Goldfein advocating FAA 1500 hour rule change???

[Hacker]

3 minutes ago, hatedont said:

Not about the money.

*Every* decision at the airlines is about the money.

[hatedont]

23 minutes ago, Hacker said:

*Every* decision at the airlines is about the money.

You have to incentivize passengers. In the long run, those expenses will be peanuts because you can roll them back. Secondly, not every flight will be fully autonomous at the same time. They would start off with select flights.

Those autonomous planes would have Twitter, FB, and Instagram accounts. People love that retarded stuff. The loud speaker voice would be from James Earl Jones or Chris Hemsworth.

The booze makes the elderly flight attendants bearable. Might give you a nice set of beer goggles for the lady sitting next to you who needs two seatbelts and who keeps eyeballing your miniature pretzels.. 

Edited May 19, 2017 by hatedont

[FUSEPLUG]

Anybody know when this AF/Airline meeting in DC is happening? I know it's sometime in May.  I can't wait to see what this Tiger Team comes up with to make military service more palatable in this economy.  

[Hacker]

31 minutes ago, hatedont said:

You have to incentivize passengers. In the long run, those expenses will be peanuts because you can roll them back. Secondly, not every flight will be fully autonomous at the same time. They would start off with select flights.

You give airline management -- the ones making these decisions -- far too much credit when it comes to their insights and strategy.  Rarely does it extend beyond a simple cost/benefit strategy, and they have entire floors of actuaries and accountants crunching those numbers constantly.

Single pilot, remotely piloted, and autonomous piloted aircraft will happen in a flash just as soon as they are cheaper to buy, operate, and maintain than regular ol' humans are (and the regulatory and contractual blocks to them are overcome).  It will have very little to do with what passengers want beyond what they will and won't spend money on.

[Hacker]

27 minutes ago, FUSEPLUG said:

Anybody know when this AF/Airline meeting in DC is happening? I know it's sometime in May.  I can't wait to see what this Tiger Team comes up with to make military service more palatable in this economy.  

 

[HU&W]

On 5/19/2017 at 6:21 AM, hatedont said:

You have to incentivize passengers.

They won't even tell the passengers.  They'll just never open the cockpit door, and the pax won't notice a difference.

[Lawman]

And this is JUST Delta...

Not only that it's a mainline.

I'll bet if you look at Regionals the numbers would be even more grim as the hours threshold is easily obtained for an ATP within an initial service commitment.

[FourFans]

Gunna leave this right here.

https://www.skiesmag.com/news/canadian-pilot-shortage-real-says-industry-consultant/?utm_source=skies-daily-news-top-story&utm_campaign=skies-daily-news&utm_medium=email&utm_term=top-story&utm_content=V1

Edited May 26, 2017 by FourFans130

[pilotguy]

https://townhall.com/columnists/congressmanmikecoffman/2017/06/06/addressing-the-national-pilot-shortage-n2336892

 

I am floored this option is still being very heavily considered. And now by a congressman

[Guest]

https://townhall.com/columnists/congressmanmikecoffman/2017/06/06/addressing-the-national-pilot-shortage-n2336892
 
I am floored this option is still being very heavily considered. And now by a congressman

What next? Is Goldfein going to ask them to raise the retirement age to 75? Maybe they should consider the novel idea of fixing pilot retention by trying to fix the Air Force.


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[Guest]

3 hours ago, pilotguy said:

https://townhall.com/columnists/congressmanmikecoffman/2017/06/06/addressing-the-national-pilot-shortage-n2336892

 

I am floored this option is still being very heavily considered. And now by a congressman

"It is clear to me that the military can’t simply buy its way out of this problem. I hear regularly from pilots that their decision to leave is not simply about the money. So to tackle this problem I propose we take a number of different steps."

I keep hearing money can't buy a retention love and translate it into: we rather see this thing pilot retention issue go thru its' growing pains because any minute now we will have a war/a recession/some new thing that will cripple the airline industry. Pretty big gamble and good luck Congress!

3 hours ago, ihtfp06 said:

What next? Is Goldfein going to ask them to raise the retirement age to 75? Maybe they should consider the novel idea of fixing pilot retention by trying to fix the Air Force.


