Vance OG/CC bans alcohol

[Guest]

Anyone know if Crappy's, Callahan's, or Scooters is open to outside investors?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bowser36]

15 minutes ago, BeerMan said:

1. No it won't. I've seen/been thru multiple groundings, roll call has been cancelled more times than I can remember, seen multiple DUIs in my Squadrons, and I've endured numerous "periods of reflection" usually thanks to other services and it all worked out. Was I pissed? You bet, but looking back on a lot of it usually someone screwed up bad and something needed to be done to get everyone's attention. None of those things went on forever, and people adjusted their plans and hopefully learned from it.

Well, it's not going to help morale. Most officers are responsible enough to not make career altering piss poor decisions while intoxicated. I hate punishing the masses for the choices of a few.

The club on Friday nights during UPT were some of the best times in my career. Don't underestimate the power of comradery and tradition in keeping people motivated. Shame these dudes will miss out. Glad our newest pilots are getting to see a great example of leadership.

[tac airlifter]

38 minutes ago, BeerMan said:

Almost all of us are opposed to the "one mistake and everyone wears diapers" but where do you draw the line? That's a serious question.

What would you guys do?

Good question, and this is the only reason I come to the forum: to discuss ideas and improve myself.  Not for the latest gossip at an AETC base.

what would I do?  

1. Make the rules clear: drinking until you get an ARI is unsat.

2. Explain why the rules relate to the mission, and aren't just rules for rules sake. ARIs mean you have shitty judgement.  Shitty judgement means I don't want to sign orders with you as the A code because I can't trust you.  Importantly, this logic won't work with every rule.  "You can't wear a reflective belt, you can't hack a combat mission" is bullshit because there's no correlation between the two.  However "you can't handle your liquor or know you own limits or plan a backup plan, therefore I can't trust your mission judgement" is completely plausible.

3. Once you do those two, which most commanders already are doing, crush violators.  Explain in public what happened and why you gave that punishment.  

Thats it.  I don't think this is cosmic.  The vagueness surrounding details of mass punishments dilute their utility.  People need an obvious connection between what happened and the consequences.  It needs to make sense.  For example "To all IPs: 5 IPs got hammered at drop night and, with the full knowledge of their peers, drove home.  That's unsat and drinking is curtailed in my facilities on my time until I'm given your plan to take care of each other and prevent this threat to our mission."  Totally valid.

 But this lacks detail required to connect cause and effect and is consequently being mocked.  Mass punishment is almost never a good idea.  The occasions are incredibly rare.  The only way it could ever achieve the intended outcome is with clarity.  I need a lot of details before I'm going to buy-in to the idea that what someone else did was my fault.  Sure it's possible.  Prove it first.

[08Dawg]

If he wants to say "No drinking in OG controlled buildings"...fine...but I wonder a) what defines an "off base...semi-official function" and b) how well that order would stand up in court?  This isn't Japan or Korea...

[Herk Driver]

For example "To all IPs: 5 IPs got hammered at drop night and, with the full knowledge of their peers, drove home.  That's unsat and drinking is curtailed in my facilities on my time until I'm given your plan to take care of each other and prevent this threat to our mission."  Totally valid.

Sounds a lot like 3-5 Ops Grp DUIs in a month or so long period and now drinking is prohibited, with limited exception, by OG personnel until further notice.

I've experienced similar while stationed at ETAR and the Ops Grp was the only unit getting DUIs and lots of them. The edict in that case was by the Sq CC.

This may not be your or my preferred solution but it sounds a lot like the OG CC feels like he needs to get people's attention. Not sure what he has done up to this point since this is the only email published.


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[WTFAF]

Importantly, this logic won't work with every rule.  "You can't wear a reflective belt, you can't hack a combat mission" is bullshit because there's no correlation between the two.  However "you can't handle your liquor or know you own limits or plan a backup plan, therefore I can't trust your mission judgement" is completely plausible.

Both of those statements are bullshit. Someone's going to get shitfaced on a mission?

Think about a professional athelete who does something stupid in his/her off-time. They usually get a fine or suspension but their ability or judgment on the field or court or whatever isn't called into question. And the whole team doesn't have to wear diapers.

[BashiChuni]

9 minutes ago, WTFAF said:

 

Both of those statements are bullshit. Someone's going to get shitfaced on a mission?

Think about a professional athelete who does something stupid in his/her off-time. They usually get a fine or suspension but their ability or judgment on the field or court or whatever isn't called into question. And the whole team doesn't have to wear diapers.

disagree both his statements are 100% logical

 

[Guardian]

Have a sit down and drink them all under the table producing a two day hangover for them, while giving them mandatory duties that you help with during said hangover. Give them desk drawer paper work. Make them go through all of the programs the AF already has in place. Probably lose some credibility during track select/drop night. Then if they haven't cleaned up their act by then make the paper work non desk drawer. Give them the least desirable airframe on their list. And move on. Or punish a couple other 1000 or so people for the mistakes of a few. WWROD (Robin Olds)?


