The Next President is...

[Sua Sponte]

36 minutes ago, VMFA187 said:

Millennials also have vastly different values than the baby boomers who wanted to start a family early and own property. Many millennials want freedom and to work as little as required in order to satisfy their expenses.

You ever stop and think that a lot of Millennials can't afford to start a family early and own property? Probably not. Curious what qualifies as a non-useless degree?

[Sua Sponte]

5 minutes ago, Prozac said:

I’ll go one better and say their parents likely played a large role in the entitlement attitude. I agree with you that there are some major disconnects between the younger and older generations when it comes to ambition, work ethic, and intestinal fortitude. The stereotypes are definitely grounded in reality. At the same time, there are some very real obstacles that have been placed in their way and most of us would rather bicker over pronouns, windmills, and purple teletubbies than address issues that will have huge and lasting effects on the future of this country. I don’t have all the solutions but here’s one to start with: Want your college loans forgiven? Done, but the catch is two years of national service. Sort of a neo-GI Bill to jumpstart the new generation. 

By millennial parents, you mean boomers? How do I know? I'm 40, a millennial, and my parents are boomers. College loans are already forgiven if you attain 100% VA disability, which would require national service via the military.

[VMFA187]

6 minutes ago, Prozac said:

I’ll go one better and say their parents likely played a large role in the entitlement attitude. I agree with you that there are some major disconnects between the younger and older generations when it comes to ambition, work ethic, and intestinal fortitude. The stereotypes are definitely grounded in reality. At the same time, there are some very real obstacles that have been placed in their way and most of us would rather bicker over pronouns, windmills, and purple teletubbies than address issues that will have huge and lasting effects on the future of this country. I don’t have all the solutions but here’s one to start with: Want your college loans forgiven? Done, but the catch is two years of national service. Sort of a neo-GI Bill to jumpstart the new generation. 

I don't know that it was the boomers that played a large role in millennials' attitudes, but rather millennials doing that to their children. If you have a chance pick up The Coddling of the American Mind. Phenomenal read that explains so many of our current societies' ills. Or just look listen to Rogan's interview with Greg Lukianoff.

[VMFA187]

3 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

You ever stop and think that a lot of Millennials can't afford to start a family early and own property? Probably not. Curious what qualifies as a non-useless degree?

You're right, maybe doing it early isn't the right answer now. Maybe get established, make your life stable and then start a family. People live longer now...?

Non-useless - Math, actual sciences (not the social science degree I got because I knew I wanted to fly and only had to run fast, do lots of pullups, and have a degree for the Marine Corps), engineering... 

[Sua Sponte]

Just now, VMFA187 said:

You're right, maybe doing it early isn't the right answer now. Maybe get established, make your life stable and then start a family. People live longer now...?

Non-useless - Math, actual sciences (not the social science degree I got because I knew I wanted to fly and only had to run fast, do lots of pullups, and have a degree for the Marine Corps), engineering... 

I’m a PM for a bunch of engineers. Why am I the PM? Because I don’t have weaponized autism and I have a social science undergrad and STEM grad degree. Do you want to live in a world with all STEM majors? I sure as shit don’t. I also don’t want to live in a world full of philosophy majors. The worst pilots I ever flew with were STEM majors. Why? They’re too analytical and a lot of the time that doesn’t translate over to flying skill. Best pilots I flew with? Business/History majors.

[VMFA187]

1 minute ago, Sua Sponte said:

I’m a PM for a bunch of engineers. Why am I the PM? Because I don’t have weaponized autism and I have a social science undergrad and STEM grad degree. Do you want to live in a world with all STEM majors? I sure as shit don’t. I also don’t want to live in a world full of philosophy majors. The worst pilots I ever flew with were STEM majors. Why? They’re too analytical and a lot of the time that doesn’t translate over to flying skill. Best pilots I flew with? Business/History majors.

Concur. I'd take the high school quarterback with a 3.0 in international relations over the above for a fighter pilot.

