The Next President is...

[Prosuper]

On 2/6/2021 at 3:46 PM, Prosuper said:

Wordy article from Time admitting that Trump was right about the election.  https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/

I have read this many times, my own conclusion is that the elites more or less think the American people are morons . So they think for the greater good, their good not ours, to save the country at all costs from the morons. We are much too stupid to decide for ourselves. Unfortunately now we now have half the population who thinks Joe Biden is a stooge for the elites and have a amoral  VP who gave sexual favors to get her start in politics a heart beat away from being #47. 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Prosuper
content

[pawnman]

So...what do we think this will do to Biden support among the teachers unions? 

Biden calls closed schools a "national emergency "

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by pawnman

[jazzdude]

So...what do we think this will do to Biden support among the teachers unions? 
Biden calls closed schools a "national emergency "
 

Well, we're about to find out if Biden believes in an events based timeline, or a campaign promise schedule based timeline.

I think any loss of support from teachers unions will be more than made up from elsewhere. Plus, it's not like the Republicans will treat the teachers unions any better after the next election anyways.

[Pooter]

16 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Barely missed? His own vice president shot him down. He lost in every court his legal team entered. It's amazing how we always seem to be on the precipice of catastrophe, yet never fall over the edge. Perhaps we're not as close as our emotions, and political puppeteers, lead us to believe.

You don't think having an armed mob storm the capitol to interfere with the certification of a democratic election counts as "falling over the edge?"  Something tells me if it was antifa who did it, you would. 
 

[ClearedHot]

The honeymoon is over Joe, now you have to answer to your communist base.  This week the far left is holding Joe's feet to the fire on such wonderful issues as:

1.  $15 minimum wage which will crush already struggling small businesses and cost a CBO estimated 1.4 Million jobs.

2.  Government payments to Illegals...WTF!

3.  Bernie openly bashing what your cohorts in Congress have proposed for stimulus eligibility.

 

[arg]

Leaked video of opening statement for impeachment trial

 

[Lord Ratner]

10 hours ago, Pooter said:

You don't think having an armed mob storm the capitol to interfere with the certification of a democratic election counts as "falling over the edge?"  Something tells me if it was antifa who did it, you would. 
 

No, I sure don't. And I've never once claimed that Antifa had us close to collapse. Nor the race riots. 

 

Anyone who claims we are close to the edge for *any* reason is simply wrong. There were no tanks rolling on the capitol, no politicians arrested, no process undone. Congress was back in session in a matter of hours.

 

Despite the fact that our political betters have convinced most of their constituencies that the other half of the country is a threat to their existence, it's never been a better time to be alive, and that applies to all demographics. 

 

The false depiction of a looming apocalypse is exactly the fear mongering tactic politicians are using to generate donations and votes. The side effect of it's making us hate our neighbors. Long term it may be a self fulfilling prophecy, but in the short term we are nowhere close to catastrophe.

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

Anyone who claims we are close to the edge for *any* reason is simply wrong. There were no tanks rolling on the capitol, no politicians arrested, no process undone.

In fairness, these things describe a system that has fallen off the edge, not inched near it.

[Swamp Yankee]

On 2/8/2021 at 5:15 PM, ClearedHot said:

Having served as the TF commander in Africa...I understand exactly what and who they are. 

There are other reasons they were not previously designated..even though many of us in the field asked for it.  I have heard the cover story about getting aid and other help in but it doesn't not reality or the situation on the ground.  Bottomline, these clowns are a proxy for Iran and as Trump elevated his fight against Iran we should have kept the pressure on.  When it comes to Biden I have zero faith after he and his boss send an airplane load of American Pesos to the Iranian government.  This was a big mistake.

I gave you the actual reason for the late designation, which wasn't the impact on aid distribution.  How much it affected our efforts against ISIS is unclear.  With regard to Iran, paying the $1.3b interest on a 1979 $400m FMS refund was an especially wimp move on Obama's part, although the original MoU did stipulate freezing the funds in an interest-bearing account. 

[Swamp Yankee]

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

No, I sure don't. And I've never once claimed that Antifa had us close to collapse. Nor the race riots. 

