The Next President is...

[Prozac]

One thing we know for sure is that the Russians and other actors such as China, Iran, and North Korea have a vested interest in fomenting division and unrest in the United States. They used social media to great effect in the 2016 election to do just that and it appears that they are having even greater success this year. I’ve been vocal on which side I believe they’ve actively helped along, but I don’t think you have to take a partisan angle to realize that Americans of all ilks are being manipulated here. We’re all ready to be outraged at the “other side” and a few we’ll placed memes or bots are all it currently takes to fracture us. This is probably our greatest weakness as a nation right now and no one, not the politicians, not the media, not your liberal/conservative friends on Facebook, no one seems to be really taking the threat seriously. We have differences, some serious, but we should recognize that those differences are currently being exploited by outside actors, determined to bring the United States down to their own level. We the people need to get savvy to this threat and ask ourselves as we engage with one another whether our rhetoric and our tone are helping to advance outside interests. Not saying we all have to agree on everything and sing kumbaya in a drum circle in the forest, but we have got to wrap our heads around the fact that Blue America and Red America will fail on their own and that the only way forward is, as it’s always been, the United States of America. 

[Sua Sponte]

A lot of people here should probably watch this and do some self-reflection.

https://www.netflix.com/title/81254224

[dream big]

1 hour ago, Homestar said:

I liked this Frontline doc. It attempts to explain why Trump and Biden are the way they are. 
 

BL: I can respect Biden as a man even though I may disagree with his politics. I can’t respect Trump, and his politics are whatever serves Trump best in the moment. 

Do you respect him constantly sniffing women and making racist remarks? 

[Sua Sponte]

35 minutes ago, Kiloalpha said:

I don’t honestly know. David Duke and the KKK historically are Democratic. But there’s a good shot that guy is a Republican as well. 

But it seems like both parties have came out against it, so it’s not a great parallel. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.courier-journal.com/amp/5254313002

By historically democratic, you mean the Democrats of the 1960s, which are really today's GOP? He's apparently the leader of the local "Three Percenters" group, so there lies your answer. David Duke also ran as a Republican during the 1992 Presidential Election. 

Both parties came out about some dude tying a noose around an effigy of the governor, on the state capitol grounds? Shocking 😂 

https://www.lex18.com/news/covering-kentucky/rep-maddox-responds-to-beshear-ky-democratic-party

[Sua Sponte]

39 minutes ago, dream big said:

Do you respect him constantly sniffing women and making racist remarks? 

 

[Homestar]

41 minutes ago, dream big said:

Do you respect him constantly sniffing women and making racist remarks? 

More than the guy who just straight up grabs them by the pussy? Yes. 

[slackline]

Yeah, I’ve heard that comparison before and it kind of feels right, but on examination doesn’t work. The Boston Tea Party was done in a targeted manner. They were fighting the Tea Act, so they went and threw a shipment of tea in the water when no one was looking as a form of protest. They didn’t burn the ships. They didn’t attack the captains.
I don’t see the relatability in looting a Foot Locker, or a Target, or burning down a random bar on a street. The looters today are saying “who cares, they have insurance.” It’s not targeted. It’s just advantageous folks looting to take things, and burning down places of no direct consequence. Vastly different to 1773.
There’s a bit of virtue in some colonists who have warned the Governor in Boston to remove the last ship of British tea... but refuses... so you go and toss it into the sea instead.
I don’t see the virtue in torching a random car park. I don’t see it in forcing customers at a restaurant to leave by flipping tables or making them chant your slogan. I sure as hell don’t see it when they’re looting a store and carrying out 65” TVs because “this ensures people eat tonight.” Sure, that’s why the grocery store isn’t touched.
POC have a right to be upset, but they’re hurting the wrong people. Democrats have ruled the urban areas which contain the vast majority of them, and what’s that given them? No school choice, a lack of entrepreneurial opportunities and a decaying familial structure. Start there before you break out the Molotov cocktails.
- All good, I’m struggling with the damn phone as well. Thanks for engaging in honest dialogue.

Good response. This discussion is what we need.

