The Next President is...

[17D_guy]

This was a WILD ride -

https://www.axios.com/trump-oval-office-meeting-sidney-powell-a8e1e466-2e42-42d0-9cf1-26eb267f8723.html

I don't know how much of it is true.  It was echoed in the other news outlets.

Apparently there's a whole series, and podcasts.
https://www.axios.com/off-the-rails-episodes-cf6da824-83ac-45a6-a33c-ed8b00094e39.html

 

Want to be clear, I'm posting this for entertainment purposes only.  😆

Edited February 4, 2021 by 17D_guy

[Swamp Yankee]

2 hours ago, 17D_guy said:

This was a WILD ride -

https://www.axios.com/trump-oval-office-meeting-sidney-powell-a8e1e466-2e42-42d0-9cf1-26eb267f8723.html

I don't know how much of it is true.  It was echoed in the other news outlets.

Apparently there's a whole series, and podcasts.
https://www.axios.com/off-the-rails-episodes-cf6da824-83ac-45a6-a33c-ed8b00094e39.html

Catching up here. The reason for my Biden vote:  If I exhibited 25% of Trump's behaviors I'd be fired, divorced, and on trial.  And that's how it should be.  Character matters. That's what any decent parent works hard to teach their kids.  It certainly mattered to many conservatives when Clinton got a BJ in the White House and fibbed about it.  

Most of Trump's purported accomplishments aren't. I mentioned previously that the slopes of the major stock indices have been relatively consistent since 2011.  Job creation the last three years of Obama was higher (8.1m) than the first three years of Trump (6.7m - and that's NOT including the pandemic, thus giving Trump the benefit of the doubt).  Income growth was lower as well.  GDP growth (again not including the pandemic) averaged 2.4% under Obama and 2.5% under Trump.  Trump did not save us from the 'terrible Obama economy'.   The numbers are clear, yet a significant portion of the right still believes Trump's rhetoric. 

Forbes, hardly a liberal publication, provided a nice summary: 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2020/02/19/no-president-trump-obamas-economic-recovery-was-not-a-con-job/?sh=54dcc16b5e62

SCOTUS picks were not an accomplishment showcasing deft leadership.  Openings occurred and were filled by candidates that reflected the administration's priorities.  Same as it ever was.  

A linear regression shows that crime has been steadily decreasing for decades.  There was not a surge under Obama nor an atypical improvement with Trump.  

Don't get me started on the "Jesus gave us Trump" shtick.  

I do acknowledge that African-American unemployment dropped to historic lows under Trump, and that is a good thing.  However, I suggest speaking to members of that community regarding their overall opinions about the last four years. 

That said, I am by no means an enthusiastic Biden supporter.  This election was a reset to politics as usual.  Given the dumpster fire / shit show / shenangians / tomfoolery / fiasco / calamity / goat rope over the last four years, that is a good thing for now.  We will get some relative stability.  I'm confident that Biden supporters, even the extreme factions, will not attempt to stop government by force after being incited by lies.  So there's that. 

 I am still optimistic that a behaviorally-mature, patriotic, unifying non-career-politician candidate will rise to the occasion.  Maybe someone under 60 with broad experience/education, military service and actual maturity who is not from the career political class. But we don't have that someone yet.  

 

[Disco_Nav963]

7 minutes ago, Swamp Yankee said:

That said, I am by no means an enthusiastic Biden supporter.  This election was a reset to politics as usual.  Given the dumpster fire / shit show / shenangians / tomfoolery / fiasco / calamity / goat rope over the last four years, that is a good thing for now.  We will get some relative stability.  I'm confident that Biden supporters, even the extreme factions, will not attempt to stop government by force after being incited by lies.  So there's that. 

 

2. Biden was an opportunity to get from dumpster fire to "Bad within normal parameters," to paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke. We now have a guy who isn't the center of a personality cult. We can build on that. 

[ViperMan]

8 hours ago, slackline said:

when he disagrees with your view that all is right in the land of social equality...

I'm curious. What exactly is "social equality"? What does it look like? I like equality.