 

Anyone who claims we are close to the edge for *any* reason is simply wrong. There were no tanks rolling on the capitol, no politicians arrested, no process undone. Congress was back in session in a matter of hours.

 

Despite the fact that our political betters have convinced most of their constituencies that the other half of the country is a threat to their existence, it's never been a better time to be alive, and that applies to all demographics. 

 

The false depiction of a looming apocalypse is exactly the fear mongering tactic politicians are using to generate donations and votes. The side effect of it's making us hate our neighbors. Long term it may be a self fulfilling prophecy, but in the short term we are nowhere close to catastrophe.

 

1 hour ago, Homestar said:

In fairness, these things describe a system that has fallen off the edge, not inched near it.

Agreed. 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

No, I sure don't. And I've never once claimed that Antifa had us close to collapse. Nor the race riots. 

 

Anyone who claims we are close to the edge for *any* reason is simply wrong. There were no tanks rolling on the capitol, no politicians arrested, no process undone. Congress was back in session in a matter of hours.

 

Despite the fact that our political betters have convinced most of their constituencies that the other half of the country is a threat to their existence, it's never been a better time to be alive, and that applies to all demographics. 

 

The false depiction of a looming apocalypse is exactly the fear mongering tactic politicians are using to generate donations and votes. The side effect of it's making us hate our neighbors. Long term it may be a self fulfilling prophecy, but in the short term we are nowhere close to catastrophe.

"There were no tanks rolling on the capitol, no politicians arrested, no process undone. Congress was back in session in a matter of hours."

As homestar noted, these things are indicative of being over the edge, to keep our vernacular consistent.  That in mind, what are other indications of imminent chaos?  What would have actually concerned you?

[Swamp Yankee]

13 hours ago, ClearedHot said:

The honeymoon is over Joe, now you have to answer to your communist base.  This week the far left is holding Joe's feet to the fire on such wonderful issues as:

1.  $15 minimum wage which will crush already struggling small businesses and cost a CBO estimated 1.4 Million jobs.

2.  Government payments to Illegals...WTF!

3.  Bernie openly bashing what your cohorts in Congress have proposed for stimulus eligibility.

 

The income cap reduction is being championed by Joe Manchin, who is considered one of the most conservative democrats in the Senate.  In AOC's NYC, $150k family is barely middle-class.  Bernie has the same perspective, since VT is surprisingly expensive due to all that artisanal cheese and former-execs-back-to-the-landers.   

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2021/02/06/over-50-house-democrats-ask-biden-not-to-lower-income-threshold-for-1400-stimulus-checks/?sh=31b89573350e

Edited February 10, 2021 by Swamp Yankee

[Lord Ratner]

1 hour ago, Swamp Yankee said:

 

Agreed. 

 

"There were no tanks rolling on the capitol, no politicians arrested, no process undone. Congress was back in session in a matter of hours."

As homestar noted, these things are indicative of being over the edge, to keep our vernacular consistent.  That in mind, what are other indications of imminent chaos?  What would have actually concerned you?

Military units dissenting, journalists being silenced, prominent figures disappearing, protestors meeting firing lines, businesses and property being seized based on political affiliation or identity group... Guys, we aren't close.

 

~5,000 idiots stormed the Capitol, and were only successful because the police response to rioting was dialed back as a result of the race riot optics. They (aggregate, not a couple here and there) didn't intend to kill people, because of they did there wouldn't be 5 deaths, there would be hundreds. You can even see in the video how they basically walk around the cops. 

 

Let's have some consistency. Either the race riots over the summer were worse, and much more representative of us going over the edge, or neither riot represented "barely missing." I think the latter.

 

It's amazing to me how many people on both sides I talk to that think we're right on the edge, yet all of you are sitting on your asses doing nothing. If I truly believed that police were systemically killing black people in our society, or I believed that our Democratic processes were being stolen from us, I'd be taking to the street with my guns as well.

 

I think perhaps the intellectual class has gotten so used to talking in riddles that we've all forgotten how to speak literally. We are literally not close to the edge.

