HeloDude Posted June 5, 2023 Posted June 5, 2023 2 hours ago, nsplayr said: I am a liberal democrat. I do in fact support liberal Democratic Party policies, like those of the current President. I think they are mostly correct and good and that the competing GOP policies are mostly wrong and bad. And yet voluntarily chooses to live in one of the “reddest” states in the country. Wouldn’t you be happier in California or Oregon? Honest question…God knows I would never consider moving to California.
herkbum Posted June 5, 2023 Posted June 5, 2023 As a native Nashvillian, who loves the city, I am so happy I no longer live there. It is not the same city I grew up and lived in for so many years. It is overcrowded and no infrastructure to support the growth. We are in the same state but in a smaller city where I went to college and we love it. It still feels like it did in the early 90s when I was in school there. There has also been so many non natives Nashvillians that have moved in that the city has lost it’s friendliness that I grew up loving. I remember driving or walking thru the city or downtown and everyone spoke to each other or waved when passing. There really aren’t very many Nashvillians downtown unless they are going to a Titans or Predators game. When we had the opportunity to move, we were happy to do so. When we come back to visit, the City definitely has a different feel to it. My old neighborhood has been invaded by non Tennesseans that were not trying to leave the policies that everyone is speaking about, but moved because of their job or wanting to live in a city/state without an income tax. It created disagreements and the HOA webpage became very entertaining. I miss many of the people I grew up and worked with, but the city has gotten too metropolitan for us. Last month when we were there for a birthday party, my wife looked at me and we both agreed we were happy that we had moved. Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network mobile app
TreeA10 Posted June 5, 2023 Posted June 5, 2023 Nashville is not a urban cesspool with a large crime problem because the sanity of the surrounding Republican/conservative population won't let it. Where leftists and liberal idiots have been allowed free rein in deep blue states, chaos and misery has embedded into the cities. 500,000 people have bailed out of California, IIRC. Google population decline in blue states for better numbers. Claiming to be blind to facts or making false comparisons certainly won't improve the life of anyone too poor to run away from those bad policies. But hey, keep voting for those policies, I'm sure something different will eventually result. 1
FourFans Posted June 5, 2023 Posted June 5, 2023 (edited) @nsplayr Hopefully by now you know that I appreciate your viewpoint and I enjoy sparring. So, as you responded to statements I made and questions I addressed to prozac.... You've been kind enough and polite enough to explain what you believe. I greatly appreciate that. It takes courage to express an unpopular opinion so in a public forum. Expression of deeply held beliefs is generally terrifying at a cognitive level. Specifically because it is exclusive. Embracing one set of beliefs excludes others and thereby puts a person in a specific and sometimes isolated class. Thankfully, doing so also exposes truths that have convinced a person to change their way of living based on a line of reason (hopefully) and should therefore be shared with others. If you have changed your way of living based on a line of reason, I am actively curious to hear the why behind it. You have shared the what you believe. You and others have actively refused to share the 'why'. The state of our cities are a great example. I've been to Portland, Dallas, Seattle, Anchorage, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, Memphis, Miami, Honolulu, Chicago, Sydney, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Cologne, London, Tokyo, and Seoul multiple times in the past 24 months. I walk around when I'm there. A lot. I can attest to the fact that major American cities have declined excessively in their safety, quality, and general habitability, especially when compared to their international cohort that is not experiencing the same woke agenda applications. (Cologne would be the an exception as it is full woke, and rapidly becoming more dangerous and drug ridden). Yet you declare you're willingness to ignore the decline of humanity's densest population centers based on your own personal observation of one city...that's not rational, reasonable, or intellectually honest. I've spent very little time in Nashville, though my few experiences have been good. I digress. If someone disagrees with me based on their values, my default is to question my own opinion and figure out what I've got wrong. I think that asking them what they value and why they value it is a rational and respectful thing to do. I want to know the WHY behind what people believe. When they actively refuse to respond, I'm going to call that out as cowardice...because that's what it is. Not having the courage to demonstrate, explain, or stand up for what one claims to believe is a demonstration of exactly that: cowardice. I've been addressed before here for using the word "coward" and I will continue to use it correctly in context. To those who don't like it, I'm not going to apologize. So in my view, @Prozac is displaying cowardice on an internet forum by refusing to answer questions concerning why he believes what he believes. I'm calling that out. Doing so doesn't make me mean or a bully. It makes me honest. The emotional responses to my questions is not my responsibility, they are the product of someone else's maturity. If you disagree with that, please re-examine the definition of a bully. Next, this gem: iF yOu DoN’t AnSwEr My iMpLiEd QuEsTiOns I wIlL bEaT yOu Up!!!1 Stop being childish. You should know by now that's not my style. If I issue a threat it's direct and usually rash...and usually retracted. Threats on the internet are stupid. Most people I've encountered start tearing up the first time they feel how bad a punch hurts their own knuckles. I know I did. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the guys here are doughy dudes who've never actually been in a real fight. Hopefully your cute online insults serve you well in the real world. I asked a legit question based on legit science. If the body is in shit shape, the brain isn't going to work as it should. I still haven't gotten an answer from prozac. If you are unacquainted with the association of physical and mental health, you should be. If not, don't feel bad. It's a common problem in American society. Oddly enough, a lot of the rest of the world clearly understands it and almost takes it for granted. For example, the Japanese have culturally inculcated physical activity as a daily requirement for their salaryman class. They've even got walking tracks on the roofs of their skyscraper office buildings. Yet Americans think someone is being a meathead bully if they ask someone else if they exercise or physically train. It's rather weak minded...which is rather appropriate, all things considered. If you haven't noticed, I don't imply questions. I ask them directly. Sometimes I get drunk and ALL the filters get bypassed, but my core belief remain the same. I have yet to have one person answer me directly as to why they believe that the current agenda is good for