The Next President is...

[tac airlifter]

19 hours ago, brickhistory said:

I ask this seriously, no snark or point scoring intended:  were you aware, and if so, were you cool with Obama ordering the Hellfiring of an American citizen and his 16 year old son, even though the guy was a terrorist?  He had no due process other than a Situation Room briefing that said, "he's a bad guy."  

I'm not sorry the guy's dead, but I said then, and do now, that it was wrong.

As to your "equal branch" point, I almost agree.  Supreme Court = POTUS = full Congress vote.

I don't agree that a district court should be able to impose a nationwide anything regardless of what political party occupies the other branches.  So I hope the Supreme Court finally ends that practice once and for all.  Will be better for all.

As to a mass invasion and due process, that's a thing.  I don't have a complete answer.  But if Biden can arbitrarily let them in, why can't Trump boot them out?  Biden granted "paroles" and "temporary refugee" status to hundreds of thousands of Haitians, et al.  Why can't Trump remove that grant?

Point of order: the 16-year-old son was not specifically targeted but was armed & at dinner with multiple named objectives. Also, he was killed by GBU54 is not a hellfire.  Also, whoever found/fixed then lazed those bombs did not know the 16-year-old son was there, but had they known they would have killed him anyway 🇺🇸⚔️

[brickhistory]

1 hour ago, tac airlifter said:

Point of order: the 16-year-old son was not specifically targeted but was armed & at dinner with multiple named objectives. Also, he was killed by GBU54 is not a hellfire.  Also, whoever found/fixed then lazed those bombs did not know the 16-year-old son was there, but had they known they would have killed him anyway 🇺🇸⚔️

Valid point of order.

But no due process for lethal punishment for two American citizens.

Again, well done to those carrying out the mission.  The planet is a better place with both the dad and the kid gone.

But no whining about an MS-13'er with multiple violent charges being sent back to his point of origin by mistake.  Any other country not in the US was valid according to the judge's original deportation order.  

[Lord Ratner]

I'm not sure I agree with the interpretation that illegals are subject to due process *for deportation.*

 

Wanna put them in prison? Yep, they get the chance to appear in court. But deportation is simply the cessation of illegal occupation. Like I said before, no American gets due process before the cops can stop you from actively committing a crime. 

 

I believe in following the supreme court, but I'm not sure I agree with the ruling. This issue (and several others) needs a full hearing by SCOTUS.

[Banzai]

Peoples lives are being shattered and destroyed by a mere allegation. Some are true and some are false. Some are old and some are new. There is no recovery for someone falsely accused - life and career are gone. Is there no such thing any longer as Due Process?

[uhhello]

What's funny is all of a sudden seeing all the articles written about foreginers getting the business at the border entries about their intentions and what not.  Those complaining have definitely not traveled outside the US.  Standard practice in ANY other country.

[Lawman]

What's funny is all of a sudden seeing all the articles written about foreginers getting the business at the border entries about their intentions and what not.  Those complaining have definitely not traveled outside the US.  Standard practice in ANY other country.

Yeah but we put a poem at the base of a big statue we were gifted so that’s like law or something…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Day Man]

3 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

I'm not sure I agree with the interpretation that illegals are subject to due process *for deportation.*

how do you know they're illegal?

[BFM this]

1 hour ago, Day Man said:

how do you know they're illegal?

That would be, in essence, the extent of the process that they are due.  An officer in the field should be able to investigate and determine legal status fairly easily.  I can prove my legal status lickety split...I get to stay.  This idea that every alien should get hearings ad infinitum is absurd.

[disgruntledemployee]

27 minutes ago, BFM this said:

That would be, in essence, the extent of the process that they are due.  An officer in the field should be able to investigate and determine legal status fairly easily.  I can prove my legal status lickety split...I get to stay.  This idea that every alien should get hearings ad infinitum is absurd.

Unless you're born in East LA

 

 

[Lord Ratner]

4 hours ago, Day Man said:

how do you know they're illegal?

Buddy have you ever met a legal immigrant? My mother immigrated here in '61 and she still remembers her identification number. You think you just get a high five at the border and you're an American? There's documentation, paperwork, IDs.

 

"Prove you are here legally. You can use any of the many forms you were provided during your immigration, or just give us your information and we can look you up"

 

"Uhhh...."

 

It is remarkable how dumb everybody is willing to play rather than just admit this is a no-brainer.