Here's a problem I see with your response, maybe I read it wrong, but you can clear it up. You completely ignored what I said about the looting. That is what I'm talking about on here. Things are cherry picked in the responses to facilitate one side of the argument. By replying in the way you did, it implies the other side agrees with the point you're arguing against.

Riots, not looting are an ugly, unfortunate part of a democracy. A last resort to a people that feels left with no other options. Tea Party was not looting. I don't approve of or condone attacks on federal buildings, but that is a better option than attacking the local community.

If you pay attention to the leadership of the social justice movement, they don't condone looting or violence at all. They are pleading with people to keep things peaceful.

You say there's a bit of virtue with the colonists. I agree. There's also some virtue when POC have pointed to problems in the system, countless datasets that back up their claims, and gotten responses like, "pull yourself up by the bootstraps whiner, and point to some example of a POC who did. That's so ignorant. That's ignoring the insurmountable odds most face. That's like saying, work hard in practice, and you'll make the NFL (very loose comparison). Yes, it's possible, but it's ignoring just how difficult it is in reality.

And you're kidding yourself if you think the numbers of racists on the right and left are equal. Of course there are some in both sides, but go look at the data that exists in hate groups. Not really any on the left.

Now I can see it already. Someone will cherry pick what I just said to point to and say "slackline said attacking fed bldgs is okay" completely ignoring everything else that has been said. If that makes you (not Kiloalpha specifically) feel better, well, like I said, people so firmly in their camp can't be reasoned with...


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[Sim]

[Breckey]

Replace racist with communist and you have the conservative playbook.

[dream big]

1 hour ago, Homestar said:

More than the guy who just straight up grabs them by the pussy? Yes. 

Hey man, I’m not going to sit here and say that Trump is a saint.  But you can’t sit there and criticize the morality of Trump while claiming Biden is a “decent man.”  Most intelligent Trump supporters would never try to convince you that Trump is some kind of saint, but in a government where most politicians are scumbags, we will take his policies which even his most ardent opponents would agree have been beneficial for the country.  

[Homestar]

5 minutes ago, dream big said:

Hey man, I’m not going to sit here and say that Trump is a saint.  But you can’t sit there and criticize the morality of Trump while claiming Biden is a “decent man.”  Most intelligent Trump supporters would never try to convince you that Trump is some kind of saint, but in a government where most politicians are scumbags, we will take his policies which even his most ardent opponents would agree have been beneficial for the country.  

Damn right he’s no saint. He’s a piece of shit. I’ll give him credit for appointing strong conservative judges and not expanding war in the Middle East. But I wouldn’t follow him out the front door if my house were on fire. 

[Negatory]

1 hour ago, Kiloalpha said:

I think the return question is misleading in that you’re referring to Charlottesville, an event in which Republicans in general (and the President, but let’s not make that the sticking point) condemned almost immediately. Since then, when’s the Klan burnt down businesses and attacked cops?

Another standard tactic is to write small “mistruths” into your statements that you hope are close enough to reality that you can just slightly shift the narrative.

https://apnews.com/article/eb4b472fe89b4128990502b2b9e9e581

“Immediate” and clear are the opposite of what happened.

Here, this is from a piece of liberal hippy literature:

”And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed — if all records told the same tale — then the lie passed into history and became truth.”

[N730]

Replace racist with communist and you have the conservative playbook.

Don't bother interacting with him. All he does is post shitty memes that add nothing to the conversation.

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[Seadogs]

That's too bad your side is shooting cops and is OK with it. Perception is the riots are getting mostly violent more often than not and the country is getting sick of it. Have fun losing again in 2020, repeating the same bullshit you have for the past 4 years.

[slackline]

That's too bad your side is shooting cops and is OK with it. Perception is the riots are getting mostly violent more often than not and the country is getting sick of it. Have fun losing again in 2020, repeating the same bullshit you have for the past 4 years.

Possibly one of the dumbest things said here.