our country. I've heard lots of what. Very little Why. For clarity: My one and only core belief is that I am broken and need a savior, which was provided by God in Jesus. He lived, died, and rose again specifically for the purpose of reconciling me to God. Nothing that I did, nothing that I am. Who he is, and what he's done saves me. My relationship with Him is the ONLY thing in this life that's worth anything. I was built to relate to him. I am highly imperfect. But it's worth the work to try and be better. Politics, religion, money, relationships, family, morality...all of those things are subservient and I poorly understand them. So when I ask pointed questions, it's because I want pointed answers. Living a coherent and intellectually honest life in view of origin, destination, morality, and meaning is the best I can try for. Which is why I ask direct questions. So. Soft on China. Transitioning of children without parental approval. Active celebration of non-straight sexuality. Advocacy of teaching sexual agendas to kids in school. Mandates of politicized public health agendas. Legalization of drugs. Incentivizing fathers to leave the home in low income families. Celebration of biological men oppressing of biological women. Not being able to clearly define what a woman is. Suppression of freelance workers in the economy (go look up the Pro Act and the 70 MILLION freelance workers it would crush). Egregious excessive spending the likes of which you would NEVER approve in your own person budget. Suppression and elimination of the cleanest energy sources human kind has ever created. Enforcement of a 'green' agenda that is not only disastrous for ecosystem, our economy, and our country's defense, but is literally physically impossible. Should I keep going? Claiming that our country's and community's stances on these issues to be sound is intellectually dishonest. All those agenda items are not only endorsed, but ACTIVELY ENFORCED by our current American leadership. Yet you insist that voting for the current version of the democrat party that endorses ALL of the above is sound because they are the party that represents your values. Values which you and your liberal peers refuse to explain. I'm not asking you to change. I'm asking you to explain why you believe what you believe. All I asked prozac, and now I'll ask you again: Why do you believe what you believe. I used to vote democrat. I'm an independent now. I am a parent who has a world that I'm going to leave to my kids. I know what it's like to have a world dumped on and passed on to me by my parent generation. I'm not going to do that to my kids. That means WE ALL need to work to preserve our community and get back to it's foundational principles. If we've gone down the wrong path, progress has to look like backing up and returning to the right path. It seems clear to me that our country is going down the wrong path. We need to back some things up. I guess that makes me conservative. You know what's never happened? A liberal supporter asking me what I believe, not to mention why I believe it. TLDR: Please question your premises about being a "Democrat" or "Republican" because the Democrat or Republican party represents your values. You might find that it actually doesn't. I'm not asking you to vote for my guy. I'm asking you to stop supporting causes that are bad for our community and our country. If you can't see the bad impacts, please get out of the echo chamber and actually inspect our country. Those bad causes have started to impact our personal lives, and more personally our kids. That I'll defend. Edited June 5, 2023 by FourFans
nsplayr Posted June 5, 2023 Posted June 5, 2023 Ok you win for longest post 😅🙌 I will read and respond later lol…that was a lot to even skim. And this is coming from me, I should know!
HeloDude Posted June 6, 2023 Posted June 6, 2023 10 hours ago, nsplayr said: It is! I disagree with you. Nashville has never been better or more prosperous. That’s where I live near and so I have the receipts more than elsewhere. Come here and see for yourself! So you don’t live in the city limits of Nashville? Why not?
Prozac Posted June 6, 2023 Posted June 6, 2023 4 hours ago, FourFans said: @nsplayr Hopefully by now you know that I appreciate your viewpoint and I enjoy sparring. So, as you responded to statements I made and questions I addressed to prozac.... You've been kind enough and polite enough to explain what you believe. I greatly appreciate that. It takes courage to express an unpopular opinion so in a public forum. Expression of deeply held beliefs is generally terrifying at a cognitive level. Specifically because it is exclusive. Embracing one set of beliefs excludes others and thereby puts a person in a specific and sometimes isolated class. Thankfully, doing so also exposes truths that have convinced a person to change their way of living based on a line of reason (hopefully) and should therefore be shared with others. If you have changed your way of living based on a line of reason, I am actively curious to hear the why behind it. You have shared the what you believe. You and others have actively refused to share the 'why'. The state of our cities are a great example. I've been to Portland, Dallas, Seattle, Anchorage, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, Memphis, Miami, Honolulu, Chicago, Sydney, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Cologne, London, Tokyo, and Seoul multiple times in the past 24 months. I walk around when I'm there. A lot. I can attest to the fact that major American cities have declined excessively in their safety, quality, and general habitability, especially when compared to their international cohort that is not experiencing the same woke agenda applications. (Cologne would be the an exception as it is full woke, and rapidly becoming more dangerous and drug ridden). Yet you declare you're willingness to ignore the decline of humanity's densest population centers based on your own personal observation of one city...that's not rational, reasonable, or intellectually honest. I've spent very little time in Nashville, though my few experiences have been good. I digress. If someone disagrees with me based on their values, my default is to question my own opinion and figure out what I've got wrong. I think that asking them what they value and why they value it is a rational and respectful thing to do. I want to know the WHY behind what people believe. When they actively refuse to respond, I'm going to call that out as cowardice...because that's what it is. Not having the courage to demonstrate, explain, or stand up for what one claims to believe is a demonstration of exactly that: cowardice. I've been addressed before here for using the word "coward" and I will continue to use it correctly in context. To those who don't like it, I'm not going to apologize. So in my view, @Prozac is displaying cowardice on an internet forum by refusing to answer questions concerning why he believes what he believes. I'm calling that out. Doing so doesn't make me mean or a bully. It makes me honest. The emotional responses to my questions is not my responsibility, they are the product of someone else's maturity. If you disagree with that, please re-examine the definition of a bully. Next, this gem: iF yOu DoN’t AnSwEr My iMpLiEd QuEsTiOns I wIlL bEaT yOu Up!!!1 Stop being childish. You should know by now that's not my style. If I issue a threat it's direct and usually rash...and usually retracted. Threats on the internet are stupid. Most people I've encountered start tearing up the first time they feel how bad a punch hurts their own knuckles. I know I did. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the guys here are doughy dudes who've never actually been in a real fight. Hopefully your cute online insults serve you well in the real world. I asked a legit question based on legit science. If the body is in shit shape, the brain isn't going to work as it should. I still haven't gotten an answer from prozac. If you are unacquainted with the association of physical and mental health, you should be. If not, don't feel bad. It's a common problem in American society. Oddly enough, a lot of the rest of the world clearly understands it and almost takes it for granted. For example, the Japanese have culturally inculcated physical activity as a daily requirement for their salaryman class. They've even got walking tracks on the roofs of their skyscraper office buildings. Yet Americans think someone is being a meathead bully if they ask someone else if they exercise or physically train. It's rather weak minded...which is rather appropriate, all things considered. If you haven't noticed, I don't imply questions. I ask them directly. Sometimes I get drunk and ALL the filters get bypassed, but my core belief remain the same. I have yet to have one person answer me directly as to why they believe that the current agenda is good for our country. I've heard lots of what. Very little Why. For clarity: My one and only core belief is that I am broken and need a savior, which was provided by God in Jesus. He lived, died, and rose again specifically for the purpose of reconciling me to God. Nothing that I did, nothing that I am. Who he is, and what he's done saves me. My relationship with Him is the ONLY thing in this life that's worth anything. I was built to relate to him. I am highly imperfect. But it's worth the work to try and be better. Politics, religion, money, relationships, family, morality...all of those things are subservient and I poorly understand them. So when I ask pointed questions, it's because I want pointed answers. Living a coherent and intellectually honest life in view of origin, destination, morality, and meaning is the best I can try for. Which is why I ask direct questions. So. Soft on China. Transitioning of children without parental approval. Active celebration of non-straight sexuality. Advocacy of teaching sexual agendas to kids in school. Mandates of politicized public health agendas. Legalization of drugs. Incentivizing fathers to leave the home in low income families. Celebration of biological men oppressing of biological women. Not being able to clearly define what a woman is. Suppression of freelance workers in the economy (go look up the Pro Act and the 70 MILLION freelance workers it would crush). Egregious excessive spending the likes of which you would NEVER approve in your own person budget. Suppression and elimination of the cleanest energy sources human kind has ever created. Enforcement of a 'green' agenda that is not only disastrous for ecosystem, our economy, and our country's defense, but is literally physically impossible. Should I keep going? Claiming that our country's and community's stances on these issues to be sound is intellectually dishonest. All those agenda items are not only endorsed, but ACTIVELY ENFORCED by our current American leadership. Yet you insist that voting for the current version of the democrat party that endorses ALL of the above is sound because they are the party that represents your values. Values which you and your liberal peers refuse to explain. I'm not asking you to change. I'm asking you to explain why you believe what you believe. All I asked prozac, and now I'll ask you again: Why do you believe what you believe. I used to vote democrat. I'm an independent now. I am a parent who has a world that I'm going to leave to my kids. I know what it's like to have a world dumped on and passed on to me by my parent generation. I'm not going to do that to my kids. That means WE ALL need to work to preserve our community and get back to it's foundational principles. If we've gone down the wrong path, progress has to look like backing up and returning to the right path. It seems clear to me that our country is going down the wrong path. We need to back some things up. I guess that makes me conservative. You know what's never happened? A liberal supporter asking me what I believe, not to mention why I believe it. TLDR: Please question your premises about being a "Democrat" or "Republican" because the Democrat or Republican party represents your values. You might find that it actually doesn't. I'm not asking you to vote for my guy. I'm asking you to stop supporting causes that are bad for our community and our country. If you can't see the bad impacts, please get out of the echo chamber and actually inspect our country. Those bad causes have started to impact our personal lives, and more personally our kids. That I'll defend. That’s a lot of words. I am choosing tot to engage because I don’t usually have the time or energy & I feel like when you and I have engaged in the past it turns into a circular argument. I’ve been on this forum a long time & I think that most who know me here have a pretty good idea where I stand on most issues. Feel free to check out my post history if you’re really curious. I’ll throw you a few cliff’s notes here though: I believe that the US is, and should remain the most prosperous and powerful country in the world and that we are full of opportunities for everyone here. We’re far from perfect and should endeavor to remain the world leader in all of those metrics. To me, that means we should have things like the best education system in the world, the best healthcare system, the best infrastructure, etc. Not just in rich areas of New York, or California, but in rural Mississippi and Arkansas, and Kentucky. It’s unacceptable to me that gun violence has become the biggest killer of children, or that creationism is being taught to American children, or that certain segments of our population have been, and continue to be shut out of the best parts of our economy. In my eyes, the reforms needed are on a national level and are of a nature that only an empowered federal government can tackle. These are just a few of the reasons that I tend to support a larger role for central government as well as tax policies that allow for raising the revenue to prosecute those aims. I am aware there are many pitfalls in this strategy. But there are just as many pitfalls in conservative strategy (more, in fact, IMO). I fully allow that there are many good arguments for a more conservative mindset. I used to subscribe to many of them. I eventually came to the overall conclusion that despite claiming otherwise, conservatives weren’t realists. The argument that we are better off leaving people to their own devices assumes they are generally good and rational. While that may be true on a mostly individual basis, most people simply don’t act in good or rational ways often enough to solve our issues. For instance, expecting local churches to solve poverty, hunger, and homelessness is an exercise in futility. Some problems are simply to big to be left at the local level, yet many conservatives continue to insist that is the way forward. I disagree. Here’s the bottom line. I 100% believe that at the end of the day, despite our differences on how to get there, you and I want to see the same thing: A better United States. You know what worries me more than any of the issues I detailed above? The fact that once upon a time, most of us understood that. That our differences in opinion did not mean we were enemies. Now, it’s different. If you don’t agree with me, you must be trying to destroy my country. While that sentiment certainly exists on both sides, the cacophony from the right seems much louder & is yet another reason I have gravitated to Democrats in recent years. This concern is what sparked my original comment about Hailey and my appreciation for her generally well reasoned positions. To me, it’s far more important for us (Americans in general, not necessarily you and I) to stop thinking of one another as enemies than it is to pledge allegiance to any particular political ideology. 1 2