4 hours ago, slackline said:

Copy.  They have nothing to worry about.  Parents should stop having "the talk" with their kids. Oh, sorry, I meant black parents because white parents don't do that.

I grew up as a white kid in the American southwest. Middle class parents taught me how to interact with the police. Be polite. Don't argue. Don't resist arrest. Don't grab cops' tazer/gun/other weapons. Don't make a cop fear for his life. Just the basics, you know?

In regards to high-profile deaths of black people, in almost all cases (with the exception of Freddie Gray), they have been misrepresented, misconstrued, or otherwise shaped/framed in order to produce talking points and support the narrative that says blacks are systematically mistreated in the US. That is a fiction.

4 hours ago, slackline said:

Nobody is cherry picking anything. The unending amount of supporting data showing that the protests (a small handful devolved into riots which are bad in any quantity) over the summer were anything but BS. You and others saying they're BS won't make it so.

What data? Data showing that different racial groups produce crime at different rates? The riots this summer were because of COVID. They would not have happened without a global pandemic that gave people nothing but time to think of something to be angry about. Cue the media and some sweet, sweet, narrative to push an agenda.

3 hours ago, Prozac said:

Police brutality and policing in general is something that needs to be addressed, and it effects black people disproportionately.

Black crime affects the USA disproportionately. I agree that default police interaction and policing methods could broadly be made better in this country, but the notion that there is a disproportionate amount of policing affecting blacks in this country is unattached to reality.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

Looking at pure data, in 2017 blacks committed more absolute murders than whites (5,660 > 5,070). If the proportion of the two races was about equal, that would make sense. So, if we're going for "equity", which of those black murders should we let go in order to bring it into balance with the white murder rate? Or, which white people should be charged with murders they didn't commit in order to bring it into balance? I don't see an alternative outcome given the left's current position.

The fact that a much smaller minority is able to account for a disproportionate amount of violent crime in this country does say something - trouble is, it doesn't say there is systematic police discrimination. What it says, in actuality, is that blacks are committing murder at about 7x the rate of whites.

Now, given that, what is the solution to the appearance of over-policing? I don't know, but I'm open to novel solutions.

[ViperMan]

16 minutes ago, Swamp Yankee said:

This election was a reset to politics as usual.

Oh, we're back to normal?!? Sweet, I hadn't heard!

[Swamp Yankee]

9 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

Oh, we're back to normal?!? Sweet, I hadn't heard!

I said politics as usual. Normal is going to awhile, if ever.  

[slackline]

11 minutes ago, ViperMan said:

I'm curious. What exactly is "social equality"? What does it look like? I like equality.

I grew up as a white kid in the American southwest. Middle class parents taught me how to interact with the police. Be polite. Don't argue. Don't resist arrest. Don't grab cops' tazer/gun/other weapons. Don't make a cop fear for his life. Just the basics, you know?

In regards to high-profile deaths of black people, in almost all cases (with the exception of Freddie Gray), they have been misrepresented, misconstrued, or otherwise shaped/framed in order to produce talking points and support the narrative that says blacks are systematically mistreated in the US. That is a fiction.

What data? Data showing that different racial groups produce crime at different rates? The riots this summer were because of COVID. They would not have happened without a global pandemic that gave people nothing but time to think of something to be angry about. Cue the media and some sweet, sweet, narrative to push an agenda.

Black crime affects the USA disproportionately. I agree that default police interaction and policing methods could broadly be made better in this country, but the notion that there is a disproportionate amount of policing affecting blacks in this country is unattached to reality.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

Looking at pure data, in 2017 blacks committed more absolute murders than whites (5,660 > 5,070). If the proportion of the two races was about equal, that would make sense. So, if we're going for "equity", which of those black murders should we let go in order to bring it into balance with the white murder rate? Or, which white people should be charged with murders they didn't commit in order to bring it into balance? I don't see an alternative outcome given the left's current position.

The fact that a much smaller minority is able to account for a disproportionate amount of violent crime in this country does say something - trouble is, it doesn't say there is systematic police discrimination. What it says, in actuality, is that blacks are committing murder at about 7x the rate of whites.

