The Next President is...

[Pooter]

2 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Look guys, we’re not perfect. In fact, we’ve been pretty consistently far from it. Welcome to the human world. But despite our shortcomings, this country has, since its inception been the prime example of a nation made by the people, for the people. I’m tempted to lay into some of you for suggesting that we are no different or better than some third rate, corruption ridden banana republic. But I won’t. I won’t because I don’t think any of you really believe that. People don’t put on a uniform and serve with the distinction that differentiates the American serviceman from every other fighting man in the world unless they believe that their country is, in fact, exceptional. No American should accept the shitshow we’re witnessing today as just some expression of the new normal. It’s not normal as long as we refuse to accept it as such. 

Amen. The problem is that people have their political views inextricably tied to their identity and value as a person. This is where the whataboutism and equivocating and excuses come from. When your identity is wrapped up in politics it's more comfortable to keep doing that than admit you were wrong. 

[Kiloalpha]

2 minutes ago, Prozac said:

Look guys, we’re not perfect. In fact, we’ve been pretty consistently far from it. Welcome to the human world. But despite our shortcomings, this country has, since its inception been the prime example of a nation made by the people, for the people. I’m tempted to lay into some of you for suggesting that we are no different or better than some third rate, corruption ridden banana republic. But I won’t. I won’t because I don’t think any of you really believe that. People don’t put on a uniform and serve with the distinction that differentiates the American serviceman from every other fighting man in the world unless they believe that their country is, in fact, exceptional. No American should accept the shitshow we’re witnessing today as just some expression of the new normal. It’s not normal as long as we refuse to accept it as such. 

I’m not saying it should be accepted as normal, and even after today I think this country is the best place on the earth. Bar none.

Having a country as free as ours comes with risks. Shit like this is one of them. This isn’t the first time our country has navigated troubled waters, and it won’t be the last.

[SocialD]

Just woke up on the other side of the world and heard "some people did something..."  The internets are still cooking, so the lights must still be on.  Are riots and protests a bad thing now?  

[Pooter]

3 minutes ago, SocialD said:

Just woke up on the other side of the world and heard "some people did something..."  The internets are still cooking, so the lights must still be on.  Are riots and protests a bad thing now?  

When they're incited by completely false and unconstitutional claims by a sitting president.. yes.

 

and your tone might not be so flippant after you realize that the right just lost all of their power for at least the next two years and all of their credibility for the next decade. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Pooter

[SocialD]

47 minutes ago, Pooter said:

When they're incited by completely false and unconstitutional claims by a sitting president.. yes.

 

and your tone might not be so flippant after you realize that the right just lost all of their power for at least the next two years and all of their credibility for the next decade. 

 

Ha, you assume that I care that the right has all the power.  That said, I don't believe either party has any credibility to actually lose, so that helps keep me flippant.  The far ends of both parties are complete clown acts right now.  

Edited January 7, 2021 by SocialD

[pawnman]

52 minutes ago, Pooter said:

When they're incited by completely false and unconstitutional claims by a sitting president.. yes.

 

and your tone might not be so flippant after you realize that the right just lost all of their power for at least the next two years and all of their credibility for the next decade. 

They didn't have much credibility left anyway.

[17D_guy]

So...new thread on the 20th?

[Pooter]

45 minutes ago, SocialD said:

 

Ha, you assume that I care that the right has all the power.  That said, I don't believe either party has any credibility to actually lose, so that helps keep me flippant.  The far ends of both parties are complete clown acts right now.  

Nihilism is one strategy I suppose. 

[Sua Sponte]

[Pooter]

16 minutes ago, joe1234 said:

I always come to view this thread when political stuff happens to see what the other side thinks for entertainment. I mean, one would think that a group of armed protestors storming the Capital of the United States while it was literally in session to declare a winner of an election and complete a peaceful transfer of power, literally THE most defining characteristic of a functioning democratic republic, would have people around here a little more outraged.

But honestly it's like this grudging feeble admittance that it's a bad thing and a bunch of "ok yeah fine but hey what about that time all those BLM protests broke windows at department stores..." And these are supposed educated military officers with a vested interest in defending the Constitution talking like this, not your normal rank and file idiot.

