The Next President is...

[busdriver]

If at the point in time in question, the fetus is a person:

Ask what circumstances would make you think justifiable homicide makes sense.



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[Prozac]

1 hour ago, busdriver said:

If at the point in time in question, the fetus is a person:

Ask what circumstances would make you think justifiable homicide makes sense.



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The crux is that you need to define “person”. Spoiler alert: Not everyone in this country (to include scientists, doctors, theologians, philosophers, judges, etc) is going to agree with your assessment. Not saying you or anyone else shouldn’t continue to be passionate in your beliefs, but reaching any kind of consensus on this issue in our lifetimes is unlikely at best. 

[jazzdude]

If at the point in time in question, the fetus is a person:

Ask what circumstances would make you think justifiable homicide makes sense.



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Let me ask the question in a different way, so as not to lead the conversation into a one way answer like you did.

What is the value of life? Not just for as an embryo or fetus, but as an infant, child, teenager, adult, elderly adult?

If you value life (which is *the* argument against abortion, and most people value life in some form or fashion), do you value it equally across a lifetime, or does the value change at different points in life, and why does it change?

A related question that feeds into the value of life is what is the goal or purpose in life? Minimize suffering? Maximize personal happiness? Work towards some greater societal good? Maximize wealth? Is it a sense of duty or obligation to society (family, friends, organization, country)? Create as many offspring to propagate your genes? Different goals will cause you to change how you value life in general and for particular groups.

Along the same line as the original question you passed, is it ever right to kill another person? I'd hope that since most people on this board are in the military that the answer is yes. However, there are people who don't believe it's right to do so, or set the bar much higher than where our national policy is for the use of force. Is collateral damage acceptable in military operations, and if so, where do you draw the line on what an innocent life is worth in order to achieve military objectives?

Yes, those are philosophical questions, and I'll probably be accused of waffling in the middle. But it's a way to examine why you think the way you do in a reasoned way.

And just for reference, younger me was staunchly pro-life, but older me who's talked with more people about their opinions and tried to take hard looks at not just what I believe, but also why (which is largely why I post lengthy posts on topics here that pique my interest), has led me to be pro-choice for a matter of national policy while still viewing abortion as generally wrong, because there's enough situations where it might be an acceptable choice given the facts of the situation.

I'm cautiously optimistic that most people value life and will do the best they can if they are face with this decision. And if they're getting abortions because they don't want the responsibility of raising a kid for whatever reason, well, they'd probably be a crappy parent that would raise a kid that doesn't contribute to (or becomes a drain on) society anyways.

It's good to encourage them to keep the baby, but if not, that decision is on them, and not on me, and on the religious side of this issue, the action is between them and God, and God will take care of any punishment that is due to them.

[busdriver]

12 minutes ago, jazzdude said:

Let me ask the question in a different way, so as not to lead the conversation into a one way answer like you did.

What is the value of life? Not just for as an embryo or fetus, but as an infant, child, teenager, adult, elderly adult?

 those are philosophical questions,
 

I would argue a person has agency, and therefore a right to life and liberty.  I don't believe in god, and don't think there's any inherent value in human life.  Euthanasia and doctor assisted suicides are fine by me, even if the actual implementation is super sticky. 

I wasn't being snarky, justifiable homicide is generally how I think about an acceptable abortion at this point in time. 

I realize you can argue about levels of agency in a baby, but we all know babies grow.  I can't see how a zygote is a person, I also can't see how a soon to be born baby isn't a person.  I don't have a good answer beyond that.  I'd probably be fine with an arbitrary line drawn somewhere in the middle.  But I'm not personally wound up about, since I can't parse a 100% answer myself.

Of course this is all philosophical.  If you aren't dogmatic about it, that's the only place this conversation ends up.  There are many people who aren't capable of actually having a conversation, nor agreeing on what the conversation is actually about.

[kaputt]

 

 

Well this seems to meet the definition of irony. Will the President be weighing in on how this makes Jim Crow look like Jim Eagle?

[brickhistory]

Why lie?  

Along the lines of Hillary's (btw, she was never president, so I got that going for me...) landing under fire BS story, our duly elected (say, why is DOJ, et al, fighting so hard to interfere/slow roll the Maricopa County election audit?) President had to tell a lie about Amtrak, his mother, a conductor...

https://nypost.com/2021/05/06/amtrak-joe-bidens-story-about-conductor-being-question/

TLDR version:  Biden, promoting Amtrak, recounts how as VP, he'd take Amtrak to see his ailing mother and a long-time conductor would pinch his cheek, and say, "Joey, baby!" to congratulate him on a million plus miles on Amtrak.and that the Secret Service had a fit the first time.

