F-16s from Hill to Holloman

[Smokin]

It's official, two more squadrons to the middle of a desert for an undetermined amount of time.  Best part of the article:   “In choosing to relocate these F-16 squadrons to Holloman Air Force Base, the Air Force has made a decision that will enormously benefit our national security, our service-members and their families, and New Mexico’s economy,” Udall (NM Senator) said in a press release. 

 

Wait, here's a more accurate version:  “In choosing to relocate these F-16 squadrons to Holloman Air Force Base, the Air Force has made a decision that will enormously benefit our national security, our service-members and their families, and New Mexico’s economy,"

 

Good thing we have plenty of fighter pilots, it only took almost a dozen guys 7-day opting orders from Luke to Holloman before some guys didn't/couldn't 7-day it.  Mind blowing the senator has the balls to say that this decision will enormously benefit our members and families.  President Eisenhower was slightly off target when he said we should fear the military-industrial complex.  Political meddling into what should be military affairs causes far worse consequences for our country.

[matmacwc]

Psstt....Don't tell anyone, we already got a bunch of them in Tucson.

[Sprkt69]

And the fighter pilot exodus continues. But hey, aside from the shady NM politicians, the other beneficiaries will be the ANG 

[FlyinGrunt]

Wow.  And some people thought the NM shadiness ended with the Cannon debacle . . .

Edited November 18, 2016 by FlyinGrunt

[Winchester]

The fact NM is a state pisses me off.  Sorry for the Pointy nose fellas, I escaped after a 7 year tour....only cost me a career and a family....shit will buff out though. Thanks AF!

[MD]

Have the Germans started moving out as had been announced a little while back? In terms of are those the facilities they're fitting two squadrons into?

Pretty sure the existing two are in the old 117/22 hangars and ops squadron facilties west of 16/34, though I haven't seen for sure. Or are they occupying the old LIFT wing/squadrons building that the 20th used to use?

[Prosuper]

The last I was at Holloman it had F-15's and AT-38's, Yes I'm old.

[Stitch]

31 minutes ago, Prosuper said:

The last I was at Holloman it had F-15's and AT-38's, Yes I'm old.

Hey Pro-Sup, those would be fairly new "A" model -15's at that; right?   

[matmacwc]

Says the civilian.

[Prosuper]

22 minutes ago, Stitch said:

Hey Pro-Sup, those would be fairly new "A" model -15's at that; right?   

Why yes they were, the AT-38's actually had centerline bombrack and or gun. The E-3A I was crewing at the time had less than 5000 hours.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2016 by Prosuper

[Stitch]

9 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

Says the civilian.

I am now, but after 24 years mostly working Mudhens & Albinos I can throw my MX brothers some grief.  Hey Pro Super and I were in the same Pterodactyl class at at tech school.      

[MD]

2 hours ago, Prosuper said:

Why yes they were, the AT-38's actually had centerline bombrack and or gun. The E-3A I was crewing at the time had less than 5000 hours.

 

 

Probably QF-100s there at the time too. Was QF-106s still around in my time.

I don't believe the Holloman wing ever got C/D model Eagles. If I remember, they only ever had A/Bs before those left and the 117s came in from Tonopah.

[Clark Griswold]

What's really driving this?  There's a lot of room at Hill and the airspace/ranges are a plenty (UTTR) and are they moving all the other things you need for an FTU (sims, academics, etc.) or is it a split plan with studs going to Luke first then to Holloman for flight training?  

Why not just stand up a training program at a Guard / Reserve base(s) for 3 years, surge production as required and not do something that will likely make the 11F problem even worse by probably encouraging the 7-day opt?

A spasmodic flinch when a strategic punch was needed...

[icohftb]

So they recently closed/are in the process of closing 2 ops sqs at Hill and will be opening 2 FTU sq... where will the B course grads be absorbed?

[Kenny Powers]

What's really driving this?  There's a lot of room at Hill and the airspace/ranges are a plenty (UTTR) and are they moving all the other things you need for an FTU (sims, academics, etc.) or is it a split plan with studs going to Luke first then to Holloman for flight training?  
Why not just stand up a training program at a Guard / Reserve base(s) for 3 years, surge production as required and not do something that will likely make the 11F problem even worse by probably encouraging the 7-day opt?
A spasmodic flinch when a strategic punch was needed...

Maybe I'm misreading but you do understand Holloman is full up for Viper training and has been for a while, right? They have 2 or 3 squadrons there for B course.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[matmacwc]

19 hours ago, Stitch said:

I am now, but after 24 years mostly working Mudhens & Albinos I can throw my MX brothers some grief.  Hey Pro Super and I were in the same Pterodactyl class at at tech school.      

My B, PM sent.

[Clark Griswold]

37 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Maybe I'm misreading but you do understand Holloman is full up for Viper training and has been for a while, right? They have 2 or 3 squadrons there for B course.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

No - I'll throw my ignorance of that fact right up front as I believed (incorrectly) that Luke was the only FTU for the Viper.  