Think about that.

The ing capital building of the United States.

I feel like America's jumped the shark at this point.

I feel the exact same way. If left wing protesters had done this every trumper in the military would be screaming to high heaven about political norms and institutions and the constitution and what have you. Just goes to show how vulnerable people are to cults of personality.   
 

I'm no fan of the left and I think they continue to trend in a very damaging direction, but as of tonight there is only one political party whose supporters have invaded the capitol and endangered our duly elected officials conducting the people's business. 

[Sua Sponte]

You mean the Trumper’s here who were irate over sport players kneeling for the national anthem, but are now downplaying storming the U.S. Capitol, that costed a USAF veteran her life? Or currently trying to play the whataboutism game? Cult.

[jazzdude]

I think things haven't been good in a country for a while, but it's all just been simmering on the back burner until recently, and now it's all boiling over. There seems to be underlying problems in our society that we have not been addressing (or willing to acknowledge), and we as a society/country are starting to pay that price and see these issues boil over into dramatic events. We've had a significant recession, fairly stagnate wages despite increased productivity, race tensions, and increasing (personal) debts and costs to name a few. I'm not looking to point fingers, but we as a country need to figure out how to address these issues moving forward.

People aren't happy, they're stressed, and they perceive (rightly or wrongly) that they are being persecuted. That's on both sides. And this is leading to protests, riots, and violence. And this feeling isn't just limited to the left or right, Republicans or Democrats. The two biggest examples being the BLM protests, and now the far-right riots/storming the Capitol. Fundamentally, those two very different events have the same underlying issue-people aren't happy with their situation.

Happy/content people likely won't turn to violence to effect change, especially if they feel they have a good situation. But if they feel like they are in a bad situation, or a coming change might change their situation for the worse, they may put up with it for a while, but if they can't improve their situation, they may turn to more extreme measures.

Then again, there are also people who just want to see the world burn.

Unfortunately, it seems Trump has taken advantage of the far-right (though maybe they aren't as far right as people say) and their fears, and have encouraged actions that seems to just fed his ego and personal aims (inflict pain on those who disagree with him). Maybe that's acceptable/tolerated in the business world, but it's not in government. And disappointingly, he also send to be someone who doesn't mind sitting back and watching the world burn.

[LimaLowdown]

3 hours ago, Negatory said:

What's tragic is that military officers on this forum can't see that.

Implying most people on here are actually officers and not just trying to join the guard because they lost their job as FO making $20k a year

[dream big]

4 hours ago, Negatory said:

I literally remember this conversation. When you personally liked the post below back in July, it was probably a misclick, right?

 

I’m impressed you took the time to find that.  Except I don’t consider the idiots storming the Capitol conservatives.  True conservatives value rule of law and order, neither of which was embodied today.  Goes back to my previous point that that the extremes don’t define the majority. So I fail to see your point.

[slackline]

9 minutes ago, dream big said:

I’m impressed you took the time to find that.  Except I don’t consider the idiots storming the Capitol conservatives.  True conservatives value rule of law and order, neither of which was embodied today.  Goes back to my previous point that that the extremes don’t define the majority. So I fail to see your point.

Oh, they don't fit your definition of conservative, so you don't own them.  Some. Of those people were radicals, and a lot of them were normal conservatives whipped up they their commander, a man they saw as their ruler, not President. A man who's been lying to them since before the election, setting the scene for what happened today!  Pathetic!

People on here are rightly calling it. Furious at protests/riots this summer, but begrudgingly admitting that what happened today is bad. This is deeply disappointing.

 

Also, not just a small group in DC.  State capitol buildings experienced the same things. That sounds like a coup.  How some of you still aren't willing to admit this was a horrible attack on democracy is beyond me.

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/6/22217736/state-capitol-stop-the-steal-protests-rallies

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by slackline

[ViperMan]

2 minutes ago, slackline said:

Oh, they don't fit your definition of conservative, so you don't own them.

People on here are rightly calling it. Furious at protests/riots this summer, but begrudgingly admitting that what happened today is bad. This is deeply disappointing.