 

Yes, Trump incited a riot. And it was a shameful moment in our history, perhaps one of the most shameful. That doesn't mean it represented an immediate threat to the Constitution or our way of life.

[Pooter]

6 hours ago, Lord Ratner said:

Military units dissenting, journalists being silenced, prominent figures disappearing, protestors meeting firing lines, businesses and property being seized based on political affiliation or identity group... Guys, we aren't close.

 

~5,000 idiots stormed the Capitol, and were only successful because the police response to rioting was dialed back as a result of the race riot optics. They (aggregate, not a couple here and there) didn't intend to kill people, because of they did there wouldn't be 5 deaths, there would be hundreds. You can even see in the video how they basically walk around the cops. 

 

Let's have some consistency. Either the race riots over the summer were worse, and much more representative of us going over the edge, or neither riot represented "barely missing." I think the latter.

 

It's amazing to me how many people on both sides I talk to that think we're right on the edge, yet all of you are sitting on your asses doing nothing. If I truly believed that police were systemically killing black people in our society, or I believed that our Democratic processes were being stolen from us, I'd be taking to the street with my guns as well.

 

I think perhaps the intellectual class has gotten so used to talking in riddles that we've all forgotten how to speak literally. We are literally not close to the edge.

 

Yes, Trump incited a riot. And it was a shameful moment in our history, perhaps one of the most shameful. That doesn't mean it represented an immediate threat to the Constitution or our way of life.

There's an enormous false equivalence here. The "race riots" were an organic reaction of the populace to a thing that actually happened.. the brutal killing of George Floyd by police.. caught completely on video. 
 

The capitol riot was incited by the sitting president of the United States spreading blatant falsehoods about a fair election because his own ego couldn't handle the fact that he lost.  And even though the number of people who stormed the capitol is very small in the grand scheme of things, the scariest part of this is that ~40% of republicans believe the same narrative that motivated those rioters.

If you don't understand how the latter is far more dangerous to our country than the former, we don't have a lot left to talk about.  

[ClearedHot]

9 hours ago, Swamp Yankee said:

The income cap reduction is being championed by Joe Manchin, who is considered one of the most conservative democrats in the Senate.  In AOC's NYC, $150k family is barely middle-class.  Bernie has the same perspective, since VT is surprisingly expensive due to all that artisanal cheese and former-execs-back-to-the-landers.   

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2021/02/06/over-50-house-democrats-ask-biden-not-to-lower-income-threshold-for-1400-stimulus-checks/?sh=31b89573350e

Like I said the party is over and the tug of war has begun.  Will he have the stones to stay in the middle given all that unity and stuff or will he end up under the thumb of the squad...

Joe is also pushing back on his key Stone Pipeline EO - Sen. Manchin Urges Biden to Permit Keystone XL Pipeline

[pawnman]

3 hours ago, Pooter said:

There's an enormous false equivalence here. The "race riots" were an organic reaction of the populace to a thing that actually happened.. the brutal killing of George Floyd by police.. caught completely on video. 
 

The capitol riot was incited by the sitting president of the United States spreading blatant falsehoods about a fair election because his own ego couldn't handle the fact that he lost.  And even though the number of people who stormed the capitol is very small in the grand scheme of things, the scariest part of this is that ~40% of republicans believe the same narrative that motivated those rioters.

If you don't understand how the latter is far more dangerous to our country than the former, we don't have a lot left to talk about.  

Both came out of political operatives sowing lies in order to cement their own power. 

[Kiloalpha]

2 hours ago, Pooter said:

There's an enormous false equivalence here. The "race riots" were an organic reaction of the populace to a thing that actually happened.. the brutal killing of George Floyd by police.. caught completely on video. 
 

The capitol riot was incited by the sitting president of the United States spreading blatant falsehoods about a fair election because his own ego couldn't handle the fact that he lost.  And even though the number of people who stormed the capitol is very small in the grand scheme of things, the scariest part of this is that ~40% of republicans believe the same narrative that motivated those rioters.

If you don't understand how the latter is far more dangerous to our country than the former, we don't have a lot left to talk about.  

Let's re-frame this discussion then.

People see the George Floyd video, and that sparks protests about police killing black Americans. Those protests then devolve into riots in some major US cities.