Now, given that, what is the solution to the appearance of over-policing? I don't know, but I'm open to novel solutions.

The amount of demographic and social evidence that has been presented just here over the last year that you conveniently ignore when you present your "nothing is wrong here" picture is laughable.  

But if you keep ignoring it, you can feel comfortable.  

[ViperMan]

3 minutes ago, Swamp Yankee said:

I said politics as usual. Normal is going to awhile, if ever.  

Oh...sorry...help me with the difference?

Normal

Adjective

REGULAR, NORMAL, TYPICAL, NATURAL mean being of the sort or kind that is expected as usual, ordinary, or average.

[ViperMan]

3 minutes ago, slackline said:

The amount of demographic and social evidence that has been presented just here over the last year that you conveniently ignore when you present your "nothing is wrong here" picture is laughable.  

But if you keep ignoring it, you can feel comfortable.  

Well, there definitely is something wrong here. We just disagree about what it is. You think that black people are being systematically mistreated and/or over-policed. Trouble is, policing in ~ 80% of cases is in response to a call - not because some cop goes out of his way to interact with a minority.

https://lawliberty.org/the-facts-on-race-crime-and-policing-in-america/

[Seadogs]

4 hours ago, slackline said:

Dude, Seadogs, you made bail after the riot?!  That was crazy man, crazy...

In what way does anything I’m saying hinge on my skin color?  If I’m black it’s legit, if I’m not I should stop talking?

Are you or are you not? Cause if you aren't and you are telling black people to be scared of cops, then you are carrying an authority you do not have. And you come off as highly offensive. 

[17D_guy]

2 hours ago, Seadogs said:

Are you or are you not? Cause if you aren't and you are telling black people to be scared of cops, then you are carrying an authority you do not have. And you come off as highly offensive. 

Holy shit.

Get to the ER, you've had a stroke.

[Swamp Yankee]

7 hours ago, ViperMan said:

Oh...sorry...help me with the difference?

Normal

Adjective

REGULAR, NORMAL, TYPICAL, NATURAL mean being of the sort or kind that is expected as usual, ordinary, or average.

Recovering back to the typical (aka "normal") situation is going to take time because things have become so screwed up. We've turned back in the direction of normal (with all of it's pros and cons) by reverting back to (somewhat) how politics operated pre-Trump.  However, it's an analog, not digital, system.  

[ClearedHot]

8 hours ago, ViperMan said:

I grew up as a white kid in the American southwest.

There you go throwing your White Privilege around again...

[Swamp Yankee]

10 hours ago, ViperMan said:

I'm curious. What exactly is "social equality"? What does it look like? I like equality.

I grew up as a white kid in the American southwest. Middle class parents taught me how to interact with the police. Be polite. Don't argue. Don't resist arrest. Don't grab cops' tazer/gun/other weapons. Don't make a cop fear for his life. Just the basics, you know?

In regards to high-profile deaths of black people, in almost all cases (with the exception of Freddie Gray), they have been misrepresented, misconstrued, or otherwise shaped/framed in order to produce talking points and support the narrative that says blacks are systematically mistreated in the US. That is a fiction.

What data? Data showing that different racial groups produce crime at different rates? The riots this summer were because of COVID. They would not have happened without a global pandemic that gave people nothing but time to think of something to be angry about. Cue the media and some sweet, sweet, narrative to push an agenda.

Black crime affects the USA disproportionately. I agree that default police interaction and policing methods could broadly be made better in this country, but the notion that there is a disproportionate amount of policing affecting blacks in this country is unattached to reality.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2

Looking at pure data, in 2017 blacks committed more absolute murders than whites (5,660 > 5,070). If the proportion of the two races was about equal, that would make sense. So, if we're going for "equity", which of those black murders should we let go in order to bring it into balance with the white murder rate? Or, which white people should be charged with murders they didn't commit in order to bring it into balance? I don't see an alternative outcome given the left's current position.

The fact that a much smaller minority is able to account for a disproportionate amount of violent crime in this country does say something - trouble is, it doesn't say there is systematic police discrimination. What it says, in actuality, is that blacks are committing murder at about 7x the rate of whites.

