simple statement about voter ID and ran 90 left off the tracks. I don’t think trump won, nor did I even remotely argue there was enough fraud to change the course of the election; you just made wild assumptions based off me arguing we should have voter ID requirements. Get this train back on the tracks - what is a legitimate reason for skipping voter ID, yet requiring it for many other things (arguably less important than voting)? I honestly can’t think of a single one. 
 

I guess it’s also totally not a big deal when finance fucks up $15k of your pay for 1.5 years or a violent offender is released from prison and kills someone a week later. Yeah, no point in trying to make the process better, let’s just let it ride. Too much effort otherwise. God I hope this shitty attitude is just your internet persona and not what you actually practice in real life.

On 12/16/2020 at 9:14 PM, Negatory said:

Yeah I mean, honestly, I don’t believe you. If you have pics or proof I’d like to see it.

I’m not sure you even graduated college, let’s see that proof big shot. Unbelievable dude. 

[Homestar]

2 hours ago, brabus said:

what is a legitimate reason for skipping voter ID

I agree with you generally, but I can also see the other side of the argument, which is: voting is more important than most everything else that requires ID so barriers to voting should be lower. In other words, you should have to meet a high bar to keep someone from casting a vote, and in some cases voter ID laws smell like Jim Crow. Do I agree? Not really, but I get what they’re saying. 

[drewpey]

If republicans were willing to make it automatic issuance, free, easy and quick to replace then I'd be more for it...but what will happen is they will underfund whatever departments give them so getting or replacing the ID will essentially be a poll tax on time(money) for largely democratic voters who will have to weigh getting food to the table or renewing their voter ID because they changed their haircut and are afraid of being turned back at the polls.

Many studies have shown that it will disenfranchise largely democratic voters and drive down overall voter participation.  How many is too many to disenfranchise for a problem we can't even prove exists on a significant scale (see Kobach Commission after the "rampant" voting fraud in 2016 per Trump).  You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist by creating more government involvement.  Everyone that can legally vote should vote, and we shouldn't be putting barriers to that.

Again I think for those of you who doubt our election system or think its super easy to scam should volunteer to work one.  It's not as easy as you'd think, and the employees it turns out take their job very seriously.

[Negatory]

3 hours ago, brabus said:

I’m not sure you even graduated college, let’s see that proof big shot. Unbelievable dude. 

I did some more research, and it turns out that you probably did get a ballot. A real one, so my bad. My original skepticism came from all the “ballots” that were thrown away or burned that turned out to be samples.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2622SZ

Also turns out it’s planned and normal and would require a proactive step from you or anyone else to commit voter fraud, so I still don’t see the issue.

EDIT: Also, you have to be a registered voter to get a ballot. What’s the problem here? Registered voters shouldn’t get a ballot unless they specifically request one? This isn’t like dems are sending ballots to illegal immigrants.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Negatory

[Kiloalpha]

This thread just needs to end until next election.

[jrizzell]

3 minutes ago, Kiloalpha said:

This thread just needs to end until next election.

Republicans need to move on from Trump and focus on how they’re going to attract new young voters and grow the party. The day he leaves office, Twitter is going to ban him, and he loses the most effective tool he has for promoting his message. I honestly feel like if the Senate goes D, we’re in for a unprecedented time in our nation. And Republicans need to have a productive counter narrative.

[Sua Sponte]

7 hours ago, brabus said:

Well you guys took my simple statement about voter ID and ran 90 left off the tracks. I don’t think trump won, nor did I even remotely argue there was enough fraud to change the course of the election; you just made wild assumptions based off me arguing we should have voter ID requirements. Get this train back on the tracks - what is a legitimate reason for skipping voter ID, yet requiring it for many other things (arguably less important than voting)? I honestly can’t think of a single one. 
 

I guess it’s also totally not a big deal when finance fucks up $15k of your pay for 1.5 years or a violent offender is released from prison and kills someone a week later. Yeah, no point in trying to make the process better, let’s just let it ride. Too much effort otherwise. God I hope this shitty attitude is just your internet persona and not what you actually practice in real life.

I’m not sure you even graduated college, let’s see that proof big shot. Unbelievable dude. 

When you say Voter ID, are you meaning I have to show my ID every time I vote? Or I can bring in a bill showing my address? Because 35 states have Voter ID laws, all varying in degree of what proof you have to provide to vote. 

[M2]

Funny how all those alleging election tampering in 2016 suddenly claim it couldn't have happened in 2020!

Had Trump won, you can bet your last dollar the Democrats would be screaming the same tune when Hillary lost.

Our electoral process has some major issues.  Denying that is simply ignoring facts.  How anyone can have total and blind faith in it after this past November is beyond me...