If you want a degree that pays for the cost of itself and then makes money, maybe get a degree that has some value in the commercial sector. 

We are a tiny minority of people who buck the trend of degrees and wages. 

[FLEA]

Just now, VMFA187 said:

Concur. I'd take the high school quarterback with a 3.0 in international relations over the above for a fighter pilot.

If you want a degree that pays for the cost of itself and then makes money, maybe get a degree that has some value in the commercial sector. 

We are a tiny minority of people who buck the trend of degrees and wages. 

Also lots of people don't realize things like gender studies degrees are pulling six figures now as fortune 500s try to sweep up every advocate they can for their D&I initiatives to prevent another C-suiter from being front page times for sexual impropriety. 

Or that philosophy majors with tech knowledge are going on to be AI ethicist that are documenting the moral boundaries of next generation computing. 

Its difficult to classify a persons aptitude or value based solely on a degree. As it is, degrees aren't incredibly vocational and are more indicative of a person's problem solving technique and critical thinking capability than actual industry experience. 

[Prozac]

38 minutes ago, Sua Sponte said:

Best pilots I flew with? Business/History majors.

WTF dude, I wasn’t either of those.  😎

Edited June 24, 2022 by Prozac

[Lord Ratner]

11 hours ago, pawnman said:

Do you believe the tech industry represents the majority of millenials?  Millenials who, keep in mind, are in their 40s, likely with kids?

The tech industry isn't the majority of the economy.

In 1980, the US median income was $21,020.  Median home price was $47,200.  Just over two year's salary would buy a home.  Average cost of a 4-year degree for a student living on campus was about $9,500.

In 2020, the US median income was $67,521.  Median home price was $375,000.  So now we're up to 7 years of work.  Average cost of a 4-year degree at an in-state university is up to $101K for a student that lives on campus.  Off-campus, closer to $40K.  And many colleges are more expensive.

You can wave around the high-earning tech jobs, but those are the vast minority of the employment landscape.  The same jobs do not have the same earning power they used to.  Hell, when I was making minimum wage back in the 90's, I could buy a car, go to the movies, buy clothes, etc.  My daughter needed help buying a car, can barely afford to keep gas in it, and constantly has to make choices between going to the theater or getting fast food.

And yet, we have senior leaders who can't recognize work-life balance, that working from home can be productive, or hell, even set up their own printers and monitors.

OK...how many CEOs, VPs, or chairman positions are held by anyone under the age of 60?  Damned few.

I think we're in agreement about some of the causes of college tuition spiraling, but the fact remains that this entire generation was told, by boomers, all through their primary and high school education that they needed to go to college, all while the policies set by the same boomers placed college financially out of reach for them.  Regardless of the reason, that is still a major issue facing younger generations.

The millenials are the first generation to fare worse than their parents in terms of income growth, wealth accumulation, and quality of life.

Shack. Sounds exactly like my rant when these boomer captains bitch about their kids not meeting their expectations.

 

Why aren't you doing well in the world we control?

 

Now we get the privilege of paying for their decades of financial malfeasance while simultaneously funding the social security program they bankrupted, which we will never benefit from.

 

And they have the audacity of invoking capitalism when their kids flirt with socialism, when in reality their kids are only leaning towards socialist solutions because they watched their parents' generation drag capitalism into an alley and rape it for the last 30 years.

 

And just wait, their over-leveraged, over invested 401k accounts are going to implode and they'll be back to the government trough for another bailout, all while lecturing us on responsibility and hard work 😂🤣

Edited June 24, 2022 by Lord Ratner

[Lord Ratner]

8 hours ago, brabus said:

Every millennial has the opportunity to make enough money to live a good life

This is simply not true in a historical context. As pointed out, the median income is no longer capable of buying the same things. And the distribution of wealth over the generations at specific ages has shifted dramatically lower. The college scam has started millions off with crippling debt. 

