The Next President is...

[herkbum]

6 minutes ago, Vertigo said:

MASH

 

Best show to ever air on tv.

Something I finally agree with you on

[di1630]

  I think lots of Americans see Europe and some of their nations handling some issues so well compared to us, that there has to be a middle ground...particularly with respect to social safety nets and healthcare.

You see what media wants you to see regarding Europe to help the dem narrative.

My leftist friends would sh-t themselves when the realities set in of $7 a gallon gas, 50% income tax and raising a family of 4 in a 900 sq ft apartment was the standard.

Oh and everyone has an awesome free education and a degree in art or history. Helps them when they wash dishes.

I had some dem-socialist loving relatives visit not too long ago and they got to meet with my “native” European friends and hear the realities of how crappy things are for working class and how they want to move to America.

Really eye opening for them at the time but now they off vacation and are back in their 4,000 sq ft home paying low taxes and driving their SUV so socialism looks fun again because why shouldn’t everyone have nice stuff for free?

[HossHarris]

(Not this shit again meme)

the predictions and prognostications are published to influence people that can’t think critically for themselves. And it’s gonna go full retard before too long. 

Thats why I only read beer labels and watch cartoons. If it’s of significant importance, it will show up there. 

[drewpey]

2 hours ago, di1630 said:

 

You see what media wants you to see regarding Europe to help the dem narrative.

My leftist friends would sh-t themselves when the realities set in of $7 a gallon gas, 50% income tax and raising a family of 4 in a 900 sq ft apartment was the standard.

Oh and everyone has an awesome free education and a degree in art or history. Helps them when they wash dishes.

I had some dem-socialist loving relatives visit not too long ago and they got to meet with my “native” European friends and hear the realities of how crappy things are for working class and how they want to move to America.

Really eye opening for them at the time but now they off vacation and are back in their 4,000 sq ft home paying low taxes and driving their SUV so socialism looks fun again because why shouldn’t everyone have nice stuff for free?

 

It's interesting how distorted your worldview is.

Just because we suddenly get healthcare doesn't mean we will all be living in some dystopian fantasy land you have in your head.  Rent won't skyrocket nor will gas prices double.  We pay more per capita on healthcare than any other country in the world, be a far margin, and get less for it.

This is the United States, the best country in the world so why not solve the challenges that face us.  The right wants to throw up their hands and claim american exceptionalism as an excuse to not do anything about healthcare, education, workers rights, gun rights, etc.  The right loves to act like the moment we stop bankrupting families who have sick children we will turn into Venezuela.

[SurelySerious]

10 minutes ago, drewpey said:

It's interesting how distorted your worldview is  

You are correct, you are on a different planet. 

[Homestar]

2 hours ago, drewpey said:

The right loves to act like the moment we stop bankrupting families who have sick children we will turn into Venezuela.

And the left has no idea how much universal health care will cost for 325 million Americans (and whoever else we have to cover).

Show me a country giving free health care to 325 million citizens.  Then let's talk.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Homestar

[brickhistory]

2 hours ago, drewpey said:

It's interesting how distorted your worldview is.

…….

This is the United States, the best country in the world so why not solve the challenges that face us.  The right wants to throw up their hands and claim american exceptionalism as an excuse to not do anything about healthcare, education, workers rights, gun rights, etc.  The right loves to act like the moment we stop bankrupting families who have sick children we will turn into Venezuela.

We disagree so therefore my view is distorted.  Noted.  Further conversation leading to compromise is therefore moot.  Maybe try to get a job at the NYT?  They seem to like this methodology.

 

Second and related to the bolding I did to your words:  It's all fun and games if you happen to be one of those who gets to make the decisions solving the problems.  Not so much if you're a peon who gets government's will imposed.

I am unaware of many poor socialist leaders.

Edited August 8, 2018 by brickhistory
punctuation

[HeloDude]

3 hours ago, drewpey said:

It's interesting how distorted your worldview is.

This is the United States, the best country in the world so why not solve the challenges that face us.  The right wants to throw up their hands and claim american exceptionalism as an excuse to not do anything about gun rights.

Yeah...rights are horrible things.

[di1630]

It's interesting how distorted your worldview is.

Yeah man, I’m out there because I’ve lived on the economy of a country with all the awesome free health care, gun control, free college etc etc.

It’s not so awesome otherwise it’d be working and I wouldn’t have neighbors asking me if I know how their kids could get to the USA so they can have opportunity.

Why would anyone give up all that awesome free sh-t?!! WHY?? CNN says it’s awesome...it’s Democratic socialism...everyone gets free stuff..safety nets, it’s terrific.

Oh, it’s because it’s not free. It’s paid for with high taxes, fees on everything, loss of economic opportunity, lower std of living etc.

[FourFans]

3 hours ago, di1630 said:

Yeah man, I’m out there because I’ve lived on the economy of a country with all the awesome free health care, gun control, free college etc etc.