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[Seadogs]

Oh yeah, also when your side repeatedly and constantly calls black men uncle tom's when they aren't inline with the the leftist group think, women who vote for Trump aren't real women, and gays/LGBT who vote Trump are deplorable, you defeat your own cause. Constantly going against the Constitution, using arms of the government as clubs against the other side, I can go on and on. We were already sick of you in 2016, it's going to be much worst for you in 2020. The silent majority is real and we are all sick of your bullshit. 

[N730]

Oh yeah, also when your side repeatedly and constantly calls black men uncle tom's when they aren't inline with the the leftist group think, women who vote for Trump aren't real women, and gays/LGBT who vote Trump are deplorable, you defeat your own cause. Constantly going against the Constitution, using arms of the government as clubs against the other side, I can go on and on. We were already sick of you in 2016, it's going to be much worst for you in 2020. The silent majority is real and we are all sick of your bullshit. 

Bro, chill out.

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[Lord Ratner]

2 hours ago, slackline said:

1. Riots, not looting are an ugly, unfortunate part of a democracy. A last resort to a people that feels left with no other options. Tea Party was not looting. I don't approve of or condone attacks on federal buildings, but that is a better option than attacking the local community.

2. If you pay attention to the leadership of the social justice movement, they don't condone looting or violence at all. They are pleading with people to keep things peaceful.

3. And you're kidding yourself if you think the numbers of racists on the right and left are equal. Of course there are some in both sides, but go look at the data that exists in hate groups. Not really any on the left.

1. The numbers of single, childless, and in many cases white young adults participating in the riots indicates more that just hopelessness. Given a green light to destroy, many will.

2. Which leaders? Many of the thought leaders on the left, cited and lauded by media and political figures, are doing no such pleading. And I'm not sure a single (D) politician has condemned Antifa. How many Republicans have condemned the white supremacists? (All of them, including Trump, who is awful).

3. When you define racism as "far right" it becomes hard to find racist leftists. If you include "the soft bigotry of low expectations," as Sowell describes, the left is overwhelmingly racist. It doesn't help that we are redefining racism to fit a progressive narrative.

 

Couple all this with the fact that the data completely disproves the narrative of systemic police racism targeting and killing black people, and the whole thing becomes impossible to resolve.

 

You can not, under any circumstances, have a productive discourse if the facts are treated like lies, or worse, if presenting the facts makes you racist. Unfortunately, the public figures of "your side" are not engaging honestly in the debate, as you are. 

[Seadogs]

20 minutes ago, N730 said:

Bro, chill out.

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Nah. Conservatives and the right have been way too quiet for way too long. All of your news media outlets spout constant lies and divides the country. Tell your side to chill out shooting cops and burning cities, bro. 

[slackline]

Nah. Conservatives and the right have been way too quiet for way too long. All of your news media outlets spout constant lies and divides the country. Tell your side to chill out shooting cops and burning cities, bro. 

I'm sure this is ok. You sound well adjusted. Tell cops to stop shooting people.

You see how dumb it sounds when baseless allegations are thrown around without proof. Especially with the vitriol you seem to be spewing...


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[budderbar]

4 hours ago, Kiloalpha said:

I think the return question is misleading in that you’re referring to Charlottesville, an event in which Republicans in general (and the President, but let’s not make that the sticking point) condemned almost immediately. Since then, when’s the Klan burnt down businesses and attacked cops?

 

Apparently, during the Floyd riots/looting. 

“Man who helped ignite George Floyd riots identified as white supremacist: Police” 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536
 

[Sua Sponte]

1 hour ago, N730 said:

Don't bother interacting with him. All he does is post shitty memes that add nothing to the conversation.

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Who? There’s a few of them here that do that 😂 

[Seadogs]

47 minutes ago, slackline said:

I'm sure this is ok. You sound well adjusted. Tell cops to stop shooting people.

You see how dumb it sounds when baseless allegations are thrown around without proof. Especially with the vitriol you seem to be spewing...


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Do you know BLM and Antifa are left wing organizations that have Democrat support? 

 

And they aren't baseless allegations, they are facts. 2 Louisville cops were shot during riots for Breonna Taylor. Minneapolis, Kenosha, Portland, and I'm sure many other leftist cities are burning because of these riots, which are conducted by BLM and Antifa. 