 

Millennials did not create this world, their parents did.

[brabus]

13 minutes ago, Lord Ratner said:

This is simply not true in a historical context. As pointed out, the median income is no longer capable of buying the same things. And the distribution of wealth over the generations at specific ages has shifted dramatically lower. The college scam has started millions off with crippling debt. 

 

Millennials did not create this world, their parents did.

It’s completely true. College today is mostly bullshit and absolutely financially cripples people (in terms of cost and earning potential relative to loans), so we agree on that. But guess what, nobody forces these kids to go and get that expensive, but useless degree. Again, plenty of millennials crushing life right now, but they’re not the ones who refuse to take ownership of their life and make dumb decisions like go get an art history degree and expect to buy a house 2 years after the fact. 

[Sua Sponte]

Whenever boomers bitch about forgiving any student loans, I remind them I guess I shouldn’t pay 100% into SSA when I won’t be able to receive 100% SSA due to them. Oh yeah, 99% of jobs don’t have pensions anymore either. But hey, at least boomers will be able to buy that third vacation home.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Sua Sponte

[Sua Sponte]

13 minutes ago, brabus said:

It’s completely true. College today is mostly bullshit and absolutely financially cripples people (in terms of cost and earning potential relative to loans), so we agree on that. But guess what, nobody forces these kids to go and get that expensive, but useless degree. Again, plenty of millennials crushing life right now, but they’re not the ones who refuse to take ownership of their life and make dumb decisions like go get an art history degree and expect to buy a house 2 years after the fact. 

Should service academies only have STEM degrees? I mean, as a tax payer why should I fund some tard at USAFA getting a B.S. in Philosophy?

A lot of college is bullshit. But who told Millennials to go to college or they won’t be anything in life and not obtain a good paying job? Boomers. Oh yeah, let’s talk about the Ivy’s. There’s a reason why those rich and famous parents weren’t cheating their kid into the Comp Sci program at the U of Nebraska. Because those STEM grads have a vastly less change to make it into the Bay Area big money MAANG world compared to Ivy grads. Stop acting like a STEM degree is a ticket to a big payout career. We’re now shifting to where a bachelors is the equivalent of a high school diploma and a graduate degree is now the equivalent of a bachelors.

Plenty of Millennials are crushing life right now. Part of it is what you’d said, hard work. Another part of it is being born into privilege of rich boomer parents and getting opportunities that those poorer would’ve never had.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Sua Sponte

[brabus]

@Sua Sponte I get it, you’re talking to a poli sci major from a state school. But here’s the thing, I think my wife and I (technically millennials) are crushing life pretty well for us and our kids, and we got to where we are without anything handed to us. But I didn’t own what I do now when I was 25, or 30, etc. We steadily built our life today through effort and adapting around plenty of unexpected life hurdles. We’re not unique, lots of millennials have done this, many better than I did (the hookers and blow were totally worth it!) But like most things these days, negative news and whiny bitches get most of the “air time.” 

Additionally, I have millennial friends who never went to college - they’re crushing life much better than the art history guy. Lastly, I don’t define making millions on wall street from your Ivy League shoe-in job as the min bar to define “crushing life.” But if that’s your definition, well then I feel bad for your bleak outlook on life. 

[Sua Sponte]

6 minutes ago, brabus said:

@Sua Sponte I get it, you’re talking to a poli sci major from a state school. But here’s the thing, I think my wife and I (technically millennials) are crushing life pretty well for us and our kids, and we got to where we are without anything handed to us. But I didn’t own what I do now when I was 25, or 30, etc. We steadily built our life today through effort and adapting around plenty of unexpected life hurdles. We’re not unique, lots of millennials have done this, many better than I did (the hookers and blow were totally worth it!) But like most things these days, negative news and whiny bitches get most of the “air time.” 

Additionally, I have millennial friends who never went to college - they’re crushing life much better than the art history guy. Lastly, I don’t define making millions on wall street from your Ivy League shoe-in job as the min bar to define “crushing life.” But if that’s your definition, well then I feel bad for your bleak outlook on life. 