Boomer6 Posted June 6, 2023 Posted June 6, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Prozac said: While that sentiment certainly exists on both sides, the cacophony from the right seems much louder & is yet another reason I have gravitated to Democrats in recent years. I think you’d find a large percentage of conservative minded ppl that would vehemently disagree which side the larger cacophony is originating from. Copy, they’d believe that because they’re biased too. However, the amount of silencing of conservative viewpoints via social media platforms, news media, and print journalism is a very polarizing issue. Political pundits and journalists labeling anyone non-progressive as a bigot seems to usually be exclaimed quite loudly. Do you think this viewpoint from the right has any basis in fact? Are conservatives over-exaggerating what they feel as a concerted effort by progressives to demonize them, or are they just trying to rile up their base? Edited June 6, 2023 by Boomer6 1
Prozac Posted June 6, 2023 Posted June 6, 2023 4 hours ago, Boomer6 said: I think you’d find a large percentage of conservative minded ppl that would vehemently disagree which side the larger cacophony is originating from. Copy, they’d believe that because they’re biased too. However, the amount of silencing of conservative viewpoints via social media platforms, news media, and print journalism is a very polarizing issue. Political pundits and journalists labeling anyone non-progressive as a bigot seems to usually be exclaimed a quite loudly. Do you think this viewpoint from the right has any basis in fact? Are conservatives over-exaggerating what they feel as a concerted effort by progressives to demonize them, or are they just trying to rile up their base? You bring up a fair point but that’s not really what I was getting at. The mentality that the other side of the aisle is my/the nation’s enemy is a much more common conservative talking point than it is liberal one, evidenced by the fact that you constantly hear about things like civil war from conservative media. I don’t think I’ve ever heard the left leaning sources bring that kind of thing up except to point out the sentiment on the right. That thought process is scarily destructive to our country IMO. Your point that conservative voices and ideas are suppressed by the “mainstream” media has some merit. I think there was a pretty strong argument for that for many years. It eventually led to conservative talk radio programs with folks like Rush Limbaugh, and ultimately, to networks like Fox News. These outlets like to harp on the idea that they’re the underdogs who tell you the things the mainstream won’t, but the reality is that they’ve become mainstream in their own right. Fox News commands the biggest audience on television and has recently spent a not insignificant time in court admitting they lie to their viewers to keep them tuning in. Not saying that’s necessarily different from any other network, but the idea that anyone has the power to suppress stories in this day and age is misleading at best. Conservative media suppresses the stories its users don’t want to hear & vice versa with liberal outlets. The problem isn’t the media, it’s us. These networks are giving the American people exactly what they want, whether that’s the constant drumbeat of Trump indictments, or painting every place with a Democrat in charge to look like an apocalyptic wasteland. We, the American public eat that shit up. Not sure what the answer is but I’m pretty sure it starts with us becoming more savvy consumers of media and recognizing the difference between information and entertainment. 1
FourFans Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 @ Prozac. Congrats on your tenure at baseops. I've been here the whole time you have. I've read many of your posts. Those who claim "I expressed my views, you should know them by now" is being either intellectually lazy, or has completely stopped learning and updating his world view based on new information. I don't take you for either, hence me asking lots of why questions. People change, as they should, and I refuse to assume that someone is intellectually where I last left them. I asked you WHY you believe what you believe. Your response contained a whole lot of WHAT you believe and a significant collection of CNN talking points (which a google search quickly highlighted). Not a single why as far as I can see. For example: On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: To me, that means we should have things like the best education system in the world, the best healthcare system, the best infrastructure, etc. That' a what. Not a how. Definitely not a why. What do you qualify as a 'best' healthcare system? One that makes people wait 8 months for cancer diagnosis (english/canada) or one that you don't have to pay for...but that your really do through higher taxes? Why would you support it? On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: It’s unacceptable to me that gun violence has become the biggest killer of children Straight up a CNN talking point not validated or elucidated with a single fact from the CDC. What age group? What demographic? What qualifies as "gun violence"? Please dude. Question the statements you hear before repeating them. This is literally click bate that you appear to have swallowed completely. Do some research of multiple reputable and unbiased health tracking sources...of which the CDC has epically proven itself not to be...and you'll find that statement is mis-leading at best. I did, and it simply isn't true. Negligent parenting and McDonalds are killing more kids below the age of 18 than IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WITH guns are. A little note: a gun has never, not once, of it's own volition killed anyone. Irresponsible people do that. I agree that No child should ever die from gun violence. What you regurgitated there is simple emotive response material not rooted in fact or data. On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: that creationism is being taught to American children Again that's a what without foundation. In what demographic? Homeschooling? Public Schooling? What about christian schools? Are you ok if they learn Darwinian theory at the same time (which Darwin himself disavowed before he died)? What about homosexual behavior and the mechanics how to do it? That's taught to some kids today in public school right now. Are you ok with that? Seems like you're cheery picking some