[Banzai]

Narrator: “In this forum, you can watch active and retired military officers who have sworn an oath to the constitution and American institutions pontificate that the 5th/14th amendments and decades of legal precedent around them are okay to be ignored if it’s in the interest of their political goals. Fascinating!”

 

“Even one whose presence in this country is unlawful, involuntary, or transitory is entitled to that constitutional protection.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/426/67

“It is true that aliens who have once passed through our gates, even illegally, may be expelled only after proceedings conforming to traditional standards of fairness encompassed in due process of law.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/345/206

It’s not about supporting or not supporting MS-13 gang members - you guys are presenting an entirely false dilemma. It’s about supporting the constitutional right to due process.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Edited Wednesday at 12:03 PM by Banzai

[brickhistory]

So, again, Obama offe'd an American and his son, however bad, on nothing more than his say-so.

Deporting an illegal seems much less drastic if designated a national threat.

Tell me again about precedent.

[arg]

Now we have to define "due process of law".

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, Banzai said:

Narrator: “In this forum, you can watch active and retired military officers who have sworn an oath to the constitution and American institutions pontificate that the 5th/14th amendments and decades of legal precedent around them are okay to be ignored if it’s in the interest of their political goals. Fascinating!”

 

“Even one whose presence in this country is unlawful, involuntary, or transitory is entitled to that constitutional protection.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/426/67

“It is true that aliens who have once passed through our gates, even illegally, may be expelled only after proceedings conforming to traditional standards of fairness encompassed in due process of law.”

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/345/206

It’s not about supporting or not supporting MS-13 gang members - you guys are presenting an entirely false dilemma. It’s about supporting the constitutional right to due process.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

"We consider the underlying fallacy of the plaintiff’s argument to consist in the assumption that the enforced separation of the two races stamps the colored race with a badge of inferiority. If this be so, it is not by reason of anything found in the act, but solely because the colored race chooses to put that construction upon it… The argument also assumes that social prejudice may be overcome by legislation, and that equal rights cannot be secured except by an enforced commingling of the two races… If the civil and political rights of both races be equal, one cannot be inferior to the other civilly or politically. If one race be inferior to the other socially, the Constitution of the United States cannot put them upon the same plane."

 

Precedent changes. We've had several very good examples of that recently. I can only speak for myself, but I am not advocating the Trump administration violate supreme Court ruling. I am advocating that they get the bad rulings fixed... And they will be fixed. The law always has a funny way of conforming to reality.

 

 

[HeloDude]

Progressives are now pro-Constitution, unless it’s the 1A, 2A, 10A…

[tac airlifter]

2 hours ago, Banzai said:

It’s not about supporting or not supporting MS-13 gang members - you guys are presenting an entirely false dilemma. It’s about supporting the constitutional right to due process.

GMAFB, you are presenting the false dilemma: treat an unprecedented mass of illegal murderous gang members with the same deliberate protections of law provided citizens or we cannot maintain the constitution.  I reject your premise.

Is there any doubt how our founding fathers would've handled this situation?  They were actively driving out the natives & preventing additional British colonists from staying; it was obvious to those who wrote the constitution how/when "due process" applies and who is eligible.  Yet now we're arguing to obey the  constitution we have to do the opposite of what the authors intended?  

2 hours ago, Banzai said:

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Go with your opinion on the mandatory Covid vaccine, forced closure of churches & arrests of people engaging in the free exercise of religion during that time, assault weapons bans, sham trials for J6, FISA court abuses....

[BashiChuni]

14 hours ago, Day Man said:

how do you know they're illegal?

uh lets start with the ones that were arrested crossing the border ILLEGALLY then released into the country. genius.

[SpeedOfHeat]

1 hour ago, HeloDude said:

Progressives are now pro-Constitution, unless it’s the 1A, 2A, 10A…

Conservatives are now pro-Constitution, unless their dear leader calls for “the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution.”  lol

[HeloDude]

30 minutes ago, SpeedOfHeat said:

Conservatives are now pro-Constitution, unless their dear leader calls for “the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution.”  lol

So you’re now supporting any American being able to own whatever weapon they want and no background check required?  Trust me, I’m all for going full Libertarian (yes, the party and its platform) if that’s where we can go, but if not, let’s not pretend the leftists actually ever cared about the Constitution. 