Key Point: Those riots and protests weren't just because of George Floyd, although his death likely elevated the issue. They were about the 'systemic killing of black people by police.' Which is a lie. Period. The Washington Post created a database to try and prove the theory... and they came up empty, along with other journalistic/academic outlets. That reality didn't dissuade prominent media personalities, our current VP, and others from creating bail funds for those doing the rioting, and going along with that lie... because it made them powerful.

------

Fast forward 6-8 months.

Some people see that their state voting laws are being changed without their legislature's consent due to legal action by the Democratic party/and or action from Democratic state officials, and that bothers them. Election night rolls around, and more people see "massive dumps of mail-in votes" that happened throughout the night, and several uncorroborated accounts of "fraud" being perpetuated. When coupled with that previous discontent, they believe the election is likely stolen. (Then) President Trump seizes on that narrative... because that gives him political power.

Tying it together: Both the cases rely on factual things that happened to base their alternate realities. George Floyd did die at the hands of a cop. States did have their voting laws changed to boost mail-in voting. Attached to those truths are an entire web of lies that create the full conspiracies, and thus build the emotional fever required to sustain a movement. Cults work in very similar ways, actually. You could even say the same thing about QAnon... with the factual basis being Jeffrey Epstein.

Moving on though, both sides took those false ideas and engaged in violence to support them. For BLM it was rioting and looting. For the right it was Jan 6th.

We can debate over which was "bigger" or which made the larger "impact," but fundamentally they are the exact same thing. Political violence committed because of a conspiracy. A lie.

Trump didn't invent the fraud conspiracy, he simply weaponized it for his gain. Just as Kamala Harris and other Democrats didn't invent the lies that BLM used. They simply weaponized it for their gain.

Both sides in a deeper way understand this, which is why the debate naturally comes down to which side is more morally righteous. Ex. "You seriously can't compare racial oppression to a crazy stolen election theory." Which is an attempt to add slavery/Jim Crow/racism to their side of the seesaw in a clever slight of hand... by calling you a racist.

[tac airlifter]

3 hours ago, Pooter said:

There's an enormous false equivalence here. The "race riots" were an organic reaction of the populace to a thing that actually happened.. the brutal killing of George Floyd by police.. caught completely on video. 
 

The capitol riot was incited by the sitting president of the United States spreading blatant falsehoods about a fair election because his own ego couldn't handle the fact that he lost.  And even though the number of people who stormed the capitol is very small in the grand scheme of things, the scariest part of this is that ~40% of republicans believe the same narrative that motivated those rioters.

If you don't understand how the latter is far more dangerous to our country than the former, we don't have a lot left to talk about.  

This post exemplifies the real crisis in our country: an inability to talk to each other.  Your first paragraph is filled with assumptions you believe to be facts.  Your second paragraph is also assumptions masquerading as fact.  
 

The foundation of a functioning democratic society is disagreements are civil and resolved by good faith conversations.  That means listening to the other side and asking yourself “could they be right?  Can I understand their viewpoint?  How can I convince them of mine?”
 

You’re right about one thing: we don’t have much left to talk about if “talking” just means I’m brow beat with your opinions.  How do you think the country hold together when convincing conversations cease and power is used to force those you disagree with to obey?

[Lord Ratner]

13 hours ago, Pooter said:

There's an enormous false equivalence here. The "race riots" were an organic reaction of the populace to a thing that actually happened.. the brutal killing of George Floyd by police.. caught completely on video. 
 

The capitol riot was incited by the sitting president of the United States spreading blatant falsehoods about a fair election because his own ego couldn't handle the fact that he lost.  And even though the number of people who stormed the capitol is very small in the grand scheme of things, the scariest part of this is that ~40% of republicans believe the same narrative that motivated those rioters.

If you don't understand how the latter is far more dangerous to our country than the former, we don't have a lot left to talk about.  

If you can't see why my opinion is better than yours, we have nothing to talk about. 

Well... Bye.