Also, not just a small group in DC.  State capitol buildings experienced the same things. That sounds like a coup.  How some of you still aren't willing to admit this was a horrible attack on democracy is beyond me.

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/6/22217736/state-capitol-stop-the-steal-protests-rallies

Ehh. All this discussion of a coup attempt is gross overreaction, fear mongering, and ultimately, politicking. And yes, I do mean gross. Are people on this board seriously concerned that that small bunch represented an actual threat to the rule of this country? If so, how close did they come? If so, how close did you come to falling into lock step with your new rulers wearing MAGA hats and overalls? What New Yorker was going to wake up to the Times and just go "hmm, ok, well I guess this is what we got."

Any real coup has an authentic chance of co-opting large swaths of a previous government. Today was not that. Sorry, but it just wasn't. What it is, is an opportunity for political money-making. Wake me up on the 20th if he doesn't leave office and there are armed government employees refusing to depart the White House. Until then/that happens, this is just more ugly game-playing.

[slackline]

2 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

Ehh. All this discussion of a coup attempt is gross overreaction, fear mongering, and ultimately, politicking. And yes, I do mean gross. Are people on this board seriously concerned that that small bunch represented an actual threat to the rule of this country? If so, how close did they come? If so, how close did you come to falling into lock step with your new rulers wearing MAGA hats and overalls? What New Yorker was going to wake up to the Times and just go "hmm, ok, well I guess this is what we got."

Any real coup has an authentic chance of co-opting large swaths of a previous government. Today was not that. Sorry, but it just wasn't. What it is, is an opportunity for political money-making. Wake me up on the 20th if he doesn't leave office and there are armed government employees refusing to depart the White House. Until then/that happens, this is just more ugly game-playing.

I'll admit coup is strong. But what term would you like to use?  In your book a coup is only real if there is a legitimate shot at it working? Doesn't matter if the people who were doing it took it seriously, put Trump flags up instead of the American flag, took everything Trump said seriously?  They would attack right now if Trump called for it.  It would get crushed immediately, and have zero shot at working.  Doesn't change that this is the first time since the Brits attacked that our Capitol has seen any action. Doesn't change that this was a disgusting attack on our way of life. That's not nothing.

Your ambivalent attitude about it is gross, and yes, I said gross.  You'd be pissed if this happened due to a social justice action...

[ViperMan]

1 minute ago, slackline said:

I'll admit coup is strong. But what term would you like to use?  In your book a coup is only real if there is a legitimate shot at it working? Doesn't matter if the people who were doing it took it seriously, put Trump flags up instead of the American flag, took everything Trump said seriously?  They would attack right now if Trump called for it.  It would get crushed immediately, and have zero shot at working.  Doesn't change that this is the first time since the Brits attacked that our Capitol has seen any action. Doesn't change that this was a disgusting attack on our way of life. That's not nothing.

Your ambivalent attitude about it is gross, and yes, I said gross.  You'd be pissed if this happened due to a social justice action...

If we're having a national dialogue about a coup - defined by our major sources of news and other national leaders (senators) calling it one - then yes, there needs to have been a legitimate threat to our government/way of life. In our case however, it represents an opportunity for interested parties to cast it in a suitable way for future maneuvering. There was no danger to our way of life displayed today. When it's put forth in such hyperbolic terms, it further erodes trust in our institutions. In the last few years I have seen frighteningly few mature responses from nearly anyone in government.

That our Capitol saw action is disheartening and shameful, and no one said I'm not pissed. I'm as pissed as I was this summer. Why I may come off as ambivalent at this point, is that this is one additional piece of the puzzle that's been coming together for years. Yeah, I guess if I viewed it in isolation it might piss me off in a more acute manner. But today wasn't 9/11 and it wasn't December 7th. And while my attitude may be gross to you on this message board, it's not having a societal effect on our national consciousness and making further civil discourse even more difficult in the same way our national leaders and news media are.

[jazzdude]

Are people on this board seriously concerned that that small bunch represented an actual threat to the rule of this country? If so, how close did they come?

While the obvious concern that our Capitol building has been overrun is bad, I think the concern goes much further.