It’s not so awesome otherwise it’d be working and I wouldn’t have neighbors asking me if I know how their kids could get to the USA so they can have opportunity.

Why would anyone give up all that awesome free sh-t?!! WHY?? CNN says it’s awesome...it’s Democratic socialism...everyone gets free stuff..safety nets, it’s terrific.

Oh, it’s because it’s not free. It’s paid for with high taxes, fees on everything, loss of economic opportunity, lower std of living etc.

Not in it for the political debate.  I will, however, confirm this.  I've lived in two different countries in Europe (west and east) over the past 5 years.  Europe does NOT have it all figured out.  Insane taxes.  Humungous bureaucracy.  Ridiculous economic shackles.  It's not good.

I've also been approached by Europeans who, in the same sentence, will comment on the stupidity of American politics and gun laws...then ask how the citizenship process works and how their kids can get accepted to US schools. 

I have seldom heard of US citizens who love the wonders of European socialism so much that they immigrate this direction.

There's a reason America attracts so many.  It's not because we're socialist.

The social and economic solutions that Europeans are implementing are European, not American.  America needs American solutions to American problems.  Make America socialist and our economy, government, and society will collapse.

I can say that with certainty as I sit in an eastern European country that was a thriving monarchy and relatively democratic nation until socialism and communism completely destroyed it.  This country is a wreck now and it's been technically free of socialist government for almost 30 years, but the 'recovery' is extremely slow.  We do NOT want this in America.

[Lord Ratner]

You see what media wants you to see regarding Europe to help the dem narrative.

My leftist friends would sh-t themselves when the realities set in of $7 a gallon gas, 50% income tax and raising a family of 4 in a 900 sq ft apartment was the standard.

Oh and everyone has an awesome free education and a degree in art or history. Helps them when they wash dishes.

I had some dem-socialist loving relatives visit not too long ago and they got to meet with my “native” European friends and hear the realities of how crappy things are for working class and how they want to move to America.

Really eye opening for them at the time but now they off vacation and are back in their 4,000 sq ft home paying low taxes and driving their SUV so socialism looks fun again because why shouldn’t everyone have nice stuff for free?

This! I guess you just have to live over there to realize just how successful the American project has been. Though I'd argue places like San Francisco and Manhattan are already there.

[nsplayr]

10 hours ago, Homestar said:

And the left has no idea how much universal health care will cost for 325 million Americans (and whoever else we have to cover).

https://www.amazon.com/Healing-America-Global-Better-Cheaper/dp/0143118218

For the TL;DL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Healing_of_America

Happy to discuss the details of the many options for how to design the more effective, more cost-efficient healthcare system that Americans deserve.

But let's be real, the standard circular firing squad on this thread isn't about policy details. It's about political warfare and most dudes around here just like to poke each other in the eye and that's fine. I gladly participated more than most.

If I'm wrong on people just wanting to fight because it's fun sometimes, let's at least try to be better than using big labels and writing each other off; just talk about exactly what you mean. People on the right saying, "Socialism is bad" just like people on the left saying, "Trump is evil" isn't the start to an argument that's worth having.

Edited August 8, 2018 by nsplayr

[Homestar]

19 minutes ago, nsplayr said:

Happy to discuss the details of the many options for how to design the more effective, more cost-efficient healthcare system that Americans deserve.

I won't derail the thread any further, but I'm not convinced that any of those models can work in a country of 325 million. Again, show me an affordable system that provides quality health care for little to no cost to that many citizens and then let's talk.  I'm tired of hearing "hey! they do it in Finland!"  Too bad America isn't an ethnically homogenous country of 5 million people. 

[MooseAg03]

I believe an estimate was released that Medicare for all would run about $32 Trillion for 10 years. Government run healthcare is not the answer, we already have tens of trillions in unfunded liabilities for social security and medicare.

[nsplayr]

7 hours ago, Homestar said:

I won't derail the thread any further, but I'm not convinced that any of those models can work in a country of 325 million. Again, show me an affordable system that provides quality health care for little to no cost to that many citizens and then let's talk.  I'm tired of hearing "hey! they do it in Finland!"  Too bad America isn't an ethnically homogenous country of 5 million people. 

Well considering we're the third most populous country on the planet, and neither us nor the top 2 provide universal healthcare for their citizens, I can't give you an answer based on how you asked the question. China does it, so can we. No excuses for, "too many people."

What I can tell you is that Japan has 127 million people and they do it. Germany has 83 million people and they do it. The UK & France have 66 million people a piece and they do it. All using very different systems. This isn't just something that works for tiny, homogenous Nordic countries. We can develop a system that covers all Americans and works with the unique geographic, cultural and historical factors present in our country; it's not like some kind of impossible problem. It just takes the national will to do so.

Right now we accept, through collective inaction, that we'll all just have to pay more than anyone else in the world by far and that on average we'll receive worse care than many other advanced nations.

I've got opinions on what parts and pieces of other countries systems would work best here as well as new ideas that could help make those systems more compatible with the unique aspects of our country, but like you said, no need to derail further on the thread. 