Now, given that, what is the solution to the appearance of over-policing? I don't know, but I'm open to novel solutions.

I suggest talking to a black person (or better, people) who disagrees with your position above.  It might be enlightening. 

However, for arguments sake, let's just assume you're correct in that police interaction is not biased again black people. Then why is the African-American community complaining so much?  What is your explanation? 

[Lord Ratner]

7 hours ago, joe1234 said:

To paraphrase an old quote, it's going to be difficult to get someone to understand something when their relative station in life depends upon them not understanding it.

Another stupid comment designed to make you feel better about your virtue. My station in life is completely unaffected by policing and black people. But I have an ethical interest in the matter. Misguided progressive policy, often based on gross misinterpretations of cause and effect, have a historical and frightening way of creating the problem they claim existed the whole time before failing to solve it.

 

We all have an interest in preventing this.

[Lord Ratner]

40 minutes ago, Swamp Yankee said:

I suggest talking to a black person (or better, people) who disagrees with your position above.  It might be enlightening. 

However, for arguments sake, let's just assume you're correct in that police interaction is not biased again black people. Then why is the African-American community complaining so much?  What is your explanation? 

Bias and racism are not synonyms. If you are a police officer and the overwhelming balance of interactions you have with criminals are of a certain skin color, as a human you are going to develop a bias. That does not make you racist. We know this because minority police are subject to the exact same bias. Remember how stupid we all thought it was when TSA was patting down elderly white women in wheelchairs?

 

This is a problem to be solved, but any solution is immediately precluded by calling the participants evil, which racism very much is. 

 

I think well meaning liberals gravitate towards this narrative because it is a much easier solution. With racism, you just go after the racists. People and policy, find and destroy. But the real solution is probably going to involve the breakdown of the black family unit, and the incarceration of young black men for decades. Nothing about that is going to be quick or easy. Or cheap.

 

Affirmative action in colleges is another example of this phenomenon. The easy answer was to just twist the numbers to get more black people in college. But in many ways black people have paid the price of that ill-conceived solution. The real answer was always to fix black education at the elementary school level, and work up from there. But the results from that endeavor would not be seen for decades, whereas changing college admissions only takes four years to yield hypothetical results.

 

Perception is not reality, but it guides how we act. The more we scream about systemic racism, despite the hard evidence, the more people will believe it.  Just like election fraud. I find it almost amusing how each side sees the riots of the other side as inconceivable. I don't. I think the riots were unjustified and certainly immoral based on evidence, but I'm not surprised that they happened. a bunch of well-meaning citizens made the foolish mistake of taking what their politicians and media figures said as truth. What would you do if you legitimately believed that our democratic election process was being stolen from us? I hope that you would have your guns ready and march on the capitol. Likewise if you believed that the police were intentionally killing scores of black people without cause, based only on the fact that they were black, I would hope that you would take to the streets. I would.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Lord Ratner

[filthy_liar]

Slackline feels guilty for being white.  He has bought the "white man bad" rhetoric hook line and sinker.  That is an unbelievably weak state of mind.  I think there are probably more and more like him in the military today, and unfortunately the military seems to be encouraging that line of thinking. 

The Army regulations are knee-jerking hard left on this notion of white privilege, systemic racism, and wokeness...some of it is hard to read.  I'm not sure if the AF regs are going in the same direction but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they are headed that way.

[slackline]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

Lots of words, some good, some not so much.

You make some pretty good points in here, but I think you still easily dismiss the hard evidence that goes counter to your narrative.  Affirmative action, I don’t have a good answer for you there.  I think we’re on similar ground on that one.

I think where I take issue is that you’ve narrowed it down to “fixing their problem”, basically putting it 100% on them.  “Well, if they’d stop stepping out on their women and maintain a nuclear family, they wouldn’t be in this mess...” That ignores the massive amounts of policies that have existed in the US to make it more difficult for them to take out loans, buy houses, biases (since you guys all have a fear of the word racism) that prevented them from getting jobs, treated as hostile suspects, I could go on, and it’s all been laid out here a million times.  

