Guard Heavy Unit - T38s at UPT?

[Sonofabone]

 

Long story short, I live in a city with a C-17 ANG unit and plan to apply for a UPT slot. Plan to stay local and fly heavies for a long time. I know that if you go the T-1 route at UPT you are flying heavies for your entire career, but if you can go the T-38 route you can fly just about anything. 

My question is this, if I perform well at UPT and earn it, can I track T-38s if I'm already with a heavy unit? I am a life long overachiever and the thought of not proving that I can perform at the highest level in UPT (tracking T-38s) is frustrating. Certainly, I will deal with it if I have to but I would love to have the flexibility. 

[nunya]

No, they're not going to waste a 38 spot on you just because you're an "overachiever," especially when Blue needs all the 11Fs they can build.

Go apply at a fighter unit if you want to fly 38s.  Bonus: You won't have to work with underachievers.

[Magic24]

I know a few Guard heavy guys who did very well and ended up tracking 38s instead of T-1s. Someone with better knowledge can correct me if I'm wrong, but if your T-6 flight commander recommends you to 38s I think that becomes your guard units decision as NGB funds your slot and wouldn't necessarily be taking a track select 38 spot from the AD side? On the flip side of that you could finish #1 in T-6 but if your unit says No, T-1s you go. This was a few year back when the shortage wasn't as prevalent. I think the other guys may be right as with the fighter pilot shortage it's probably a much steeper hill to climb justifying sending a C-17 guard guy through 38s. It's probably not impossible, but I wouldn't bank on it. 

[bb17]

Years ago, one of my buddies got hired by a fighter squadron and as a result tracked T-38's. Part of the way into the T-38 syllabus he managed to get a joy ride in the back seat of an F-16 during dogfighting practice. He shit his pants and said he never wanted to be in a fighter again. He graduated from T-38's but found another unit flying tankers and has been enjoying it ever since. So that is one way to do it, I guess. 

[viper154]

Its all about what your unit is willing to pay for and what slots are open. i wouldn't get your hopes up with the doom and gloom of the fighter shortage. I have seen crazier things though, like a guard RPA guy going through UPT T-38s.

[so.it.goes]

Or you could just benefit from luck...

When I was about six months out from UPT, the Guard bureau came down and said they had nine "paid-for" -38 spots that were essentially going to go to waste, for whatever reason. I have no idea how I ended-up on the distro list, but myself and eight others were emailed and asked if we wanted a part of it. After some soul-searching I declined (and have NEVER regretted it).

Saw another situation occur where two Guard guys (one slated for heavies, the other for fighters) did a clean swap through NGB when some personal issues came up with the fighter guy.

The point is, is your goal of flying -38's likely? Not necessarily, but crazy shit can and does happen sometimes.


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[mb1685]

What are the advantages of tracking T-38s if you're hired by a non-fighter unit? An easier chance of being hired by a fighter unit down the road (is that even possible before the end of your ADSC?) because they wouldn't have to send you back through UPT? More diversified experience for civilian flying aspirations? I'm not necessarily personally interested, this thread's just got me curious.

[matmacwc]

15 minutes ago, mb1685 said:

What are the advantages of tracking T-38s if you're hired by a non-fighter unit? An easier chance of being hired by a fighter unit down the road (is that even possible before the end of your ADSC?) because they wouldn't have to send you back through UPT? More diversified experience for civilian flying aspirations? I'm not necessarily personally interested, this thread's just got me curious.

They get laughed at by all of your instructors and fellow classmates and not looked well upon, kind of like a waste of space, they belong in the T-1.  This isn't sarcasm.

 

I've only seen it once and it fixed itself.  It won't happen.

[Magic24]

39 minutes ago, matmacwc said:

They get laughed at by all of your instructors and fellow classmates and not looked well upon, kind of like a waste of space, they belong in the T-1.  This isn't sarcasm.

 

I've only seen it once and it fixed itself.  It won't happen.

Can you please elaborate? How would they get laughed at and be considered a waste of space if they performed well enough in T-6 to be recommended to a 38. I would think that's proving yourself worthy regardless if he was originally selected by a heavy unit.  If a guard heavy guy ends up wanting a 38 and is good enough I would assume he now has the itch for fighters he didn't originally have, and would seek out a fighter squadron and hopefully get picked up on their manning doc. 