emotive moral hotspots. WHY do you not like that? On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: certain segments of our population have been, and continue to be shut out of the best parts of our economy. That is one of your broadest statements yet. So do believe in whole-sale socialism? Can you point to a historic or current successful example of how you would employ that? P.S. Life isn't fair. Trying to make it 'fair' as defined by one section of society only makes it worse. On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: In my eyes, the reforms needed are on a national level and are of a nature that only an empowered federal government can tackle. These are just a few of the reasons that I tend to support a larger role for central government as well as tax policies that allow for raising the revenue to prosecute those aims. Yes reforms are needed. History completely disagrees with you about increasing federal power. Never has an increasingly powerful centralized government resulted in higher liberty, freedom, and prosperity for it citizens. If I'm wrong about that please give me your examples. Once again. That's all WHAT material. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THIS What is your logical backup for your stance? What are you basing your beliefs on? On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: I am aware there are many pitfalls in this strategy. But there are just as many pitfalls in conservative strategy (more, in fact, IMO) More. Ok. What exactly are the pitfalls that make conservative strategy worse? Are you happy with the last 3 years of liberal controlled government? You're happy with the economy? With the spending of your tax dollars? With the unity that the party of unity has brought to our country? On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: The argument that we are better off leaving people to their own devices assumes they are generally good and rational. While that may be true on a mostly individual basis, most people simply don’t act in good or rational ways often enough to solve our issues. If you cannot understand how that belief structure leads directly to tyranny, oppression and dictatorship, I can do nothing to help you. You are directly arguing for a communist society where "the state" is more important and more capable of deciding what is good for people than the individual people are. Please go live in a former eastern bloc country...not visit...LIVE IN for 6 months and you'll learn exactly how toxic that viewpoint is. On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: expecting local churches to solve poverty, hunger, and homelessness is an exercise in futility What has led you to that conclusion? Where did modern hospitals, orphanages, adoption processes, welfare systems, vaccines, and mental health institutions come from? This is a violently ignorant and arrogantly bigoted (actual meaning of that word, not the modern liberal use of it) statement. Once again. It explains nothing of WHY you believe it. On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: Some problems are simply to big to be left at the local level, yet many conservatives continue to insist that is the way forward. I disagree. Why do you disagree? Please back up your statement. On 6/5/2023 at 10:39 PM, Prozac said: Here’s the bottom line...and your closing paragraph. You sound very much like you listen to a lot of media...from whatever side. Here's what concerns me the most: American's that violently defend a stance of WHAT they believe while having NOT A SINGLE RATIONAL CLUE as to WHY the believe it. In the end, I think it's a lot of people who simply what to fight and stand up for "their side" without ever actually putting to brain bites into truly analyzing the facts behind "their side" and deciding if it make logical sense. Put differently: people want to passionately defend their side because if feels good. Understand the why behind that side is usually too intellectually challenging so they just skip it...turning themselves into what stalin call "useful idiots". Please don't be a useful idiot, regardless of what side you land on. Please tackle the why behind your stance. I have ask a LOT of why questions in order that I might truly understand what's behind your belief structure. I'm not getting a lot of solid feedback beyond some strongly defended talking points based on emotion and not fact. Still standing by for the answer to the WHY questions. 1
ClearedHot Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 On 6/5/2023 at 10:45 AM, nsplayr said: It is! I disagree with you. Nashville has never been better or more prosperous. That’s where I live near and so I have the receipts more than elsewhere. Come here and see for yourself! As you know I have spent a LOT of time in Nashville and what you are saying is simply not true unless you are ignoring crime. Aside from lunatics detonating bomb laden RVs in the center of town you also have some other statistics that are counter to your assertion. In particular, violent crime is up year over year and increasing with homicide setting new records. Over the last decade homicide in Nashville is up a staggering 78%...hardly the utopian liberal hemp fest you are suggesting. Oh and according to current reports, after a 27% increase in 2019 and 2020, the 2023 homicide rate is up another 8.7% as compared to the same time in 2022...congrats! Adjusted for population and as compared to the rest of Tennessee and the nation, some sad numbers emerge. The violent crime rate in Nashville is almost double the rate of the rest of Tennessee and nearly triple the national average. The property crime and other crimes categories follow the same trend. 1
Prozac Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 2 hours ago, FourFans said: @ Prozac. Congrats on your tenure at baseops. I've been here the whole time you have. I've read many of your posts. Those who claim "I expressed my views, you should know them by now" is being either intellectually lazy, or has completely stopped learning and updating his world view based on new information. I don't take you for either, hence me asking lots of why questions. People change, as they should, and I refuse to assume that someone is intellectually where I last left them. I asked you WHY you believe what you believe. Your response contained a whole lot of WHAT you believe and a significant collection of CNN talking points (which a google search quickly highlighted). Not a single why as far as I can see. For example: That' a what. Not a how. Definitely not a why. What do you qualify as a 'best' healthcare system? One that makes people wait 8 months for cancer diagnosis (english/canada) or one that you don't have to pay for...but that your really do through higher taxes? Why would you support it? Straight up a CNN talking point not validated or elucidated with a single fact from the CDC. What age group? What demographic? What qualifies as "gun violence"? Please dude. Question the statements you hear before repeating them. This is literally click bate that you appear to have swallowed completely. Do some research of multiple reputable and unbiased health tracking sources...of which the CDC has epically proven itself not to be...and you'll find that statement is mis-leading at best. I did, and it simply isn't true. Negligent parenting and McDonalds are killing more kids below the age of 18 than IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WITH