A. Biden's mother died in 2010 and the story is circa 2013-ish according to Biden.

B.  The conductor retired in 1993.

Dementia means never having to get your story straight.

 

But at least he's not tweeting meanly.

[VMFA187]

Why be honest when you know almost all media will refuse to hold you accountable for any lies?

[TreeA10]

If the mars rover had the capability and it found a single cell organism or, more impressively, a multicell organism on that distant planet, all the scientists on this planet would say we have discovered what?  A)  A non-viable mass.  B)  an inconvenience  C)  life.  

[Lawman]

If the mars rover had the capability and it found a single cell organism or, more impressively, a multicell organism on that distant planet, all the scientists on this planet would say we have discovered what?  A)  A non-viable mass.  B)  an inconvenience  C)  life.  

I guarantee regardless of whatever they call it, they will make endless rules to protect it from any outside influence or risk to its existence.

Good luck landing any more scientific studies within 400 miles of the “existing pool of biological mass.”


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[Day Man]

5 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

If the mars rover had the capability and it found a single cell organism or, more impressively, a multicell organism on that distant planet, all the scientists on this planet would say we have discovered what?  A)  A non-viable mass.  B)  an inconvenience  C)  life.  

can you clarify what you mean here?

[brickhistory]

6 hours ago, TreeA10 said:

If the mars rover had the capability and it found a single cell organism or, more impressively, a multicell organism on that distant planet, all the scientists on this planet would say we have discovered what?  A)  A non-viable mass.  B)  an inconvenience  C)  life.  

 

Nicely done.

[TreeA10]

1 hour ago, Day Man said:

can you clarify what you mean here?

It's a very simple question and I'm not sure what more clarification I could add. The discovery of a single cell or multi-cell organism on another planet would be defined by scientists as?

[HossHarris]

18 minutes ago, TreeA10 said:

It's a very simple question and I'm not sure what more clarification I could add. The discovery of a single cell or multi-cell organism on another planet would be defined by scientists as?

Which trimester is the planet in?

[Day Man]

22 minutes ago, TreeA10 said:

It's a very simple question and I'm not sure what more clarification I could add. The discovery of a single cell or multi-cell organism on another planet would be defined by scientists as?

I'm inferring (again) you posit this regarding 'life' on another planet equating a fertilized egg as being alive? is that correct?

edit: this is a huge derailment from the current thread...this probably needs its own (never-ending) thread to continue 🍻

Edited May 8, 2021 by Day Man

[TreeA10]

4 hours ago, Day Man said:

I'm inferring (again) you posit this regarding 'life' on another planet equating a fertilized egg as being alive? is that correct?

edit: this is a huge derailment from the current thread...this probably needs its own (never-ending) thread to continue 🍻

My apologies for the thread derailment. I made no mention of an egg fertilized, fried, or scrambled. I just said a single or multicellular organism. It's a simple question. 

[brickhistory]

The sun shines, the tweets are positive, and the press must now clear quoting Biden Administration officials before actually quoting them.  And they seem to be ok with that.

 

Further, there are no more "kids in cages."  Instead, this band of professionals have brought us "free range kids" who are found randomly scattered on arid border lands.

[brickhistory]

Inflation is up.

Gas availability is down.

[busdriver]

Gas is the new shit paper.

[TreeA10]

On 5/8/2021 at 1:07 PM, HossHarris said:

Which trimester is the planet in?

I think the answer to that question should be between the planet and it's attending astrophysicist. 

[kaputt]

17 hours ago, busdriver said:

Gas is the new shit paper.

For once, those of us out in California, aren’t bearing the brunt of a garbage infrastructure problem. 😆 

[brickhistory]

At least he didn't call them fat, dog face pony soldiers, or ask them to step outside.

https://nypost.com/2021/05/19/biden-chides-dull-coast-guard-grads-in-wild-speech/

 

Quote

President Biden’s jokes fell flat at the US Coast Guard Academy’s graduation ceremony Wednesday leading him to call the grads a “dull class” while boasting of his own college exploits including a fire-extinguisher assault on his dorm’s RA.

 

[GrndPndr]

3 hours ago, brickhistory said:

At least he didn't call them fat, dog face pony soldiers, or ask them to step outside.

https://nypost.com/2021/05/19/biden-chides-dull-coast-guard-grads-in-wild-speech/

 

 

I know it's the CG, but wow what an inspirational speaker.  It sounded a little like he was disappointed the graduates didn't think the Navy was totally awesome (and better than they were).

[arg]

I guess another president said the same thing, with a different reaction.

 

[kaputt]

14 minutes ago, arg said:

I guess another president said the same thing, with a different reaction.

 

Still plagiarizing and doing it badly. 

[arg]

Didn't really know where to put this.

A lot of people call her loony but she didn't sound very loony here.