[slackline]

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/23/trump-biden-first-debate-420189

Ok, so I get that you will say it's Politico, so it's "fake news" but you guys keep letting "seadog" or whatever open his trap, so I think it should be allowed. Also, I want to restate something I've said many times, I think Biden is also despicable, just not as gross as Trump. Goes without saying that Pelosi and her ilk are also just abhorrent people.

That being said, these are quotes from the Trump team. Not spun, just their words. The guy they've been trying to say has dementia is somehow an amazing debater according to them now. Just funny stuff. Not really looking to prove points here. Gotta inform yourself reading Fox and Politico right? Otherwise you can't make informed decisions...


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[slackline]

I guess I did conflate the two of them. 

Maybe it would help to define a “riot?”

I’m lazy, so Google says it’s “a violent disturbance of the peace by a crowd.” Which basically means a protest turned violent.

I’d argue that’s happened in all systems throughout history, but hasn’t been particularly effective in the US to push change. 

Other than the Boston Tea Party, what “riot” has caused positive change? Definitely wasn’t Shay’s Rebellion, the Pennsylvania mutiny, or more recently the Detroit riots or the LA riots. In the latter two examples, I’d definitely say it made things worse.

Here’s where I think we’re seeing different things. Former NYC BLM leader Hank Newsome is ok with violence: 

"For a country that drops bombs on people, for a country that incarcerates people, for a country that enslaves people -- to criticize us for vandalism is preposterous," said Newsome.

"I think that it is a tool of white supremacy to say if you want freedom, then you get it by protesting peacefully," said Newsome.

"Why is it a tool of white supremacy?" he concluded. "Because the white supremacists who built this country never earned anything peacefully. They did it through bullets and blood. And that's the American way."

Maybe we can look at this leader saying he’s going to “put cops in their graves.” https://mobile.twitter.com/BrendonLeslie/status/1299896694088388609

I’ve shared a few counter-examples, I’d like to see these social justice folks you mention who are calling for an end to violence. Not being an ass, I literally haven’t seen any and it very well could be my own omission.

The argument that the system is racist is based on one thing. Statistical unequal outcomes for people of color, and some of those data points do exist. However, they don’t tell a full picture. Asian-Americans are kicking everyone’s ass in pretty much everything. Do we burn down their businesses? I guess while folks don’t mind them? How about first and second generation immigrants who are black, who graduate from college more often than white people, and have a higher average income than whites?

At a certain point, you start questioning the variables put in the equation, not the equation itself. Otherwise, white people are doing a shit job of maintaining a system that only works for them.

School choice, reduction in minimum wage, increase in trade school funding, preventative policing... all are things that can sway the end output wildly. Yet are never given a chance... often from black politicians who have a D beside their name. It’s a lot of self-harm, and some perpetuation of victimhood. Poor white people have it as well, but it’s institutionalized to a degree in the black community, which pains me to no end. So much talent and potential wasted... because if they study hard, or do well in school, or get that good job they’re “acting white.” I don’t give a shit what skin color you are, let’s chase dreams together. The ability to do that is why this country is unlike any in history. But instead, they cut people’s hopes at birth by telling them they’ll never be anything because of something they can’t control.

Racism exists. Go to a bar in Boston and listen to some of the working-class union guys. They’ll drop the n-word and racial jokes like it’s nothing. NYC? Just as bad. It’s a different kind of racism. They aren’t burning crosses, flying the rebel flag or wearing white robes, but they harbor some of the same ideas. It’s a softer racism on the left. I’ll give you that.

I don’t think you’re advocating for violence. You’re just trying to figure this shit out like everyone else.

Edit: I see copying/posting from the Notes app makes the font larger and darker. I’m not passively-aggressively yelling, just technology illiterate.

Thanks for the calmly worded and thoughtful response.

I do think, your citing of Hank Newsom is slightly taken out of context. When you pull out the “sound bite” it does, indeed, appear horrible. He was making a larger point about what he perceived to be hypocrisy of a country that does, in fact, affect change pretty much any where it wants, through violent means. I think he’s taking a fairly narrow minded view on it, but consider his life experience. He’s ignorant (literal definition) to geopolitics, so his fairly undeveloped take on it could be understood. https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-leader-if-change-doesnt-happen-we-will-burn-down-this-system/ I’ve posted a link to an article that includes the full text of what he said. I had to go find it, had not read it before.