guns are. A little note: a gun has never, not once, of it's own volition killed anyone. Irresponsible people do that. I agree that No child should ever die from gun violence. What you regurgitated there is simple emotive response material not rooted in fact or data. Again that's a what without foundation. In what demographic? Homeschooling? Public Schooling? What about christian schools? Are you ok if they learn Darwinian theory at the same time (which Darwin himself disavowed before he died)? What about homosexual behavior and the mechanics how to do it? That's taught to some kids today in public school right now. Are you ok with that? Seems like you're cheery picking some emotive moral hotspots. WHY do you not like that? That is one of your broadest statements yet. So do believe in whole-sale socialism? Can you point to a historic or current successful example of how you would employ that? P.S. Life isn't fair. Trying to make it 'fair' as defined by one section of society only makes it worse. Yes reforms are needed. History completely disagrees with you about increasing federal power. Never has an increasingly powerful centralized government resulted in higher liberty, freedom, and prosperity for it citizens. If I'm wrong about that please give me your examples. Once again. That's all WHAT material. WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THIS What is your logical backup for your stance? What are you basing your beliefs on? More. Ok. What exactly are the pitfalls that make conservative strategy worse? Are you happy with the last 3 years of liberal controlled government? You're happy with the economy? With the spending of your tax dollars? With the unity that the party of unity has brought to our country? If you cannot understand how that belief structure leads directly to tyranny, oppression and dictatorship, I can do nothing to help you. You are directly arguing for a communist society where "the state" is more important and more capable of deciding what is good for people than the individual people are. Please go live in a former eastern bloc country...not visit...LIVE IN for 6 months and you'll learn exactly how toxic that viewpoint is. What has led you to that conclusion? Where did modern hospitals, orphanages, adoption processes, welfare systems, vaccines, and mental health institutions come from? This is a violently ignorant and arrogantly bigoted (actual meaning of that word, not the modern liberal use of it) statement. Once again. It explains nothing of WHY you believe it. Why do you disagree? Please back up your statement. You sound very much like you listen to a lot of media...from whatever side. Here's what concerns me the most: American's that violently defend a stance of WHAT they believe while having NOT A SINGLE RATIONAL CLUE as to WHY the believe it. In the end, I think it's a lot of people who simply what to fight and stand up for "their side" without ever actually putting to brain bites into truly analyzing the facts behind "their side" and deciding if it make logical sense. Put differently: people want to passionately defend their side because if feels good. Understand the why behind that side is usually too intellectually challenging so they just skip it...turning themselves into what stalin call "useful idiots". Please don't be a useful idiot, regardless of what side you land on. Please tackle the why behind your stance. I have ask a LOT of why questions in order that I might truly understand what's behind your belief structure. I'm not getting a lot of solid feedback beyond some strongly defended talking points based on emotion and not fact. Still standing by for the answer to the WHY questions. Naaah. I really don’t see much value in going any more rounds with you. Imma go hang out bin the drindls & beer thread for a bit. 🍻 1
500Stable Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 2 hours ago, FourFans said: P.S. Life isn't fair. Trying to make it 'fair' as defined by one section of society only makes it worse. "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." I guess you forgot the first and most significant part of the Preamble to the Constitution. Life may not be fair, but we should always be striving to ensure we achieve "Liberty and Justice for all." What does Justice mean? Justice, in its broadest sense, is the concept that individuals are to be treated in a manner that is equitable and fair. This is what people fail to remember when they say "Life isn't fair" or "Fairness is socialism" or "DEI is racism". They forget that the very first objective the Preamble states is to "Establish Justice." Even if you interpret Justice in this context to mean Justice in the eyes of the law, that still requires fairness. I cringe at almost everything the modern Republican does these days since its goes directly against the Constitution. Diminish and seek to eradicate LGBTQ+ people? That's definitely establishing justice. Eliminate programs like DEI and the ultra scary "Critical Race Theory" that seek to highlight institutional discrimination? Lots of justice there. Create a state where armed individuals/cops can essentially kill whoever they want (especially minorities) while suffering 0 consequences? Definitely a more perfect Union with a ton of justice. Denying the outcome of a free and fair election without a shred of evidence to back-up any of their claims? Dang man, those Republicans really want Justice. I could go on and on with examples of Republicans ignoring the Constitution, much like how Fourfans just ignored Prozac's post and keeps asking him "Why, Why, Why", showing an excellent example of the start of the infinite regress fallacy. No matter what Prozac types, Fourfans will just keep asking him "Why" so he can attempt to win the online argument. This is a very common tactic that weak debaters use to defend their weak positions. Definitely not surprised to see it on this forum. 2 1 5
kaputt Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 43 minutes ago, 500Stable said: Justice, in its broadest sense, is the concept that individuals are to be treated in a manner that is equitable and fair. Ah there it is. The single most dangerous word in use in America today. You got the fairness part right, but there is nothing about Justice that has to be equitable. In fact there has been nothing in the founding of this country that has desired or guaranteed “equitable” outcomes. The left really struck a home run when they realized how easily equitable could be transposed for equality and use it to confuse the masses on what we should be striving for. Btw, here’s Cornell’s definition of justice. “Justice is the ethical, philosophical idea that people are to be treated impartially, fairly, properly, and reasonably by the law and by arbiters of the law, that laws are to ensure that no harm befalls another, and that, where harm is alleged, a remedial action is taken - both the accuser and the accused receive a morally right consequence merited by their actions.” The rest of your post is idiocy honestly. Cops killing anyone they want and eradicating LGBTQ people? Could you be more of a caricature of super leftest speak? 2
Biff_T Posted June 7, 2023 Posted June 7, 2023 2 hours ago, 500Stable said: This is a very common tactic that weak debaters use to defend their weak positions. Definitely not surprised to see it on this forum. Coming from a human who created a burner account to argue with Fourfans lol. Nerd.