[pawnman]

3 minutes ago, M2 said:

Funny how all those alleging election tampering in 2016 suddenly claim it couldn't have happened in 2020!

Had Trump won, you can bet your last dollar the Democrats would be screaming the same tune when Hillary lost.

Our electoral process has some major issues.  Denying that is simply ignoring facts.  How anyone can have total and blind faith in it after this past November is beyond me...

Funny how those saying the 2016 elections were fair and honest are now absolutely certain they were tampered with...even though Trump's own people have said they don't see evidence of fraud that would have changed the outcome.

It's time to call it a day, prep for the midterms in 2022, and for the love of God, find a better candidate than the tweeter-in-chief for 2024.

[Day Man]

the first 2 pages of this thread are worth a look...

[Seadogs]

Trump ain't going nowhere. Burn this shit to the ground.

[Sua Sponte]

1 hour ago, M2 said:

Funny how all those alleging election tampering in 2016 suddenly claim it couldn't have happened in 2020!

Had Trump won, you can bet your last dollar the Democrats would be screaming the same tune when Hillary lost.

Our electoral process has some major issues.  Denying that is simply ignoring facts.  How anyone can have total and blind faith in it after this past November is beyond me...

Well, they only have issues in the states Trump lost, right? You can bet your last dollar Republicans would be singing the same song about how fair the electoral process is had Trump won. 

[M2]

3 hours ago, Sua Sponte said:

Well, they only have issues in the states Trump lost, right? You can bet your last dollar Republicans would be singing the same song about how fair the electoral process is had Trump won. 

Recount them all, I say.  I am not sure it would make any difference other than instill a little more faith in a system everyone is doubting...

As Rufus Edward Miles--who served as an assistant secretary to Presidents Dwight D. Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, and Lyndon B. Johnson--once aptly observed (which is now known as Miles' Law), "Where you stand depends on where you sit."

[arg]

9 hours ago, drewpey said:

If republicans were willing to make it automatic issuance, free, easy and quick to replace then I'd be more for it...but what will happen is they will underfund whatever departments give them so getting or replacing the ID will essentially be a poll tax on time(money) for largely democratic voters who will have to weigh getting food to the table or renewing their voter ID because they changed their haircut and are afraid of being turned back at the polls.

Many studies have shown that it will disenfranchise largely democratic voters and drive down overall voter participation.  How many is too many to disenfranchise for a problem we can't even prove exists on a significant scale (see Kobach Commission after the "rampant" voting fraud in 2016 per Trump).  You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist by creating more government involvement.  Everyone that can legally vote should vote, and we shouldn't be putting barriers to that.

Again I think for those of you who doubt our election system or think its super easy to scam should volunteer to work one.  It's not as easy as you'd think, and the employees it turns out take their job very seriously.

Yeah man, those dumb poor black folk caint get themselves no ID. And you said "largely democratic" who can't get food on the table if they have to get an ID?

[Homestar]

2 hours ago, M2 said:

everyone is doubting.

That’s the thing tho. Not everyone is doubting. Not even a majority is doubting. 

[drewpey]

3 hours ago, arg said:

Yeah man, those dumb poor black folk caint get themselves no ID. And you said "largely democratic" who can't get food on the table if they have to get an ID?

This issue is largely tied to poverty and those of all races who cannot afford the time cost involved with sitting at a DMV or equivalent service for a few hours and being told they have to come back with additional paperwork, etc. when they are already working two jobs to make ends meet.  Minorities are disproportionately affected by poverty, but it's still low effort with the race baiting.

[arg]

4 minutes ago, drewpey said:

This issue is largely tied to poverty and those of all races who cannot afford the time cost involved with sitting at a DMV or equivalent service for a few hours and being told they have to come back with additional paperwork, etc. when they are already working two jobs to make ends meet.  Minorities are disproportionately affected by poverty, but it's still low effort with the race baiting.

If they are "already working two jobs" don't you think they already have an ID? I've had a few people here, in probably the poorest state in the US, that I hired do some work on my small farm that you would consider poverty level folks. They all drove here, so unless they were driving without a licence they had ID. Many states offer no cost IDs, of course NM is not one of them.

[lloyd christmas]

5 hours ago, drewpey said:

This issue is largely tied to poverty and those of all races who cannot afford the time cost involved with sitting at a DMV or equivalent service for a few hours and being told they have to come back with additional paperwork, etc. when they are already working two jobs to make ends meet.  Minorities are disproportionately affected by poverty, but it's still low effort with the race baiting.

The soft bigotry of low expectations.   