[Lord Ratner]

1 minute ago, HeloDude said:

So you’re now supporting any American being able to own whatever weapon they want and no background check required?  Trust me, I’m all for going full Libertarian (yes, the party and its platform) if that’s where we can go, but if not, let’s not pretend the leftists actually ever cared about the Constitution. 

True, under a libertarian system we would refuse medical and educational services to the illegal immigrants, which would alleviate a good portion of the problem. 

 

I doubt that would appease the left 🤷🏻‍♂️

[ClearedHot]

15 hours ago, Day Man said:

how do you know they're illegal?

Kilmar Abrego Garcia admitted he came here illegally...what more do you need?

[blueingreen]

What confuses me is the people acting like the Trump administration would be crossing some kind of Rubicon if they went ahead with these expedited deportations to combat an unprecedent illegal immigration crisis anyway. I'm not advocating for it, but the guardrails of the Constitution have been ignored many, many times. Japanese internment, COINTELPRO, NSA mass surveillance, Lincoln suspending Habeas Corpus, just to name a few.

Today, we view Japanese internment and similar actions as dark chapters in our history. However, there isn't a lot of public outcry over Lincoln's unconstitutional actions. In fact, he's widely considered to be a national hero. I think it scares a lot of people to acknowledge this kind of historical asymmetry because it implies that, on occasion, violating the law in pursuit of "the greater good" is sometimes excusable. And if you acknowledge that, the bigger question of "what constitutes the greater good?" arises (good luck answering that one!).

[kaputt]

The tit for tat is kind of funny to me. 
 

Neither side is upholding any sort of standard. The left is completely out to lunch with its wild progressivism and violent activism. And the Republican Party, with Trump, now somehow whole heartedly supports policies that would have incensed “conservatives” not all that long ago. Sweeping tariffs, large spending bills, now we want to pay people $5000 per baby they have?

To me, the Trump years will go down as one of the biggest wasted opportunities to have center right leadership in this country. 

 

[viper154]

If you are here illegally and are being deported but not charged, what due process is required? If you land somewhere and don’t have the correct visa you (hopefully) aren’t arrested and don’t get a trial. You get denied entry to the country and told to fly your plane back to where you came from. Same principle applies. Want to send em to prison, ya you need a trial. Send them back to where to they came from? Seeeya. 

This ain’t that hard. 

[blueingreen]

1 hour ago, kaputt said:

To me, the Trump years will go down as one of the biggest wasted opportunities to have center right leadership in this country. 

Just gonna piggy-back off this to start a little rant, don't mind me @kaputt. Many of Trump's trade / tariff policies certainly seem impulsive and short-sighted, I just don't have the economic expertise to propose an optimal alternative, and at a certain point you just need to make a leap of faith when electing a president and hope he surrounds himself with intelligent and talented people who can help steer the ship in the right direction. 

It's clear that what we've been doing for the past 30+ years isn't working; We've hollowed out our industrial capacity, offshored American jobs, and undercut domestic labor from both ends with H1B and illegal labor. We're also leaking tons of money in the form of foreign remittances. As for principled conservatism and "center-right leadership", what have they even accomplished in the 21st century? They sat idly by and conserved absolutely nothing while our country and culture was ravaged by radical progressivism. I was just listening to the oral arguments for the Supreme Court case involving LGBT books in classrooms this morning and couldn't help but think about how far down this slope we've slipped. First it was "Leave us gay folks alone and let us do what we please in the privacy of our bedroom," which seemed fair enough. Then it was "Bake the cake for us, you Christian bigot!" After that it became "Let my son compete against your daughter in the swim meet / wrestling tournament / etc. you transphobe!" And now we're at the point where the Supreme Court is going to decide if parents have the right to opt out of school lessons on drag queens. It seems like the LGBT people can't leave everyone else alone.

I'm simply a man of the Right, and the right-leaning politicians we've elected in the recent past haven't done enough to reject the fundamentally erroneous premises that the Left has foisted upon us during their cultural ascendancy and tenure in power. I reject the premise that my country is an economic zone for the world's tired masses to benefit from. I reject the premise that every man, woman, and child on this planet is an American waiting to be "documented". People aren't owed access to my home just because it's better than the shithole they came from. The Overton Window has shifted rightwards more in the past 6 months than in the 25 years preceding that, and it wasn't because of principled conservatives like Romney, Ryan, or the Bushes. 

Edited Wednesday at 08:38 PM by blueingreen