The irony is I’m a Poli Sci major from a state school (undergrad). The critical thinking skills I used obtaining that education has helped me out immensely, especially the two times I’ve been in grad school.

I fucked up in the Air Force and lost my career, but I didn’t let that define my life. I worked really hard the last five years to get where I’m at today. I think that’s what drives me nuts about a lot of boomers who just sorta road the coattails of their parents, the Greatest Generation, and then lecture Millennials on how “lazy” and “entitled” we apparently are.

[Swizzle]

1 hour ago, Prozac said:

WTF dude, I wasn’t either of those.  😎

You mean pilot and/or liberal arts major? 

Hey...Do/did you steal box-nasties by chance!? Or, might you have a stop watch readily available?🧭

(*sarcasm)

[disgruntledemployee]

 

1 hour ago, Sua Sponte said:

Whenever boomers bitch about forgiving any student loans, I remind them I guess I shouldn’t pay 100% into SSA when I won’t be able to receive 100% SSA due to them. Oh yeah, 99% of jobs don’t have pensions anymore either. But hey, at least boomers will be able to buy that third vacation home.

I bitch because I had to repay mine (I ain't a boomer).  I knew what I wanted (fly, ergo the degree) and figured it out.  And today, in my state, HS grads that attend in state and can hold a B can mostly have tuition covered. 

1 hour ago, Lord Ratner said:

This is simply not true in a historical context. As pointed out, the median income is no longer capable of buying the same things. And the distribution of wealth over the generations at specific ages has shifted dramatically lower. The college scam has started millions off with crippling debt. 

 

Millennials did not create this world, their parents did.

Ok, so what are they going to do about it?  Sit there with tears rolling onto their cell phone screens while tic tocking away, or do something about it.  I posit, too many will do nothing.  And that's fine with me, I'll take it.  Know and understand the game, then beat it.  Been that way forever... I think it was called, "King of the Mountain."

[FLEA]

3 hours ago, brabus said:

@Sua Sponte I get it, you’re talking to a poli sci major from a state school. But here’s the thing, I think my wife and I (technically millennials) are crushing life pretty well for us and our kids, and we got to where we are without anything handed to us. But I didn’t own what I do now when I was 25, or 30, etc. We steadily built our life today through effort and adapting around plenty of unexpected life hurdles. We’re not unique, lots of millennials have done this, many better than I did (the hookers and blow were totally worth it!) But like most things these days, negative news and whiny bitches get most of the “air time.” 

Additionally, I have millennial friends who never went to college - they’re crushing life much better than the art history guy. Lastly, I don’t define making millions on wall street from your Ivy League shoe-in job as the min bar to define “crushing life.” But if that’s your definition, well then I feel bad for your bleak outlook on life. 

That's a lot for us man, and many of us escaped an unfortunate fate by going to the military. The fact is though, for 99% of millinneals the traditional career plan didn't work. You simply can't build a career with jobs that don't exist and when the only thing the labor market can offer is entry level positions for a decade that causes a problem. We can't even say they could have just joined the military because between 2008 and 2012 or so we were kicking people out left and right for shit as small as failing a PT test. I remember half the class that graduated the year after me was told they wouldn't have enough AD billets and they needed to find guard/reserve jobs or lose their commission. 

Many successfully went on to find other paths but not everyone can be a small business owner either. A town only needs so many McDonalds franchises, so many coffee shops, so many laundry mats, whatever.... Not to mention having nothing for a small business investment and a complete inability to get a small business loan due to the lack of collateral. We can't expect everyone to be the next shark tank discovery with some awesome phone app that can bring billions. 

Don't look at these people as quitters, but try and have some empathy that they graduated college with the same ambition and excitement you did only to be let down their 5th year at Chipotle because the associate manager position still wasn't open and that was literally the best they could do as far as job market goes. 