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He probably has or will given his focus on external levers, since it would appear the internal levers are not worth pulling all the way. US is trying to raise its economic growth to 3% a year. One of the ways they are looking at getting there is to raise the retirement age for workers. I can see some plan that wraps airline pilots into that equation. Just take a look at APC forum to see the emotions that topic brings to the web.

Edited June 8, 2017 by Guest

[Hacker]

Just another indicator of how self-indoctrinated AF leadership is; pilots are saying LOUD AND CLEAR precisely what is wrong with the AF that is making them leave, and the Generals are intentionally choosing not to tackle any of those things to help fix retention.

Maybe if we start poisoning the well for their job prospects on the outside, we'll keep them in.  YGBSM.

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, Generals.

[flyusaf83]

Screw Congress and screw the Air Force. They are openly saying the best way to keep us in the military is to manipulate federal aviation law, that was written with blood, to screw over military veterans. To make us less competitive with our civilian counterparts.

F them. Then the Fers have the audacity to say they support the troops. Human pieces of Fing garbage.

Edited June 10, 2017 by flyusaf83

[Bender]

It's amazing to see how this board has changed since I joined.

Starting to escalate quickly as well...

Bendy


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[Duck]

It's amazing to see how this board has changed since I joined.

Starting to escalate quickly as well...

Bendy


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Just wait till the pitchforks and torches come out. It's just getting started.


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[Inertia17]

There's no justice like angry mob justice...

[Bergman]

1 hour ago, Inertia17 said:

There's no justice like angry mob justice...

True!  But there is usually a reason the mob is pissed in the first place.

 

Many of us have been on this board since we were Lts just looking to make it through flight school.  Now, many years later, we have spent entire careers either getting screwed or seeing our buddies get screwed (sts) by the AF, all the while watching the warrior ethos and camaraderie depart the fix as well.  After suffering through poor leadership who spent decades treating us poorly and taking us for granted, we finally have other options.  They (the generals) didn't earn or appreciate our loyalty when they had the chance, so why give it to them now?  Fucking RUN fellas.

[Inertia17]

13 minutes ago, Bergman said:

True!  But there is usually a reason the mob is pissed in the first place.

Oh I can definitely see that, I just can't miss an opportunity to quote the Simpsons.

It is definitely concerning to hear all the stories of various screw jobs and to see how things are playing out as a young Lt right now. When a good portion of the IPs are planning to bail as soon as the ADSC is up, it doesn't exactly encourage you to press for 20. Particularly when being constantly reminded about the BRS.

[Smokin]

I keep hearing guys say, "it's not about the money" but that's a load of bull.  It may not ALL be about the money, but at some point, money talks.  The AF should find solutions to most of the laundry list of reasons guys get out, but that is going to take years.  Make the bonus jaw-dropping and you'll keep enough guys in to buy time to figure out how to fix the rest.  I'd bet most of the guys getting hired by the majors right now are doing it for two reasons, money and work schedule.  If the AF could figure out either (or both ideally), the exodus would be far more manageable.

 

[Gazmo]

I keep hearing guys say, "it's not about the money" but that's a load of bull.  It may not ALL be about the money, but at some point, money talks.  The AF should find solutions to most of the laundry list of reasons guys get out, but that is going to take years.  Make the bonus jaw-dropping and you'll keep enough guys in to buy time to figure out how to fix the rest.  I'd bet most of the guys getting hired by the majors right now are doing it for two reasons, money and work schedule.  If the AF could figure out either (or both ideally), the exodus would be far more manageable.

 

 

You'd be surprised at how much living a life without the abundance of bull$hit is worth to people and if you really do the math, waiting 5 years to get a line number could cost you a million bucks on the last 5 years of an airline career. If you're someone who can deal with the BS for an extra $30k a year (about $22k after tax) and you want to stay and make a difference, more power to you.

 

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[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

37 minutes ago, Smokin said:

I keep hearing guys say, "it's not about the money" but that's a load of bull.  It may not ALL be about the money, but at some point, money talks.  The AF should find solutions to most of the laundry list of reasons guys get out, but that is going to take years.  Make the bonus jaw-dropping and you'll keep enough guys in to buy time to figure out how to fix the rest.  I'd bet most of the guys getting hired by the majors right now are doing it for two reasons, money and work schedule.  If the AF could figure out either (or both ideally), the exodus would be far more manageable.