[Stoker]

14 minutes ago, tk1313 said:

Kind of seems like ulterior motive doesn't it? Like that person wanted to use the unit that hired them to send them to UPT as a safety net, then turn their back on them and try to track fighters. I'd be very surprised if that type of manipulation didn't land the student in RPA (or whatever airframe they least desire) for a long time.

Now, getting recommended to T-38's is a whole different ballgame. This is why they ask the hypotheticals during interviews.

Isn't having gone through T-38s strictly better than T-1s, from a pilot's perspective? I've been selected by a Reserve heavy squadron, but if the opportunity to track T-38s came up I'd leap at it, just because it gives you better options ten years down the road (and, even if you're totally happy with heavies over fighters, as I am, who doesn't want to fly fighters a little bit?).

[tk1313]

1 minute ago, sforron said:

Isn't having gone through T-38s strictly better than T-1s, from a pilot's perspective? I've been selected by a Reserve heavy squadron, but if the opportunity to track T-38s came up I'd leap at it, just because it gives you better options ten years down the road (and, even if you're totally happy with heavies over fighters, as I am, who doesn't want to fly fighters a little bit?).

You know I'm not the expert, just giving my opinion/perspective. I'd listen to matmac and the others above who have seen the outcomes...

[so.it.goes]

They get laughed at by all of your instructors and fellow classmates and not looked well upon, kind of like a waste of space, they belong in the T-1.  This isn't sarcasm.
 
I've only seen it once and it fixed itself.  It won't happen.

The guy in our class who switched to -38's, despite being a heavy guy, DESTROYED everyone (it was not close), finished first overall in the class, and apparently outflew several pointy-nose instructors.

He did so well the leadership was trying to figure out how to get him a fighter billet, so who knows what could happen? Small sample size and all that.

[herkbum]

Well, this should get interesting


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[Bobsan]

@sonofabone don't be discouraged, things are changing in the Air Force with the 11F shortage:

https://www.duffelblog.com/2017/02/fighter-pilot-shortage-results-in-recruitment-of-average-looking-uncool-people/

[Sonofabone]

Now that the flames are well stoked, I'll provide some more perspective on why I am asking the question. Do I plan to abandon my unit down the road for fighters? No. Why not apply to a fighter unit? I am. Why ask the damn question then? 

I am well established in my current city, married, have a solid civi job, own a house, and dont really want to move (hence why the Guard). Therefore, my first pick (and probably best shot at getting a UPT slot) is to fly for the local guard unit which happens to fly heavies. 

With no plans to leave, I know I will probably never fly fighters in my career, but would LOVE to have the chance to fly them for a period of time even if it is just for Phase 3 of UPT. Sure, it gives me the flexibility down the road to possibly transfer should the wife get a life changing job offer somewhere else but that is not my motivation.

[Sonofabone]

@bobsan thanks for sharing. Now I have hope, just need to make sure i get those leg days in!

[Fast_N_Low135]

Yes it is possible, I am a living breathing example of this...here's how it happened (WARNING, not to be used as a template of what you should do).

I was a prior enlisted crew chief that was hired in house by my heavy unit.  While in T-6s I performed towards the top of my class.  My T-6 flight commander made everyone fill out a track select dream sheet (yes, even me thought I knew I was headed for T-1s).  Being the punk smart-ass LT that I was, I racked T-38, UH-1, T-44 then T-1 in that order.  Five minutes after handing in the dream sheet I was called into the Flight Commanders office to redo it.  After some back and forth discussion, my Flt CC picked up the phone to the NGB to see what he could make happen.  The day of track select I was called to the DOs office and put on a 3-way (sts) phone call with my home heavy unit and the NGB.  It was decided that I could track T-38s, with the understanding that I go back to my heavy unit and if I struggled and washed out of T-38s, I was done.  So that night, everyone was surprised when a T-38 came up on the screen instead of the T-1.  (Don't worry, it was an NGB funded slot, I did not take it away from an AD stud).