HeloDude Posted June 8, 2023 Posted June 8, 2023 13 hours ago, ClearedHot said: Adjusted for population and as compared to the rest of Tennessee and the nation, some sad numbers emerge. The violent crime rate in Nashville is almost double the rate of the rest of Tennessee and nearly triple the national average. The property crime and other crimes categories follow the same trend. Nsplayr doesn’t even live in Nashville…he said he lives “near” Nashville. He doesn’t seem to like to respond to me, so someone should ask him why he doesn’t live in the city limits and also why he didn’t want to send his kids to Nashville public schools, you know, because they’re so great?
nsplayr Posted June 8, 2023 Posted June 8, 2023 29 minutes ago, HeloDude said: Nsplayr doesn’t even live in Nashville…he said he lives “near” Nashville. He doesn’t seem to like to respond to me, so someone should ask him why he doesn’t live in the city limits and also why he didn’t want to send his kids to Nashville public schools, you know, because they’re so great? I have you on mute bro, give it up. Engaging with you isn't fruitful. One-time exception because I'm a degenerate and enjoy banging my head against the wall apparently. We moved out of the city limits after 7+ years to be closer to my aging parents who had moved nearby. Even with them relatively close, it was annoyingly far for how often I wanted to be there to help them and spend time with them. Absolutely nothing about the city "drove" me away, as I'm sure you imagined in you're weird obsession with me and my life. I sent my older kid to a Nashville public school K-5 and it was great. My wife was a Nashville public school teacher as well. I miss our old walkable, urban neighborhood & our good friends, and we go back to visit often. Overall though, moving was the right decision for my family in the broader sense than just who lives inside my four walls. Now please feel free to have a nice life and stop @ing me.
HeloDude Posted June 8, 2023 Posted June 8, 2023 4 minutes ago, nsplayr said: I have you on mute bro, give it up. Engaging with you isn't fruitful. One-time exception because I'm a degenerate and enjoy banging my head against the wall apparently. Copy. I appreciate you response about Nashville. And honestly, I wish the best for your parents/family. 1
nsplayr Posted June 8, 2023 Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, ClearedHot said: As you know I have spent a LOT of time in Nashville and what you are saying is simply not true unless you are ignoring crime. Aside from lunatics detonating bomb laden RVs in the center of town you also have some other statistics that are counter to your assertion. In particular, violent crime is up year over year and increasing with homicide setting new records. Over the last decade homicide in Nashville is up a staggering 78%...hardly the utopian liberal hemp fest you are suggesting. Oh and according to current reports, after a 27% increase in 2019 and 2020, the 2023 homicide rate is up another 8.7% as compared to the same time in 2022...congrats! Adjusted for population and as compared to the rest of Tennessee and the nation, some sad numbers emerge. The violent crime rate in Nashville is almost double the rate of the rest of Tennessee and nearly triple the national average. The property crime and other crimes categories follow the same trend. I'm not sure where the stats from your paragraph are from, if you'd like to share I'll check out a link. Your graphs compared Nashville to the rest of the state, which is apples to oranges. You need to compare the same place in different years for a fair comparison. Crime (and life!) is obviously different in BFE than in downtown Manhattan. Here's what I know, based on the data the city provides. I didn't take the time to make a pretty graph because the data is provided in a table, as a PDF 🙄 Too much work for the dumbest hobby ever, forum posting. What I'm looking at is the crime per capita (per 100K residents) from 1963 through 2021, the latest year they provide data for. It can be found here. Crime per capita to me is the fairest measure because measure X in relation to measure Y is much more meaningful than measure X as just an absolute value. For example, there is absolutely no crime on the moon! Statistically it's the safest place you can live /sarcasm Some highlights: Total crime varied from a low of 3,188.9 in 1965 to a high of 11,146.0 in 1996. Recent numbers are 5,475.8 in 2020 and 5,080.0 in 2021. So total crime is now less than half of the peak worst year. Violent crime has been pretty stable since 1987 (the data before then is lower with a cliff-like step change between 1985 and 1987...I suspect there was a change in how violent crime was categorized before then). From 1987 - 2021, the low was 1,105.2 in 2019 and the high was 1,963.2 in 1996. So the safest year for violent crime in Nashville in nearly my whole lifetime was a year when I lived there! You mentioned murder, which is indeed up. Although "up" is from an aberrantly low level between 2010 and 2014. Murder bottomed out in 2014 at 6.5 and is troublingly back up to 14.8 in 2021. The peak high though was 20.3 in 1997, and the historical average over 59 years is 14.6, so we're basically back to exactly historical average. Needless to say even one murder is too many, and whatever we did to drive murder down for a few years, let's do it again! Property crime between 1963 and 2021 varied from a low of 2,885.7 in 1965 to a high of 9,183.8 in 1996. Man, 1996 was a terrible year for Nashville! Luckily in 2021 it's down to 3,836.8. This would all be more compelling with graphs vs random data vomited into a forum post, I get it, sorry. If you wanna TL;DR I don't blame you. Bottom line on bottom Crime per capita in Nashville is significantly lower now than in the mid-1990s. Total crime has been quite stable since 2013, locked in at that relatively lower level. Violent crime was the lowest it's been in a generation in 2019! My point: negativity against cities in right-wing circles is grossly overblown. The city I know best, where I lived for 7+ years and continue to live near, is a safe, prosperous, fun place to visit, work, and raise a family. The trends on crime here are either static or declining, and crime is much lower than when I was growing up in the 80s and 90s. YMMV with other cities, but if you wanna make the argument that a certain city is a dumpster fire shithole or some other hyperbolic BS, best bring receipts. Edited June 8, 2023 by nsplayr 1 1
TreeA10 Posted June 8, 2023 Posted June 8, 2023 48 minutes ago, lloyd christmas said: The next President is Nashville? I'd vote for Nashville over a stumbling, babbling elderly gentleman suffering from dementia. Getting them all on Air Force 1 should be entertaining.