I don't find our peers are entitled. I don't think they believe the world owes them anything. Rather, it appears more me the other way around. They don't believe they owe the world anything. Their time, their efforts, their labor, their skills, their son's birthday, their holiday weekend, whatever..... And actually, they are right. We don't owe the world crap, because life between society and workers is very much a transactional relationship. 

Some of us don't care and we will go forth and put forward our best efforts anyway. It has paid off to some extent. Others tried this only to fall flat for decades. We can all day success is about continuing to try but there is a very unfortunate reality that you only have about 40 working years. What happens if you fail all 40? I would use to think that was impossible but we have tons of people now that have fallen flat for 10-15..... They will really only start their careers at 35. You hit peak earning potential at 45 (meaning your career trajectory is more or less set and vertical movement isn't impossible but much harder), and only having 25 years to build a retirement. What's that going to look like? Is retirement event tenable? 

Regarding student loans, I'm similarly unhappy I paid all of mine off. I also never got PLSF because I never knew I needed to be on an income based repayment plan. I did standard repayment so I'd finish them quicker. I agree there is a salt to paying them off only to have other people get the equivalent of a $50K gift or whatever. 

I would be more forgiving with targeted forgiveness that looked at say 5 years of earnings and paid less the longer you were out of school. 

By the way, if anyone reading this does have student loans, you should know there is an executive order in effect until October that allows you to get back credit toward PSLF for all payments you've made as long as you convert to the correct loan type by the end of this Fiscal Year. 

[ecugringo]

LOL I have a Poli Sci degree from a state school.  From my perspective, I dont think a degree matters that much.  I work in Oil and Gas and I see a pretty wide range of backgrounds that are pretty successful.  I will say maybe from being an Officer and my degree gives me an advantage in critical thinking and writing skills.  I work in sales and business development and I see a lot of people with maybe a MBA from a state school and its never been that impressive.  I will also say getting an engineering degree might start you off at a decent level but it stagnates pretty fast.  I think going into debt for an advanced degree really only pays off if it is from a high end business school that can get you connected.  Getting a MBA from whatever State U IDK.  

In my role you can make pretty good $$$.  We have a lot of former enlisted people in our company as either a service tech or sales.  All make 6 figures.  One of our sales guy pulls over $200k with a GED but he was in the Navy so we knew he was trainable.  We have had guys with a STEM degree from Texas A&M and honestly i couldn't stand them.  

There is some truth to the millennial stereotype but I also think the media really pushes it as a talking point.  But I also think there is some truth to the corporate bitching.  Companies are making record profits but are they giving out many raises?  You always read about a CEO making millions only to fail miserably only to get picked up at another company.  Meanwhile the boots on the ground are making it all happen with what they have.  So yeah I sympathize with that bitching a bit.  I also have seen a # of CEO's lifestyle and Im not interested in that.

Student Loans:  What I think is really ed up is hte Univ of PHX and other for profit schools that really went after the lower income and undereducated.  They promised a bright future with a BS degree.  Univ of PHX business plan was to grow at a rate of an Ohio State Univ every year.  This is where the Govt should step in and investigate.  I am in favor of those schools being banished and loans forgiven.  I think these for profit schools make up the majority of delinquent loans?

There are plenty of options to be successful.  I think today there are far more creative ways and there probably is more wealth to be generated that in the past.  Look at United Airlines.  They are starting their own from hte street to RJ school.  Skip college, be an RJ at 18 or 19.  By 40 you're making bank in the right seat.  Just a quick example off the top of my head.

What I disagree with the boomers is the idea of being a slave to a company.  Again in my experience the only way i see people getting promted or raises is jumping to different companies.  Or the idea of being a good soldier and not taking sick days and being hyper dedicated.  When you watch your peers of a company be there for 20+ years and being kicked to the curb at the first hint of decline, all of a sudden you're only out for yourself.  Pensions are no longer a thing, benefits aren't what the use to be.  The table has flipped and the employee can make more demands.  I think hte corporate structure is flipping as it should.