 

The others have already covered the errors of your post, but one more I'll add:

 

The race riots were far from organic, and they were not born from the George Floyd murder (murder, not racist murder). They were a continuation of social unrest where protests and riots spring up everytime a black American was killed by the police (or non-black person) in circumstances that were murky enough to exploit. Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, George Floyd, just to name some big ones. Remember Hands Up Don't Shoot? Was that *blatant* fantasy an organic response as well? 

 

What's hilarious in your response is almost perfectly timed support of my allegation.

 

Me: The false depiction of a looming apocalypse is exactly the fear mongering tactic politicians are using to generate donations and votes. The side effect is it's making us hate our neighbors

You: If you don't understand how the latter [i.e. your side's social unrest] is far more dangerous to our country than the former [my side's social unrest], we don't have a lot left to talk about.  

Edited February 11, 2021 by Lord Ratner

[Swamp Yankee]

On 2/10/2021 at 5:02 AM, ClearedHot said:

Like I said the party is over and the tug of war has begun.  Will he have the stones to stay in the middle given all that unity and stuff or will he end up under the thumb of the squad...

Joe is also pushing back on his key Stone Pipeline EO - Sen. Manchin Urges Biden to Permit Keystone XL Pipeline

The benefits outweigh the negatives on the XL extension.   The main benefit being increased North American energy independence.  We are better off getting petroleum from North American land vs the Middle East.  Offshore carries unique environmental risks that are difficult to mitigate (busted well heads and crashed tankers).  

The jobs will help, although the estimates vary widely.  The DoS's estimate was 40k jobs, of which 10% would be during the construction period.  When compared to a typical 180k/month job creation rate in the US, it isn't much but every little bit counts due to COVID impacts.  

 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-benefits-from-the-keystone-xl-pipeline-and-dakota-access-pipeline-pros-cons/

There is a technology and investment piece here also.  Tar sands are significantly more corrosive than other petroleum suspension mediums, thus risking oil leaks.  It is solvable in the near term via brute force (more metal, catchment systems) assuming the private sector is willing to pony up the funds.   

I'd like to see nuclear power regain a viable position and grow.  Of course, there are limits regarding suitable conventional plant locations (large bodies of cooling water), construction materials (steady supply of rare metals due to neutron embrittlement), disposal, and uranium.   That said, the hysteria around safety is largely overblown.  If the Navy can run reactors on warships, we should be able to figure it out for commercial energy needs.  Due to particulate pollution, hydrocarbons affect far more people on a per-kW basis than nuclear plants.  Another 50 plants could supply 15-20% of our current electricity demand.

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Swamp Yankee

[ecugringo]

I use to follow this site when I was going into UPT and trying to get into OTS.  I still surf around and follow some conversations from time to time.  There are usually some interesting perspectives here.  I separated from the AF and work in Oil and Gas now and have had a great career for the past 10 years.  I'll add my .02 on energy from my perspective.

Keystone XL.  There already is a Keystone pipeline.  The XL would allow more crude to flow from Canada.  Canadian Crude is heavy sulfur or sour crude.  Sweet crude is more often found in the Middle East and is just below the surface.  Most of the northern refineries and midwest burn Canadian crude.  You need special equipment to turn products out of it.  Enbridge Pipeline has several lines running across the border and even under Lake Michigan (Line 5).  The benefit of Canadian is that it's dirt cheap.  However, it is harder on equipment.  The coastal refineries dont allow it to be processed.  Their crude comes from the middle east.  The US is the largest oil producer in the world.  But US oil is really only profitable at around $40/barrel in most locations.  Middle East crude is something under $10/barrel.

I dont know how many jobs are lost if XL is cancelled.  It's a stupid amount of steel though.  It's push against energy in general that has me worried.  There was a brain drain in the industry in the late 80's.  But with the Bakken and Eagle Ford basins there was a massive demand for bodies.  You can have a GED and make $100k.  I have 2 reports that are Navy Vets with only a GED making over $200k.  I dont think many people on the coast realize how many people make a great living in this industry and no they can't just go get windmill jobs.  We have Aerospace Engineers working with us that make more on pipeline engineering than they ever did at Lockheed.  This past year has been bad on the industry.  I dont think Biden has a clue not just cancelling XL but putting a target on this industry how bad it could be.