ClearedHot Posted June 8, 2023 Posted June 8, 2023 11 hours ago, nsplayr said: I'm not sure where the stats from your paragraph are from, if you'd like to share I'll check out a link. Nashville.gov Nashville, TN Is Among the Most Dangerous US Metro Areas https://www.wkrn.com/news/local-news/nashville/violent-crime-rates-nashville-2022-report/ 11 hours ago, nsplayr said: Your graphs compared Nashville to the rest of the state, which is apples to oranges. You need to compare the same place in different years for a fair comparison. Crime (and life!) is obviously different in BFE than in downtown Manhattan. It is not apples to oranges. You have repeatedly stated all the big cities are run by democrats, that data (adjusted for population), clearly shows the rate of crime, especially violent crime is far higher when you live in an area controlled by democrats. Interestingly the 2022 election results by county directly correlates to that data set. 11 hours ago, nsplayr said: What I'm looking at is the crime per capita (per 100K residents) from 1963 through 2021, the latest year they provide data for. It can be found here. Crime per capita to me is the fairest measure because measure X in relation to measure Y is much more meaningful than measure X as just an absolute value. For example, there is absolutely no crime on the moon! Statistically it's the safest place you can live /sarcasm Ummm the graphs I posted are indeed population adjusted, Perhaps you didn't actually read them? 🤷♂️ You used data adjusted to 100K, the graphs I posted are more granular (FBI data sets), and are down to 1K. 11 hours ago, nsplayr said: Bottom line on bottom Bottomline - you assert Nashville has never been better, that simply is not true, especially the past four years. Your data set stops in 2021, the data I highlighted continues in to 2023. From your data and mine, yes some crime is down, but violent crime (the crap that matters to me), is way up, particularly over the past four years. Violent crime and murder are up 29%, I would invite you to focus on the bottom lines of the link YOU posted...notice the red? Walk the data out to current day. Violent crime, especially since the last election when the dems went soft on crime, is unsurprisingly way up. A very telling quote from the story WKRN did "This year was the third year there had been over 100 homicides reported in Davidson County by Dec. 24. It was an 82.8% increase compared to just 10 years ago when there were only 58 homicides reported." We both know Nashville is fast growing city, but the growth rate over the last ten years is 20.9% while the murder rate is up 82.8%. Doesn't sound better than ever to me... The FBI stats as of January stop at 2021 (no idea why it takes them so long), but as of 2020 Nashville was #41 in FBI ranking of most dangerous cities in the United States. Given violent crime is accelerating thanks to the radical Dem policy of "Defund the Police", it will be interesting to see how Nashville relates to other cities. 3
Jam Posted June 8, 2023 Posted June 8, 2023 55 minutes ago, ClearedHot said: It is not apples to oranges. You have repeatedly stated all the big cities are run by democrats, that data (adjusted for population), clearly shows the rate of crime, especially violent crime is far higher when you live in an area controlled by democrats. Interestingly the 2022 election results by county directly correlates to that data set. I'm glad you bring up rate of crime, since it shows just how equally prevalent (if not more so) violent crime is in areas that vote red. Interesting enough, your own source you cite ( Nashville, TN Is Among the Most Dangerous US Metro Areas ) lists dozens of republican run cities with far higher rates than Nashville. Sure Memphis is #1, but I lost count of the GOP run cities on that list not to mention Anchorage with a violent crime rate almost double that of Nashville. Not even trying to blame it on Republicans, just pointing out that correlating crime rates to the political party that runs the city is a fallacy and a pointless argument. 1
Prozac Posted June 8, 2023 Posted June 8, 2023 1 hour ago, ClearedHot said: that data (adjusted for population), clearly shows the rate of crime, especially violent crime is far higher when you live in an area controlled by democrats. Correlation does not equal causation. Crime rates have always been higher in large cities, regardless of who was in charge. Look, I won’t argue with you that some ultra liberal policies have had negative consequences (homeless encampments, open drug use, etc). I share many of those sentiments and would like to see change (and I am seeing some positive movement in certain areas). But your statement above is pure fallacy.
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