Finally: tangent into global warming.  I was curious why the left didn't push harder to keep remote workers as much as possible.  Less cars not eh road, less congestion, etc....less need for office space=more green space.  Should help global warming?????

[brabus]

6 hours ago, FLEA said:

The fact is though, for 99% of millinneals the traditional career plan didn't work.

By traditional do you mean “work at X for 40 years, pension, etc?” If so, then to agree with your further down point, that’s probably not a bad thing. Again, adapt to the changing work environment, or be a whiny bitch on social media - choose. Lots of millennials own their own business, lots are making O-5 level livings without a college degree, etc. It’s DIFFERENT than decades ago, but is not the doom and gloom “we got so screwed whaaaa” that is pushed. That is simply an excuse. Find a way over or around the hurdle, or give up. I don’t have empathy for most who take the whiny route because I see so many succeeding. I of course have empathy for those who truly are experiencing some significant hurdles that they’re trying to get over, but can’t - but it’s bullshit to say those people make up “a large percentage, majority, etc.”

Overall, I think there are far more millennials succeeding and living life than there are being lazy, entitled shits. But to those lazy ones, I have zero empathy - find a way to win (including pivoting from the outcome of your poor decision to get an expensive and useless degree) or cry yourself to sleep on tik tok like a child, you deserve which ever outcome you make.

 

[Prozac]

15 hours ago, Swizzle said:

You mean pilot and/or liberal arts major? 

Hey...Do/did you steal box-nasties by chance!? Or, might you have a stop watch readily available?🧭

(*sarcasm)

Ah, no. I answer to a lot of things; asshole, dick, f-ing asshole, f-ing dick (my wife will confirm). But I will not be labeled a nav! 😜 I used to fly Sua to work so he could lie on his stomach and pass gas. I was under the impression I was his bestest pilot, but I think he also told BQZip’s mom that he loved her, so I guess you just can’t trust that guy’s compliments! 

[ViperMan]

14 hours ago, FLEA said:

That's a lot for us man, and many of us escaped an unfortunate fate by going to the military. The fact is though, for 99% of millinneals the traditional career plan didn't work. You simply can't build a career with jobs that don't exist and when the only thing the labor market can offer is entry level positions for a decade that causes a problem. We can't even say they could have just joined the military because between 2008 and 2012 or so we were kicking people out left and right for shit as small as failing a PT test. I remember half the class that graduated the year after me was told they wouldn't have enough AD billets and they needed to find guard/reserve jobs or lose their commission. 

Many successfully went on to find other paths but not everyone can be a small business owner either. A town only needs so many McDonalds franchises, so many coffee shops, so many laundry mats, whatever.... Not to mention having nothing for a small business investment and a complete inability to get a small business loan due to the lack of collateral. We can't expect everyone to be the next shark tank discovery with some awesome phone app that can bring billions. 

Don't look at these people as quitters, but try and have some empathy that they graduated college with the same ambition and excitement you did only to be let down their 5th year at Chipotle because the associate manager position still wasn't open and that was literally the best they could do as far as job market goes. 

I don't find our peers are entitled. I don't think they believe the world owes them anything. Rather, it appears more me the other way around. They don't believe they owe the world anything. Their time, their efforts, their labor, their skills, their son's birthday, their holiday weekend, whatever..... And actually, they are right. We don't owe the world crap, because life between society and workers is very much a transactional relationship. 

Some of us don't care and we will go forth and put forward our best efforts anyway. It has paid off to some extent. Others tried this only to fall flat for decades. We can all day success is about continuing to try but there is a very unfortunate reality that you only have about 40 working years. What happens if you fail all 40? I would use to think that was impossible but we have tons of people now that have fallen flat for 10-15..... They will really only start their careers at 35. You hit peak earning potential at 45 (meaning your career trajectory is more or less set and vertical movement isn't impossible but much harder), and only having 25 years to build a retirement. What's that going to look like? Is retirement event tenable? 