Even Trump didn’t hide it back when he was heavy into the apartment game.  Trump instructed them to label applications from black people so they knew who to deny.  I’ll even give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was due more to bias than racist beliefs.  

Socioeconomic factors that have been created by decades of wrongheaded policies based off fear and/or ignorance have created the situation we’re in today.

1 hour ago, filthy_liar said:

Slackline feels guilty for being white.  He has bought the "white man bad" rhetoric hook line and sinker.  That is an unbelievably weak state of mind.  I think there are probably more and more like him in the military today, and unfortunately the military seems to be encouraging that line of thinking. 

The Army regulations are knee-jerking hard left on this notion of white privilege, systemic racism, and wokeness...some of it is hard to read.  I'm not sure if the AF regs are going in the same direction but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they are headed that way.

 Couldn’t be further from the truth.  I can’t control the family I was born into, just like I couldn’t control the country I was born into.  I lucked out on both accounts!  Very greatful for it.  Does that mean that if I see something we could fix I shouldn’t say anything?  I should just sit there with my mouth shut to make others feel more comfortable?  Acknowledging that something like having priviledges others don’t have simply because of the skin color I happened to be born with doesn’t mean anyone is racist.  It means we still have work to do to overcome decades of overtly racist beliefs that led to covert ways to keep others in check, given different names or justifications to make those around them feel comfortable.  

I realize, I’m not convincing any of you with anything I say.  I‘m not saying it for you.  I don’t think you’re racist either.  Just so easily offended by the notion that there are still problems in the system that benefit one skin color more than another.  I’m opening myself up to the dreaded criticism from the internet for those that are just lurking, maybe aren’t sure one way or another, and actually consider reasoned, logical arguments.  What a bunch of people on an internet forum say about my online profile won’t keep me up at night...

[ViperMan]

So the responses proffered were "go re-read this forum," a tangential "his lot in life depends on this belief so he won't understand," "go talk to a black person," and most recently, changing the subject to "black people were historically discriminated against in this country." Hmmm? And I'm the person not wanting to have a conversation about this? Pfffffft. Scoff.

Each of those responses is a prototype for avoiding something that challenges a closely held belief. Note, I don't deny that blacks were historically discriminated against in this country and that those policies have effects to this day (today). But that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about rioting and policing being unfair in this country. I provided data that (to me) fully explains why policing appears disproportionate. That doesn't square with some dogma, but it can't be addressed directly because it doesn't fit into an acceptable narrative, so we get the four side-steps outlined above.

Let me offer this: there is middle ground out there, but if you're going to find it, you have to accept what's real. We can agree that blacks have been treated horribly historically in this country and that something needs to be done to wrench this community (and others) out of the death spiral it seems to be in. You won't find middle ground with people "on the other side" whilst denying obvious realities and pinning the tail on whatever donkey you've been told is responsible. The cops aren't your scapegoat. The greatest irony in all this "BLM" nonsense from the summer was that the police are the greatest actual BLM organization out there - but of course they're the ones painted as the villains.

Edited February 4, 2021 by ViperMan

[kaputt]

There are systemic issues holding the black community back. However most of them are driven by the same party that says “if you don’t vote for me, you ain’t black.” Look at the dominant political party in each city that had massive unrest this summer. 
 

Democrat policy has by and large owned the black vote by developing social programs that keep the black community dependent on government assistance. Most of this “assistance” is then paired to the narrative of the hopeless black man still being held down by the American legacy of slavery. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy that has engrained itself into black culture and is self defeating. 
 

And the “solutions” coming forward on this are just more of the same. ViperMan mentioned the death spiral of these communities. Corey Booker wants to implement “baby bonds” where every child born in America gets a $1,000 savings account with money added to it each year until they turn 18, with the the poorest families getting the most money deposited (up to $2,000 I believe). Anyone with a brain sees that a policy like this merely encourages further poverty and govt dependence. Why would you work to improve your standing in life if your kids can get nearly $40,000 handed to them by remaining in poverty. The proposal for this program also specifically mentions aiding those in minority communities, so it’s no doubt who this vote getting scheme is meant to target. The death spiral continues...
 