 

You're on to something here. There is a "baseline" pay/compensation that the AF is failing to meet for the job required of its pilots. This "baseline" is currently set by the airlines. The bonus is nothing more than an extrinsic motivator. Typically individuals solely motivated by a carrot in front of their nose do not perform to a high standard. Many have thrown around the idea of a flight pay increase, THIS will help meet the baseline. The biggest issue, and the most difficult for the AF to fix is getting peoples hearts back in the game. I'm not sure we are anywhere near getting the masses to the level of intrinsic motivation to remain to fix the problem. That said, the bonus (current) is icing on the cake for those who were already motivated to remain.

Daniel Pink's book "Drive" covers the psychology of all of this. It's a great read, that believe it or not, was recommended by 2 GO's that spoke at ACSC this year. They're reading the right stuff, the big AF is just unable to figure it out. But like you said, the bonus money is nice, but it is not everything.

[Spartacus]

58 minutes ago, Smokin said:

I keep hearing guys say, "it's not about the money" but that's a load of bull.  It may not ALL be about the money, but at some point, money talks.  The AF should find solutions to most of the laundry list of reasons guys get out, but that is going to take years.  Make the bonus jaw-dropping and you'll keep enough guys in to buy time to figure out how to fix the rest.  I'd bet most of the guys getting hired by the majors right now are doing it for two reasons, money and work schedule.  If the AF could figure out either (or both ideally), the exodus would be far more manageable.

 

Couldn't agree more. At the beginning of my career I heard people say that they would do this job for free. I maintain to this day that that comment is one of the stupidest I've ever heard. There is something about flying fast jets that causes some of the smartest people I've ever met to make some of the dumbest comments in the world about their compensation. 

I now have the comfort of cuddling with my DD214 nightly, but I get pissed when I hear borderline geniuses say that it's not about the money. Someone needs to start a workshop on business negotiation. We spend over a decade getting shat on with absolutely no negotiating power and once you finally have a say in your life and a little freedom you give a HUGE concession to big blue by saying it's not about the money! Of course it's about the money. That's just not the biggest part of what it's about. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Spartacus

[Bergman]

3 hours ago, Inertia17 said:

Oh I can definitely see that, I just can't miss an opportunity to quote the Simpsons.

It is definitely concerning to hear all the stories of various screw jobs and to see how things are playing out as a young Lt right now. When a good portion of the IPs are planning to bail as soon as the ADSC is up, it doesn't exactly encourage you to press for 20. Particularly when being constantly reminded about the BRS.

Indeed, well played on the Simpsons quote!

I would say that younger guys are in a vastly different position than the guys nearing the end of their ADSC.  Obviously if you aren't near your ADSC ending, you don't really have a choice so almost not worth worrying about a lot of the airline banter right now.  Maybe keep an eye on getting as much time now so you're ready if/when you decide to leave.  Hopefully the things we are bitching about today will get fixed in the near 3-5-7 year timeframe.  That could provide you with a completely different USAF experience than many of us have had, and I sincerely hope that's the case.  The problem is, I've been watching this ball of shit roll down hill for a long time now, and I honestly can't think of one single thing that has gotten measurably better during my career.  That doesn't give me a lot of confidence for the future, but I remain hopeful.

24 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

We spend over a decade getting shat on with absolutely no negotiating power and once you finally have a say in your life and a little freedom you give a HUGE concession to big blue by saying it's not about the money! Of course it's about the money. That's just not the biggest part of what it's about. 

Could not agree more.  The bonus needs to be $80,000-$100,000 per year just to bring compensation into the ballpark of what you can make in 2-3rd year at a major airline.  THEN start talking about all the other crap...poor leadership, never ending deployments and TDY, BS 365s, etc.  I do maintain that if the other BS was fixed, losing money by staying in the AF would be less of a factor.  Right now it just adds insult to injury, "You're going to treat me like shit, take me for granted, send me away from my family AND PAY LESS?"  Fucking RUN fellas.

[FUSEPLUG]

1 hour ago, Bergman said:

The problem is, I've been watching this ball of shit roll down hill for a long time now, and I honestly can't think of one single thing that has gotten measurably better during my career.

You've obviously forgoten about the memo that says we can roll up our sleeves now. 

[Duck]

You've obviously forgoten about the memo that says we can roll up our sleeves now. 

I honestly think they thought that would fix the retention problem.


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