Fast forward a few months into T-38s...I was the red-headed step child of the class, but towards the top in performance.  After being approached by several IP and my Flt CC telling me I should fly fighters, I made a difficult phone call back to my sponsor unit asking for their blessing.  They said go forth and look for a fighter unit up until my Altus dates, at which point I'd be committed to heavies.  I interviewed to 2 units the weekend after assignment night and was officially hired by my #1 choice the weekend prior to graduation.  

During IFF/B-Course , I found out that big blue was looking to get rid of our jets (and other units as well), which eventually happened after flying the jet for 1.5 yrs.  Being an inexperienced fighter dude (in a then dying airframe) during sequestration, it was difficult finding a unit to hire me and send me to another B-course.  Staring down the barrel of RPA class dates, I pulled the trigger and was hired back by the heavy unit that sent me to UPT.  The end.

BL.  Bust your ass, luck and timing (my Flt CCs, IPs, and home unit were awesome and extremely supportive), don't go behind your sponsoring units back (I didn't call a fighter unit until I received a blessing), and have a good attitude and my thankful and happy wherever you end up. 

[Day Man]

[tk1313]

"Don't go behind your sponsoring units back" - wise words IMHO

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by tk1313

[bb17]

2 hours ago, tk1313 said:

"Don't go behind your sponsoring units back" - wise words IMHO

 

That should go without needing to be said but apparently it is a real problem. I've spoken to a few people who said their strategy would be to use a heavy unit to get their foot in the door to UPT and then somehow switch to a fighter track. I know of a couple people who got burned trying to play that game. Some of the posts in this thread do show some of the unique situations that could allow for T-38's to happen though! 

[F16Rooster]

Is it possible?  Yes.  Will it provide more options in the future?  No. 

And I don't think you have a solid grasp of the -38/T-1 thing.  I definitely wouldn't say that one track is "better" than the other.  Just focuses on a different skill-set. 

I understand why a heavy unit would want you to go to T-1s (they risk losing you to a fighter unit at the end of -38s) but I recommend to our guys to go -38s if they can for the sole reason that formation in that setting is the most fun you can have with your pants on and you'll never get to do it again once you're out of UPT. 

[EvilEagle]

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 8:55 PM, Ho Lee Fuk said:

Just a word of warning to guys reading this thread:  there is a tendency on this site to massively overestimate the value of flying T-38s in UPT.  People use terms like T-38 "qual, " "CAF Asset," or "fighter."  There's no T-38 qual, AETC students are just that, and it's a trainer aircraft.  It has no weapons, and the most "tactical" thing they do in UPT is practice rudimentary formation flying. 

If you're a guard guy that's doing well and want to pursue a change to a different unit that flies fighters, great.  As previously mentioned, it's been done before, ...while at UPT.  But this notion that having accumulated ~90 hours of instruments, TP stalls, and hook turns in a T-38 will give you, as a heavy guy, "flexibility down the road" is a bit of a falsehood.  

 

After pilot training, a student has to go to IFF, FTU, and MQT.  That's another year or more of training, just to claim the baseline title of "inexperienced wingman."  If you fly heavies for several years and then get picked up by a fighter guard unit, you will still have to go to a T-38 spin-up course (~35 rides) to re-teach you how to fly the thing before starting IFF.

THIS. 

 

Lots and lots of this. 

 

When we hire guys you are either a previous fighter guy (11F AFSC at some point in your career) or you aren't.  A 5 year C-5 guy would be on the same board as a civilian off the street. 

[motox3005]

I'm a guard KC-135 guy who went 38's because there was a slot and I did well in t-6's. Wouldn't trade the experience in the 38 for anything. PM me if you need info...


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[motox3005]

They get laughed at by all of your instructors and fellow classmates and not looked well upon, kind of like a waste of space, they belong in the T-1.  This isn't sarcasm.
 
I've only seen it once and it fixed itself.  It won't happen.

What?!


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[SPAWNmaster]

We had a guy while I was in primary at END, was a guard heavy dude...did exceptionally well in T6s and was offered the chance to fly 38's. The decision went up to his guard unit who declined. So aside from all the other comments here about what is/isn't possible I've personally seen it come up although in this case didn't work out.