Republicans do share the blame in that none of them have the stones to actually address this issue, probably for fear of being called racist, so instead they sit silently on the sidelines and try and pretend the problem doesn’t exist. 
 

All that being said, this whole narrative of a racist fabric within America that holds minorities and blacks back or a racist army of cops executing black men in the street is such a freaking cop out. It’s a convenient distraction for a political party that shares a large part of the blame for the plight of African Americans in this country yet counts on their vote every 2 and 4 years. Unfortunately it’s seemed to work. 
 

There are real solutions to this but they take actual hard work and will also likely take decades to see results. If we want to see something succeed it will take people that recognize that the very real problem of decades of mistreatment and discrimination of blacks was not helped by a policy of government dependence that has actually pushed the community into further despair. 

[Swamp Yankee]

15 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

Bias and racism are not synonyms. If you are a police officer and the overwhelming balance of interactions you have with criminals are of a certain skin color, as a human you are going to develop a bias. That does not make you racist. We know this because minority police are subject to the exact same bias. Remember how stupid we all thought it was when TSA was patting down elderly white women in wheelchairs?

 

This is a problem to be solved, but any solution is immediately precluded by calling the participants evil, which racism very much is. 

 

I think well meaning liberals gravitate towards this narrative because it is a much easier solution. With racism, you just go after the racists. People and policy, find and destroy. But the real solution is probably going to involve the breakdown of the black family unit, and the incarceration of young black men for decades. Nothing about that is going to be quick or easy. Or cheap.

 

Affirmative action in colleges is another example of this phenomenon. The easy answer was to just twist the numbers to get more black people in college. But in many ways black people have paid the price of that ill-conceived solution. The real answer was always to fix black education at the elementary school level, and work up from there. But the results from that never would not be seen for decades, whereas changing college admissions only takes four years to yield hypothetical results.

 

Perception is not reality, but it guides how we act. The more we scream about systemic racism, despite the hard evidence, the more people will believe it.  I find it almost amusing how each side sees the riots of the other side as inconceivable. I don't. I think the riots were unjustified and certainly immoral based on that, but I'm not surprised that they happened. a bunch of well-meaning citizens made the foolish mistake of taking what their politicians and media figures said as truth. What would you do if you legitimately believed that our democratic election process was being stolen from us? I hope that you would have your guns ready and march on the capitol. Likewise if you believed that the police were intentionally killing scores of black people without cause, based only on the fact that they were black, I would hope that you would take to the streets. I would.

Bias and racism are synonyms, at least according to this reference:

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/racist

More precisely, racism (per contemporary usage) is on the extreme right side of a specific type of bias ("racial bias") "Right" in this context is based on conventional data presentation, not politics. There can be and are racists on the political left. 

Improving policing definitely requires multivariate analysis. Nevertheless, racism (or behavior/actions along the racial bias spectrum) is a significant factor that must be addressed.  Having friends and family in law enforcement, I am sympathetic to the many hats they must wear over the course of a shift and throughout a career.  That and their overall lack of ongoing training.  Think of the training prior to a deployment. Or the typical ratio of flight planning to time in the air. Police get nowhere near enough of that.  They need more funding, not less.  However (and its a big however) regardless of that police have to behave in a way that earns and keeps the public's trust.  If you have one police officer who is violent due to racial bias and 99 others who keep quiet about it, you've got 100 bad cops in the eyes of the targeted minority community (or 20 who harass, 60 who remain silent, etc. etc.)  I spent some time as a youth in NYC and observed such violence first hand with family who is much darker complexioned than me but engaging in the same mischievous behavior.  Unfortunately, I couldn't record it at the time since I didn't have a shoulder-mounted VHS camera. 

Calling out racism a la BLM does not mean you are ignoring other variables or automatically painting a given group as evil.  There is a concern about and attention paid to black crime (Stop the Violence and Parishoners on Patrol). As a side note, I don't endorse the bizarre BLM positions on their website regarding socialism and nuclear families. 