Today we lost physical security of the Capitol building while Congress was conducting one of their most fundamental duties-certifying the election for president. Were explosives or traps left behind to target political opponents? I'm sure this is also a counterintelligence nightmare as well. Were recording devices left behind? Were computers and networks compromised (pictures were in the news of unlocked computer screens)? Access to classified? Was everyone rioting disgruntled Trump supporters, or is it possible foreign actors participated and took advantage of the situation?

So maybe it wasn't a coup attempt, but that doesn't mean severe damage wasn't done to our government, much less to our image to the rest of the world. And that image (which I posit truly began in WW2) has been important in our foreign policy, as it's given us the moral ground (as a champion of democracy) in the past to push our agenda and advance our interests. And this loss to our world image comes at a time when China and Russia are trying to expand their influence in the world. No matter how well our military fights, if we lose our legitimacy for conducting our operations, we've lost the war.

[Pooter]

@ViperMan the capitol "seeing some action" from a few nut jobs isn't the problem. Of course that was never going to go anywhere. 

The problem is those nut jobs were incited by a sitting president who has spewed falsehoods about an election he lost for over two months now. That is the concern. Over half of the republicans in the house opposed certifying the verified election results from Arizona earlier tonight based on absolutely no evidence. That is the coup attempt that could actually matter  

You want to talk about eroding trust in institutions? How about a sitting president lobbing unsubstantiated claims on Twitter since nov 3rd that have been thrown out by courts at literally every level of government.. including by his own nominees. And he just keeps spewing the crap anyway. 
 

In the long run, do I really think this is going to rip the country apart? No. But it will rip the Republican Party apart. So to you mealy mouthed trump-adjacent right wingers who just kindof tolerated his behavior: congrats. Have fun not having a leg to stand on for the next 5-10 years. It takes a lot to be crazier than today's Democrat party but you guys managed it. 
 

Last thing I'll say is I think today was a blessing in disguise. Only one person was killed which is a borderline miracle, especially since it was one of the belligerents and not someone in the capitol just trying to do their job. This episode exposed some serious security problems and the hot wash from this will help serve to beef up security for whatever lunacy trump tries to incite on the 20th. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Pooter

[ViperMan]

20 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

While the obvious concern that our Capitol building has been overrun is bad, I think the concern goes much further.

Today we lost physical security of the Capitol building while Congress was conducting one of their most fundamental duties-certifying the election for president. Were explosives or traps left behind to target political opponents? I'm sure this is also a counterintelligence nightmare as well. Were recording devices left behind? Were computers and networks compromised (pictures were in the news of unlocked computer screens)? Access to classified? Was everyone rioting disgruntled Trump supporters, or is it possible foreign actors participated and took advantage of the situation?

So maybe it wasn't a coup attempt, but that doesn't mean severe damage wasn't done to our government, much less to our image to the rest of the world. And that image (which I posit truly began in WW2) has been important in our foreign policy, as it's given us the moral ground (as a champion of democracy) in the past to push our agenda and advance our interests. And this loss to our world image comes at a time when China and Russia are trying to expand their influence in the world. No matter how well our military fights, if we lose our legitimacy for conducting our operations, we've lost the war.

I agree 100%, and that's a topic worth engaging on. Personally, I think it's a tactical/operational/strategic failure of whatever government agency is responsible for protecting the Capitol. Where were the fire hoses? Non-lethal crowd control measures? Hundreds or thousands of National Guard troops. It's not like we didn't know this thing was coming. There was no good way to slowly escalate the use of force, so as soon as a breach happened they had to use lethal force. I had heard of the event even though I'm fairly disengaged so no doubt it was on everyone's radar.

I'm also hugely concerned about China/Russia/Iran, but am also worried that even outside of external threat actors, we have our own internal struggles that remain.

[FLEA]

I honestly think a lot of you guys are all missing the point. Its particularly disgusting that far right wing Republicans did this, and some people here are backing this up. I will consent there is quite a bit of overreaction from the left. However, nothing really forgives the trespass on our institution this is. There was a group of people that upended one of though most important and sacred establishments of our country, democracy. 

To those of you on the left, equally shame on you. You revel in this like its some sort of victory. You cheer at the sight of your perceived enemies, who are actually your countrymen, collapsing under fears that their way of life is under threat. This is absolutely not the time to approach the situation with a smug "I told you so." The left is just as much complicit for this event as the right. 