My comment was on the idea of transferring the Hill 16s and personnel to what was billed as "interim" squadrons - sounds permanent likely and  unnecessary as there are many other 16 bases that could stand up for a temporary surge training, with an IP program pulling from the ARC and leveraging the resources there or from there. Hill for instance where the planes and people are already based 

[Smokin]

Luke was the main Viper FTU, but other locations have existed for some time including Tuscon, Kelly, and Holloman which started up about two years ago.  Luke is in the long process of drawing down the F-16s there.  Once a base/state gets a shiny new penny like the F-35, they couldn't care less about a 4th gen fighter, despite the fact that the F-16 has, and will be for some time, one of the primary workhorses downrange.  At the end of the first year of the F-35s being at Luke, you wouldn't even know there were still F-16s there if you only looked at the base media, WG/CC calls, etc.  In the base paper's end of year review, there were nearly 40 pages of F-35 pictures and literally a single F-16 picture.  And that was with basically one super squadron of F-35s and 4 full squadrons of F-16s.  

 

On the bright side, I don't think I ever saw the WG/CC in our squadron.  Even the OG/CC was only there a couple times a year.  Sometimes its nice to be the ignored kid in the family.

[MD]

14 minutes ago, Smokin said:

Luke was the main Viper FTU, but other locations have existed for some time including Tuscon, Kelly, and Holloman which started up about two years ago. 

Springfield, OH too.

[SocialD]

It sure is a good thing they shut down the B-Course at Springfield.  I think, about the time they needed more training capacity in the mid-late 2000s, Springfield flew their last jet out of dodge.  

Edited November 19, 2016 by SocialD

[Kenny Powers]

No - I'll throw my ignorance of that fact right up front as I believed (incorrectly) that Luke was the only FTU for the Viper.  

My comment was on the idea of transferring the Hill 16s and personnel to what was billed as "interim" squadrons - sounds permanent likely and  unnecessary as there are many other 16 bases that could stand up for a temporary surge training, with an IP program pulling from the ARC and leveraging the resources there or from there. Hill for instance where the planes and people are already based 

Another issue, as others have mentioned, with pulling from Guard/Reserve squadrons is that you are asking them to provide IPs for an FTU, which would make it difficult to have enough IP manning to run upgrades internal to the squadron. A brand new wingman in the squadron can ONLY fly on the wing of an IP until finished with MQT (or sometimes if there is at least an IP in the 4 ship). On top of that, you might have a few dudes going through the FLUG/IPUG at the same time.

I don't see any positive aspect of it from a Guard unit perspective (one that doesn't already run an FTU). Maybe if it could provide enough funding to open up full time jobs for traditional maintainers/pilots/support assets instead of sending active duty personnel. We'd also need more metal.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[matmacwc]

We've got the jets, one of our little secrets down here in the desert.  We need more manpower.

[Clark Griswold]

36 minutes ago, Kenny Powers said:

Another issue, as others have mentioned, with pulling from Guard/Reserve squadrons is that you are asking them to provide IPs for an FTU, which would make it difficult to have enough IP manning to run upgrades internal to the squadron. A brand new wingman in the squadron can ONLY fly on the wing of an IP until finished with MQT (or sometimes if there is at least an IP in the 4 ship). On top of that, you might have a few dudes going through the FLUG/IPUG at the same time.

I don't see any positive aspect of it from a Guard unit perspective (one that doesn't already run an FTU). Maybe if it could provide enough funding to open up full time jobs for traditional maintainers/pilots/support assets instead of sending active duty personnel. We'd also need more metal.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Legit critiques, there is an element of robbing Peter to pay Paul but I think I could pay Paul back with interest in this case if the program (a 3+ FY ARC IP, MX and MEO personnel surge) runs for at least 3 FYs, grows more IPs first and then in years 2 and beyond to train the newly minted 11Fs from IFF

Make it the objective to not only solve the AC 11F shortfall but to grow in your RC the 11F IP cadre, as the program ran, specifically in the first year or so, focus on growing you IP cadre by training first new IPs, the AC and RC F-16 pilots ready to IP qual and in year two and beyond then focus on the FNGs to getting them their B qual (terminology check - is the the first qual for an 11F when hey go thru their FTU?)

It will likely cost 100+ million to move the 40 jets and 800 folks from Hill to Holloman, that is about 640 man years of MPA depending on the O to E ratio.  Spend about that on an activation (partial unit) of two F-16 wings with the units not inside of 3 years for their AEF rotation.  3 years, two sites, surged training and MX.  Sugar it with a bonus and the ARC will have multiple units volunteering.

Just a thought.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Clark Griswold
alcohol

[Kenny Powers]

Valid points but then we'd also get some active duty clowns sticking their nose in our business and nobody wants that haha

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Clark Griswold]

2 hours ago, Kenny Powers said:

Valid points but then we'd also get some active duty clowns sticking their nose in our business and nobody wants that haha

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Can't deny that problem