Edit to add: looks like China has made huge strides toward universal basic health insurance coverage in the last few years. They've got almost 1.4 billion people, so I'm sure we can find a way to make it work with a measly 325 million.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168851015001864#bib0355

Edited August 8, 2018 by nsplayr

[Lawman]

I believe an estimate was released that Medicare for all would run about $32 Trillion for 10 years. Government run healthcare is not the answer, we already have tens of trillions in unfunded liabilities for social security and medicare.

It won’t matter what it costs to supporters of the system, they’ll continue to pull numbers out of thin air because on the end all that needs to be done is establish the government program. Once it’s built it’ll never be removed short of the total collapse of the government and the people at the head of the show (Warren/Sanders/etc) know this.

It’ll be no different than social security; an entity which in no way was formed to be what is is for so many millions of Americans today (a crappy retirement program). But now it’s so engraved into stone as an “entitlement” when it was really designed to be “the social protection to keep you from dying in the street as destitute when despite your best efforts the system crushes you,” that you can move millions of votes to your side or the other simply by saying we need to do something to fix it.

[di1630]

If I hear another “but Europe does it”....

Sadly The US provides Europe its defense enabling them to put more of their high taxes towards sub-par healthcare systems since again, they don’t have to do things like defend themselves or NATO allies.

I’ll start looking to Europe for solutions when they fund their own defense, don’t pay $6+ per gallon of gas, don’t steal 50% of citizens incomes etc. etc.

[Homestar]

1 hour ago, nsplayr said:

They've got almost 1.4 billion people, so I'm sure we can find a way to make it work with a measly 325 million.

Yes, the amazing things you can accomplish when you don’t have to worry about pesky things like elections and individual rights. 

Japan: ethnically homogenous

Germany: ethnically homogenous (more or less)

France: French. No thanks. 

UK: Heck, even based on the wiki article you posted earlier the British doctors told the author he should just learn to live with the shoulder problem he had. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Homestar

[sputnik]

Don't really have an opinion on this, but what does ethnic homogenousness have to do with anyhing?

[SurelySerious]

3 hours ago, sputnik said:

Don't really have an opinion on this, but what does ethnic homogenousness have to do with anyhing?

It makes law development and spending allocation incredibly easier to agree on. Suggest you read Paul Collier’s Bottom Billion and Wars, Guns, and Votes. He goes into detail on the how and why certain governmental models seemingly work some places and not others. 

 

Edit: suggest purely because they’re interesting reads. 

Edited August 9, 2018 by SurelySerious

[brickhistory]

So to the socialized medicine we already have:

Medicaid

Medicare

VA

DoD Tricare

Ladies and gentlemen, the defense rests...

 

 

Friend of the court brief:  Look up how big a deficit the oft-touted British NHS runs year after year with significant growth for each year.

[dream big]

5 hours ago, sputnik said:

Don't really have an opinion on this, but what does ethnic homogenousness have to do with anyhing?

As was mentioned before, homogenous means people think alike and thus it is easier to come to consensus and pass common laws.  If you’ve ever been to Japan you know what I’m talking about.  The Japanese are wonderful people, but most of them are not just ethnically homogenous but culturally as well.  Most act, think and even speak alike. 

Also consider this, in Japan - it is considered a grave family sin to be a dead beat in society.  You won’t see many homeless people.  They are all ingrained with a common sense of work ethic and crime is pretty much non existent.  Thus, things like socialized medicine and even strict gun laws work there - the same can’t be said about the US. 

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by dream big

[drewpey]

On 8/7/2018 at 4:11 PM, SurelySerious said:

You are correct, you are on a different planet. 

We will see.  Healthcare is one of the hot button topics that touches just about everyone.  Trump himself campaigned on providing better and cheaper healthcare, but has yet to deliver on that promise.  His actions against the mandate has caused the ACA price to rise, and his words suggest he wants it to completely collapse, which doesn't provide a lot of comfort to constituents who rely on it.  He has made some progress on drug prices with generics and possibly medicare negotiations, but overall has failed to live up to his own hype.  I think this topic will push more voters to the polls this year, but we will see.

[drewpey]

5 hours ago, brickhistory said:

So to the socialized medicine we already have:

Medicaid

Medicare

VA

DoD Tricare

Ladies and gentlemen, the defense rests...

 

 

Friend of the court brief:  Look up how big a deficit the oft-touted British NHS runs year after year with significant growth for each year.

Perfect is the enemy of good.  While these systems aren't perfect, they are often better than what people have.

So how would you fix our broken healthcare system?

[brickhistory]

16 minutes ago, drewpey said:

Perfect is the enemy of good.  While these systems aren't perfect, they are often better than what people have.

So how would you fix our broken healthcare system?

I'm not doing your homework.  You want it changed, you propose your solutions complete with how it's funded.

I've got popcorn to make...

Edited August 9, 2018 by brickhistory