Affirmative Action is a completely different animal which I agree has been poorly implemented and resulted in massive backlash.  True equality of opportunity (as opposed to forcing an easily measured statistical outcome) is difficult to achieve because it is complex and results can only be determined over a long time scale; i.e. longer than the typical political term or attention span.  No one I'm aware of is suggesting a poof! magic wand solution to police racial bias.   

 

[Swamp Yankee]

2 hours ago, ViperMan said:

So the responses proffered were "go re-read this forum," a tangential "his lot in life depends on this belief so he won't understand," "go talk to a black person," and most recently, changing the subject to "black people were historically discriminated against in this country." Hmmm? And I'm the person not wanting to have a conversation about this? Pfffffft. Scoff.

Each of those responses is a prototype for avoiding something that challenges a closely held belief. Note, I don't deny that blacks were historically discriminated against in this country and that those policies have effects to this day (today). But that wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about rioting and policing being unfair in this country. I provided data that (to me) fully explains why policing appears disproportionate. That doesn't square with some dogma, but it can't be addressed directly because it doesn't fit into an acceptable narrative, so we get the four side-steps outlined above.

Let me offer this: there is middle ground out there, but if you're going to find it, you have to accept what's real. We can agree that blacks have been treated horribly historically in this country and that something needs to be done to wrench this community (and others) out of the death spiral it seems to be in. You won't find middle ground with people "on the other side" whilst denying obvious realities and pinning the tail on whatever donkey you've been told is responsible. The cops aren't your scapegoat. The greatest irony in all this "BLM" nonsense from the summer was that the police are the greatest actual BLM organization out there - but of course they're the ones painted as the villains.

How is "go talk to a black person" who experiences issues "avoiding something"?   Data collection is an essential component of problem analysis.  I'm not suggesting everything you hear will be fact or even relevant.  However, it is intellectually fragile ground to make claims about someone's position without at least speaking with them.  

That said, maybe you have done so.  If that is the case, I'm interested in what you heard.  Were any of your opinions challenged?

[slc]

While we're on this subject, anyone seen this bit of racist shit?  

It comes back at ya from all angles

https://www.fuse.tv/shows/that-white-people-shit

[17D_guy]

4 hours ago, slc said:

While we're on this subject, anyone seen this bit of racist shit?  

It comes back at ya from all angles

https://www.fuse.tv/shows/that-white-people-shit

That link doesn't go to "that white people shit."

But here's some "white people shit" for you - https://v.redd.it/vzpry1jq3qe61

[ViperMan]

6 hours ago, Swamp Yankee said:

How is "go talk to a black person" who experiences issues "avoiding something"?   Data collection is an essential component of problem analysis.  I'm not suggesting everything you hear will be fact or even relevant.  However, it is intellectually fragile ground to make claims about someone's position without at least speaking with them.  

That said, maybe you have done so.  If that is the case, I'm interested in what you heard.  Were any of your opinions challenged?

In the abstract? It's not, and is always a good idea to go to talk with people.

In the context of the conversation at hand, it's an attempt to avoid dealing with the very real issue of disproportionate levels of violent crime being committed by the black community in the USA. And further, I'm not sure what would be gleaned from a conversation with one individual that would explain why blacks commit a greater number of murders than whites, whilst being outnumbered by whites ~ 7x. Maybe it would be illuminating, but even still, would at best be anecdotal. And I will say this, I am generally not convinced of "truths" about groups of people by emotion or personal stories - I'd say that makes me an anti-racist - in the true sense of the word, not this new-speak we're all being subjected to.

Either way, the FBI is convinced that there is a problem. I'm not sure why that is so difficult to fit in to certain belief sets, but I have my ideas. And notice, none of you guys has/can/will acknowledge the data put forth. Why? Why is it hard to look at a data set and say, "yeah, that is a problem"? Is it a conspiracy? Do you literally not believe those numbers? Are there massive numbers of white murders that are going unreported and unsolved? Or are there massive numbers of blacks being convicted and incarcerated for murders they didn't commit? You see why people like me have a hard time even seeing where you guys are coming from on this subject.