Also interesting note about Nuclear Plants.  The largest plant is west of Phoenix, Palo Verde.  They use public city waste water for cooling.  Also since CA closed their plants, Palo Verde sells power into the CA grid.

[Swamp Yankee]

30 minutes ago, ecugringo said:

I use to follow this site when I was going into UPT and trying to get into OTS.  I still surf around and follow some conversations from time to time.  There are usually some interesting perspectives here.  I separated from the AF and work in Oil and Gas now and have had a great career for the past 10 years.  I'll add my .02 on energy from my perspective.

Keystone XL.  There already is a Keystone pipeline.  The XL would allow more crude to flow from Canada.  Canadian Crude is heavy sulfur or sour crude.  Sweet crude is more often found in the Middle East and is just below the surface.  Most of the northern refineries and midwest burn Canadian crude.  You need special equipment to turn products out of it.  Enbridge Pipeline has several lines running across the border and even under Lake Michigan (Line 5).  The benefit of Canadian is that it's dirt cheap.  However, it is harder on equipment.  The coastal refineries dont allow it to be processed.  Their crude comes from the middle east.  The US is the largest oil producer in the world.  But US oil is really only profitable at around $40/barrel in most locations.  Middle East crude is something under $10/barrel.

I dont know how many jobs are lost if XL is cancelled.  It's a stupid amount of steel though.  It's push against energy in general that has me worried.  There was a brain drain in the industry in the late 80's.  But with the Bakken and Eagle Ford basins there was a massive demand for bodies.  You can have a GED and make $100k.  I have 2 reports that are Navy Vets with only a GED making over $200k.  I dont think many people on the coast realize how many people make a great living in this industry and no they can't just go get windmill jobs.  We have Aerospace Engineers working with us that make more on pipeline engineering than they ever did at Lockheed.  This past year has been bad on the industry.  I dont think Biden has a clue not just cancelling XL but putting a target on this industry how bad it could be.

Also interesting note about Nuclear Plants.  The largest plant is west of Phoenix, Palo Verde.  They use public city waste water for cooling.  Also since CA closed their plants, Palo Verde sells power into the CA grid.

Interesting.  The technical details tend to get in the way of "simple" solutions. 

That reminds me - a few years ago one of my teams was testing anti-vibration seating systems with trucking companies in central Canada and the northern tier of the US.  I remember pulling into tiny oil towns and seeing 20 year olds driving brand new $70k pickups, Range Rovers and G-Wagons.  They couldn't all be meth dealers.  

Waste water for cooling makes sense. 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Swamp Yankee

[ecugringo]

54 minutes ago, Swamp Yankee said:

Interesting.  The technical details tend to get in the way of "simple" solutions. 

That reminds me - a few years ago one of my teams was testing anti-vibration seating systems with trucking companies in central Canada and the northern tier of the US.  I remember pulling into tiny oil towns and seeing 20 year olds driving brand new $70k pickups, Range Rovers and G-Wagons.  They couldn't all be meth dealers.  

Waste water for cooling makes sense. 

 

Yeah it's far more complicated than just put the pipeline in and gas will be .69 cents/gallon....You actually want a healthy fuel price for the downstream side of the industry.  The crack spread is the profit refineries make on the price of oil they purchase it and what they can sell the finished products at.  Upstream needs the price of oil traded at a healthy price as well.  Exxon, Shell, Chevron etc....have no interest at oil traded at under $50/bbl.  Once the price dips, they will throttle back.  If the US stops buying Canadian crude, they will sell it to China and build a pipeline to the west.

Interesting note on XL.  Warren Buffet campaigned against the XL pipeline.  Warren Buffet owns BNSF Rail.  As of now the pipeline infrastructure is not inlace to move large amounts of Bakken Crude which is sweet crude other than rail.  BNSF owns the rights to move all Bakken crude by rail.  When Obama canned XL BNSF bought something like 10k rail cars for crude.  Rail is by far more dangerous to move oil.  Bakken Crude is mostly moved by train to the west and barged down to CA refineries to process or it moves east to the Coastal refineries.