[brabus]

To the ID discussion:

 All 50 states should require a government issued, picture ID to vote (DL, general state ID, Concealed Weapons Permit, etc.) If we started this today, everyone who doesn’t currently possess an ID has 3.5 years to get one prior to voting in 2024. Hell, even allow 14 yr olds to get state IDs that don’t expire for 5 years, then they’re not prevented from voting on their 18th birthday if they don’t get a DL from 16-18 yr old. If a person, regardless of their life situation, can’t make that happen, then they simply don’t care/put much importance on voting.
 

When voting, you should have to show this ID and be checked against the registered voter list. Only 6 states currently meet this. I shouldn’t be able to vote simply by walking up to the table and telling you my name and address, with no photo ID (as you currently can do in 30 states + DC).

Absentee voting still requires the same things except you obviously can’t show the ID in person, so at min require signature verification (compare gov ID signature with affidavit signature).  

Edited December 19, 2020 by brabus

[jazzdude]

BLUF, requiring voter IDs doesn't fully solve the problem, or may not even address the problem if voting isn't done in person.

How do you verify the identity and eligibility of an absentee/mail in voter? Or a military voter voting from overseas? They can't show ID at the time of voting.

How often does a person's identity and eligibility need to be verified? For the eligibility piece, I'm primarily focused on where a person lives to establish what district they are in, though stopping felons who lost their right to vote is important. Assuming citizenship is verified on initial voter registration some way.

If an in person verification is required on a periodic basis, how do you handle someone that can't make the verification? For example, out of state military members.

IDs can be faked, which means polling places can't just visually check an ID, they'd need a scanning system/database that verifies the ID, which drives up the cost and infrastructure for elections. Not a showstopper, but something that has to be planned for (who funds and at what level of government?)

What is an acceptable voter ID? In state driver's licence/identify card with current address only? Temporary issue drivers license showing current address? Does a military ID or US passport suffice (doesn't show eligible address)? If I lose my ID, can I still get a provisional ballot (best case is accidental loss, worst case is stolen by someone wanting to prevent me from voting)?

2 factor authentication seems to be the standard now for anything that touches the internet, so an ID would need to be paired with another authentication, likely a PIN. And the infrastructure to maintain authentication and user support.

Another idea would be to use biometrics to verify identity, but that opens up debate on government collection on biometrics.

[brabus]

All great questions/ideas - let’s act on this instead of accepting the status quo. 

[jazzdude]

 All 50 states should require a government issued, picture ID to vote (DL, general state ID, Concealed Weapons Permit, etc.) If we started this today, everyone who doesn’t currently possess an ID has 3.5 years to get one prior to voting in 2024.

Your timeline is wrong. Best case is about 1.5 years for the next representative race. And that ignores any local ballots before then.

There's more to it than just federal presidential elections, though that gets the most attention.

A lot of the arguments for voter ID centers around citizenship, which drives the need for an ID that validates citizenship, i.e a RealID license/identity card.

Plus, it took what, like 10 years or so to transition to RealID for air travel, which is arguably a luxury.

And like you mentioned, it doesn't solve mail in vote identity verification.

[jazzdude]

All great questions/ideas - let’s act on this instead of accepting the status quo. 

Absolutely agree. Something needs to be done, but it requires investment (and maintaining follow-on support) in our voting infrastructure, and we as a nation don't like to maintain infrastructure.

This should be a bipartisan effort

[brabus]

Just now, jazzdude said:

 

 

Your timeline is wrong. Best case is about 1.5 years for the next representative race. And that ignores any local ballots before then.

There's more to it than just federal presidential elections, though that gets the most attention.

A lot of the arguments for voter ID centers around citizenship, which drives the need for an ID that validates citizenship, i.e a RealID license/identity card.

Plus, it took what, like 10 years or so to transition to RealID for air travel, which is arguably a luxury.

And like you mentioned, it doesn't solve mail in vote identity verification.

 

I was using the presidential as a leading example, I’m well aware of the voting cycle for lower level elections. The big problem is all of these “what about...” questions are not valid arguments against ID, but I do agree they are considerations to be taken into account when developing voter requirements. 
 

My best initial hack on absentee is signature verification, and I think for now that is sufficient (yeah signatures can be forged, but it’s a very unlikely situation). 

[jazzdude]

I was using the presidential as a leading example, I’m well aware of the voting cycle for lower level elections. The big problem is all of these “what about...” questions are not valid arguments against ID, but I do agree they are considerations to be taken into account when developing voter requirements. 
 
My best initial hack on absentee is signature verification, and I think for now that is sufficient (yeah signatures can be forged, but it’s a very unlikely situation). 

Yeah, signature verification is probably well that can be done for absentee. My state allows you to download a ballot to mail in, and has a code on the ballot that I assumes serializes/identifies that ballot as unique, and helps block anyone from attempting to vote multiple times.

Moving towards electronic voting will eventually need to happen, and then you can add things like chip and PIN (or at least PIN) identify verification.