Regarding student loans, I'm similarly unhappy I paid all of mine off. I also never got PLSF because I never knew I needed to be on an income based repayment plan. I did standard repayment so I'd finish them quicker. I agree there is a salt to paying them off only to have other people get the equivalent of a $50K gift or whatever. 

I would be more forgiving with targeted forgiveness that looked at say 5 years of earnings and paid less the longer you were out of school. 

By the way, if anyone reading this does have student loans, you should know there is an executive order in effect until October that allows you to get back credit toward PSLF for all payments you've made as long as you convert to the correct loan type by the end of this Fiscal Year. 

I hear the "woe is me/us" coming through, but honestly, what are you advocating for in your post? Should we just pay for everyone's school? It's simple logic to see how that would fail, right? I mean we already have an entire generation of people who took out loans, got degrees (went to college), and are now in the workforce (or not) complaining about how they are getting crushed by student loan debt. If the return on investment was positive, there would be no issue paying all those loans back. Trouble is, they ARE having trouble. Doesn't that highlight the folly of that entire idea to you? How is over-spending on college going to fix this problem in the end??? Seriously. I want to know what the answer is. If the US government got back more than what they put in, then I'd be all for it because in the end it'd mean less taxes. Is it not implicit that we (the people) are not getting our $$$ worth???

9 hours ago, ecugringo said:

Student Loans:  What I think is really ed up is hte Univ of PHX and other for profit schools that really went after the lower income and undereducated.  They promised a bright future with a BS degree.  Univ of PHX business plan was to grow at a rate of an Ohio State Univ every year.  This is where the Govt should step in and investigate.  I am in favor of those schools being banished and loans forgiven.  I think these for profit schools make up the majority of delinquent loans?

This is all valid, and I'd be more supportive of "forgiving" (transferring) these types of loans. Though, if we're going to make a broad sweeping accusation of fraud that was committed by the Univ of PHX et al, then I want the attorney general/DOJ involved. I want people arrested, tried, convicted, their assets seized, and finally sentenced to prison for defrauding individuals and the US government. But it seems to me that without this follow through by the DOJ, it really amounts to nothing more than a talking point for advocates of free college.

[brickhistory]

Always somebody's elses' fault.

Convenient.

Try harder or smarter.

Not feeling one bit of guilt.

[pawnman]

23 minutes ago, brickhistory said:

Always somebody's elses' fault.

Convenient.

Try harder or smarter.

Not feeling one bit of guilt.

"I got mine, fuck you all if I made it more difficult for you".

[ecugringo]

1 hour ago, ViperMan said:

I hear the "woe is me/us" coming through, but honestly, what are you advocating for in your post? Should we just pay for everyone's school? It's simple logic to see how that would fail, right? I mean we already have an entire generation of people who took out loans, got degrees (went to college), and are now in the workforce (or not) complaining about how they are getting crushed by student loan debt. If the return on investment was positive, there would be no issue paying all those loans back. Trouble is, they ARE having trouble. Doesn't that highlight the folly of that entire idea to you? How is over-spending on college going to fix this problem in the end??? Seriously. I want to know what the answer is. If the US government got back more than what they put in, then I'd be all for it because in the end it'd mean less taxes. Is it not implicit that we (the people) are not getting our $$$ worth???

This is all valid, and I'd be more supportive of "forgiving" (transferring) these types of loans. Though, if we're going to make a broad sweeping accusation of fraud that was committed by the Univ of PHX et al, then I want the attorney general/DOJ involved. I want people arrested, tried, convicted, their assets seized, and finally sentenced to prison for defrauding individuals and the US government. But it seems to me that without this follow through by the DOJ, it really amounts to nothing more than a talking point for advocates of free college.

Yeah I believe some of these institutions have been found of Fraud?  But agree, that is what I was referring to.