Yes, 70k F150's are very common.  Everyone I know has a lot of toys.  Cash maybe not so much but $10k hunting trips aren't out of the question.

Edited February 11, 2021 by ecugringo

[uhhello]

5 hours ago, ecugringo said:

 

Also interesting note about Nuclear Plants.  The largest plant is west of Phoenix, Palo Verde.  They use public city waste water for cooling.  Also since CA closed their plants, Palo Verde sells power into the CA grid.

Learn something new every day. 

[Swamp Yankee]

On 2/10/2021 at 9:59 AM, Lord Ratner said:

If you can't see why my opinion is better than yours, we have nothing to talk about. 

Well... Bye.

 

The others have already covered the errors of your post, but one more I'll add:

 

The race riots were far from organic, and they were not born from the George Floyd murder (murder, not racist murder). They were a continuation of social unrest where protests and riots spring up everytime a black American was killed by the police (or non-black person) in circumstances that were murky enough to exploit. Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Freddie Gray, George Floyd, just to name some big ones. Remember Hands Up Don't Shoot? Was that *blatant* fantasy an organic response as well? 

 

What's hilarious in your response is almost perfectly timed support of my allegation.

 

Me: The false depiction of a looming apocalypse is exactly the fear mongering tactic politicians are using to generate donations and votes. The side effect is it's making us hate our neighbors

You: If you don't understand how the latter [i.e. your side's social unrest] is far more dangerous to our country than the former [my side's social unrest], we don't have a lot left to talk about.  

Part of the issue is the "uniqueness" of the Jan 6th riot/insurrection/whatever you want to call it.  The country has experienced and survived riots due to racial unrest: Tulsa 1921, Detroit 1943, Watts 1965, Boston 1974, LA 1992, BLM this summer and many, many more.  Now, let me be clear, these events were horrible and cannot be excused. For example, in the 1921 Tulsa massacre up to 200 (mostly black people) were killed by (mostly) white mobs.  The underlying factors and the people involved in all of these riots do not speak well of America values.  However, sadly, we are familiar with such events. 

There isn't a precedent for an invasion of a federal building and attempt to stop an important federal government process.  Until Jan 6th, an enemy flag has never been forcibly displayed in the Capitol.  There were armed invaders who, by their own admission, were seeking to harm those charged with conducting said processes.   Luckily it manifested as flash fire that burned out. That said, I would argue that the hot embers still exist and could flare up again.   So, yes, I do think we were close to an unprecedented precipice.  How close?  Who knows, we've never been through this before.  We've never had a national leader who has been able to whip up fervor to this extent based on lies.

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Swamp Yankee

[Homestar]

40 minutes ago, Swamp Yankee said:

Part of the issue is the "uniqueness" of the Jan 6th riot/insurrection/whatever you want to call it.  The country has experienced and survived riots due to racial unrest: Tulsa 1921, Detroit 1943, Watts 1965, Boston 1974, LA 1992, BLM this summer and many, many more.  Now, let me be clear, these events were horrible and cannot be excused. For example, in the 1921 Tulsa massacre up to 200 (mostly black people) were killed by (mostly) white mobs.  The underlying factors and the people involved in all of these riots do not speak well of America values.  However, sadly, we are familiar with such events. 

There isn't a precedent for an invasion of a federal building and attempt to stop an important federal government process.  Until Jan 6th, an enemy flag has never been forcibly displayed in the Capitol.  There were armed invaders who, by their own admission, were seeking to harm those charged with conducting said processes.   Luckily it manifested as flash fire that burned out. That said, I would argue that the hot embers still exist and could flare up again.   So, yes, I do think we were close to an unprecedented precipice.  How close?  Who knows, we've never been through this before.  We've never had a national leader who has been able to whip up fervor to this extent based on lies.

 

After watching some of the videos presented to the Senate this week I’m convinced that Pence was in much more danger than I previously thought. Pelosi too. 
 

In the end the government was able to resume work fairly quickly which is a testament to the strength of our institutions. 
 

I thought the first impeachment was a partisan waste of time. The second is perfectly justified but the GOP is so full of cowards that nothing will come of it.