It took literally long enough to type it into Google and start reading results.

Here’s another from USAToday https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fact-check-democrats-have-condemned-violence-linked-protests/3317862001/ It quotes a bunch of people with D next to their names as condemning violence and looting.


https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-violence-in-america-new-data-for-summer-2020/ 93% of BLM protests have been peaceful. Trump admin and allies have labeled them all as violent anarchists. That doesn’t check.

https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-black-lives-matter-leaders-condemn-violence-and-vandalism-at-protests
Another instance of BLM leadership condemning violence. There’s more. Left leaning and right leaning media all have reported on the same stories. Does this fit the narrative people are putting out about violence? Nope, so let’s ignore it.

The Asian American comparison you make isn’t quite apples to apples. https://journalnow.com/news/state/white-supremacists-took-over-a-city-now-nc-is-doing-more-to-remember-the-deadly/article_a9d267b6-4b8c-5710-8548-c6c40af495a4.html If you haven’t heard of this, I encourage you to read up on it. Tell me, at what point have Asian Americans ever faced this level of oppression? I’m not saying they’ve had an easy road to hoe in the US, but it doesn’t compare to hundreds of years of oppression.

I’m not calling you racist, or anyone here for that matter. I am saying that the system has biases. Ignoring that hurts us all, makes it difficult to as you say, chase these dreams together. I agree with that sentiment 100%! I’m just saying if we calmly have this kind of discussion, it becomes more difficult to deny that. Rejecting the idea out of hand doesn’t mean someone is racist, but it COULD (did caps cause I don’t know how to do italics) mean someone is afraid to admit they’re wrong, or pride is preventing them from seeing that. You could easily make the same argument for 1st gen African Americans. I think you hit the nail on the head here. From birth almost, they’re told they can’t do it. Often self-inflicted, but virtually always, based in their experiences. Almost every black person I know has had a scary encounter with police. Being pulled over for them and us is a totally different experience. Take a second on Google and you can find a bunch of examples of violent, aggressive white people not getting shot or tased while interacting with a cop. I myself have been stupidly belligerent with cops that have been power tripping, and never felt threatened. Not excusing my actions, but it is something that even 5 years ago I would have considered a non-issue. Now, I genuinely (from my perspective) see it as a result of biases in cops. Even proven to exist in black cops. They’re prone to consider a black person as a threat before given an actual reason for it.

Remember, yes, more white people are stopped by police, but they make up ~70% of population vs. ~13 % of black people. The ratios of police violence/use of force when you take those numbers into account are pretty one-sided. Then if you break it down even more, white people are in most cases 2x more likely to be carrying a weapon, drugs, or actually guilty of a crime when being stopped by police. None of this excuses violent criminals’ actions, but to me, it sure makes it difficult to calmly accept the level of “threat” black people are treated with by police.
Read these studies or don’t, your call:
https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2009/06/HLC104_crop.pdf

https://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1882&context=articles

https://www.nap.edu/read/24928/chapter/9

I am not sure where the North vs South argument with regards to racism came from. I didn’t make it, nor am I advocating that there are none in the North. I’m not naive, of course there are. Anyone who has read any history knows that the North doesn’t have a clear conscience when it comes to racism simply because they banned slavery sooner. Anecdotally, my experience has shown a much harsher version of racism in the south than it has in the north. Scary at times even. That’s simply my experience though, so meh...

Here’s where I probably lose more diehard conservatives. I’m not talking forced readings of White Fragility, THAT’S STUPID. I’m saying it’s not enough to simply not be racist anymore. We need to actively be anti-racist. Here’s my definition of that (haven’t looked it up): internally examining ourselves for biases that may shade our judgments, calling out injustices where we see/hear it (something I think most military people are good at), and looking at the system with an objective, not subjective eye to see if there are changes that need to be made.


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