Until people start turning inward and asking hard questions of themselves, this country is going to get no better. I'm honestly sick today. I woke up this morning and this was the worst news I could have read. I don't even want to go to work today. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by FLEA

[ViperMan]

44 minutes ago, Pooter said:

@ViperMan the capitol "seeing some action" from a few nut jobs isn't the problem. Of course that was never going to go anywhere. 

The problem is those nut jobs were incited by a sitting president who has spewed falsehoods about an election he lost for over two months now. That is the concern. Over half of the republicans in the house opposed certifying the verified election results from Arizona earlier tonight based on absolutely no evidence. That is the coup attempt that could actually matter  

You want to talk about eroding trust in institutions? How about a sitting president lobbing unsubstantiated claims on Twitter since nov 3rd that have been thrown out by courts at literally every level of government.. including by his own nominees. And he just keeps spewing the crap anyway. 
...

I'm opening "what-a-bouts" for this post.

Does no one remember four short years ago when there was a concerted effort to get faithless electors to "subvert democracy" and "vote their conscience"? WTH does everyone think would have happened four years ago had that effort succeeded? Surely it would have been a peaceful transition when faithless electors chose a different president. I'm sure that wouldn't have disenfranchised large swaths of our nation.

No, it wasn't endorsed by the sitting President, but why am I not surprised? Why does this just seem to 'fit' in with the rest of the other BS that's been going on?

And again, the 'coup' talk is disingenuous. Where is the force that is going to back-up any of this? Honestly it's disheartening to think that so many of my colleagues harbor an actual concern that this threatened our way of life, because it implies you think that the military at large would fall in line with blindly carrying out orders from Trump. Frankly, I trust everyone I work with way more than that. I feel like I'm the guy down range getting bitched at by chiefs for wearing the "CTFO" morale patch. 

[DosXX]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

And again, the 'coup' talk is disingenuous. Where is the force that is going to back-up any of this? Honestly it's disheartening to think that so many of my colleagues harbor an actual concern that this threatened our way of life, because it implies you think that the military at large would fall in line with blindly carrying out orders from Trump.

Your characterization of the argument is disingenuous. Nobody here believes Trump is going to attempt, much less succeed, at using the military to attempt a coup. Only person who even used that word on here for the events that transpired today admitted it was too strong to use.

This is about the extensive and generational damage Trump's rhetoric continues to have on our institutions via his supporters, and about the very real danger it will pose when millions continue to believe there is a deep state conspiracy that removed Trump, not to mention the damage our adversaries will take advantage of. The 'force' to be cautious with here is not the military, it's tens of thousands of armed Americans rallied under cries of 1776 convinced by a vile nihilism that everything is corrupted. Of course it remains highly unlikely that all will decide to enact violence, but even the smallest percentage deciding to revolt is a credible danger to the lives of many. The voices are there and they are real and being heard. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by DosXX

[brabus]

15 hours ago, Negatory said:

On another note, doesn't look like your guys' guesses about billionaire philanthropy were based very much in reality.

https://observer.com/2021/01/billionaires-philanthropy-record-low-2020-bezos-elon-musk/

BUT JEFF BEZOS MAX A TAX-DEDUCTIBLE DONATION OF $10B TO THE... Bezos Fund.

Let’s start with your original comment that generated a reply: “what if they only made $25B? What if only $25M?” Once again your opinion-driven math vs. actual math isn’t based in reality, per the example I gave...she sure as shit isn’t donating $9B if she only makes $25M; my 5 year old can do that math. And if she’s making $25B, then doubtful she’s donating 36% of her income that year (and her net worth would be less overall, more reason she wouldn’t donate as much). In fact, your article talks about how huge it was for bezos to pledge 10% of his wealth (at the time he did).

Go ahead, show me “your reality” where a Billionaire has taken a 50% income /worth cut and then followed up with the same multi-billion $ donations after the fact, that matched previous donations before the 50% cut. Oh and also their loss didn’t impact companies, employees, etc.

Edited January 7, 2021 by brabus