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[matmacwc]

It would look better coming from the WG/CC and apply to the whole wing, we are all in this together right?

[Guardian]

But then the WG/CC couldn't drink!


Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[Bode]

It would look better coming from the WG/CC and apply to the whole wing, we are all in this together right?

From having worked for their Wing CC twice I don't think he believes in the "everyone wears a diaper" mentality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[drewpey]

2 hours ago, 08Dawg said:

If he wants to say "No drinking in OG controlled buildings"...fine...but I wonder a) what defines an "off base...semi-official function" and b) how well that order would stand up in court?  This isn't Japan or Korea...

In court?  LOL.  Dude this is the military...it's called an order, and it can be a lot worse, even here stateside.

Having seen several of these memos written for similar issues, this one still allows for plenty of leeway, and isn't written to "get people". As long as you aren't sending out the invite via a .mil address, you should be fine.  If morale drops it speaks volumes for the CGO mafia there than it does for the leadership.  Coordinate house parties and make sure people don't drink and drive.  Socialize. Have fun.  It's really easy.  One day you will look back on these days and wonder why you spent so much time getting your panties in a wad over the most minor of inconveniences.

His mission is to produce pilots for the air force, and by the sounds of it people are fucking with the mission.  Your mission is to get you and your bros through UPT with a clean record.  Do your job.

[Fuzz]

2 hours ago, WTFAF said:

 

Both of those statements are bullshit. Someone's going to get shitfaced on a mission?

Think about a professional athelete who does something stupid in his/her off-time. They usually get a fine or suspension but their ability or judgment on the field or court or whatever isn't called into question. And the whole team doesn't have to wear diapers.

 

Except an athlete isn't responsible for life and death decisions like those made by a pilot carrying an A code on an aircraft, especially one with no other qualified crewmember on board. What's the worst thing an athelete can do? Throw pass into double coverage, go for the 3 point instead of passing it, yeah totally the same thing as flying an aircraft.

[Fuzz]

3 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Thats it.  I don't think this is cosmic.  The vagueness surrounding details of mass punishments dilute their utility.  People need an obvious connection between what happened and the consequences.  It needs to make sense.  For example "To all IPs: 5 IPs got hammered at drop night and, with the full knowledge of their peers, drove home.  That's unsat and drinking is curtailed in my facilities on my time until I'm given your plan to take care of each other and prevent this threat to our mission."  Totally valid.

I think you hit the nail the head here, there's no correlation. Just some vague statement that people screwed up and so everyone has to wear diapers. Had he come out and said the above I think it would be viewed differently.

[Guest]

In court?  LOL.  Dude this is the military...it's called an order, and it can be a lot worse, even here stateside.
Having seen several of these memos written for similar issues, this one still allows for plenty of leeway, and isn't written to "get people". As long as you aren't sending out the invite via a .mil address, you should be fine.  If morale drops it speaks volumes for the CGO mafia there than it does for the leadership.  Coordinate house parties and make sure people don't drink and drive.  Socialize. Have fun.  It's really easy.  One day you will look back on these days and wonder why you spent so much time getting your panties in a wad over the most minor of inconveniences.
His mission is to produce pilots for the air force, and by the sounds of it people are ing with the mission.  Your mission is to get you and your bros through UPT with a clean record.  Do your job.

Does your tongue taste like butthole right now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flyusaf83]

2 hours ago, drewpey said:

In court?  LOL.  Dude this is the military...it's called an order, and it can be a lot worse, even here stateside.

Having seen several of these memos written for similar issues, this one still allows for plenty of leeway, and isn't written to "get people". As long as you aren't sending out the invite via a .mil address, you should be fine.  If morale drops it speaks volumes for the CGO mafia there than it does for the leadership.  Coordinate house parties and make sure people don't drink and drive.  Socialize. Have fun.  It's really easy.  One day you will look back on these days and wonder why you spent so much time getting your panties in a wad over the most minor of inconveniences.

His mission is to produce pilots for the air force, and by the sounds of it people are ing with the mission.  Your mission is to get you and your bros through UPT with a clean record.  Do your job.

Sorry dude, but this is asinine. You are excusing awful leadership by essentially saying that it's not that hard for the hundreds of affected people to work around the issue. That's a freaking cop-out.

Here's the thing... I don't even drink. However, I respect the place that things like squadron bars and beer lights have in our culture.  When I was a UPT Flt/CC, my favorite part of the week was turning the beer light on on Friday afternoons, and all the IPs and studs sitting around drinking a couple, talking trash on each other, and sharing lessons learned. It sickens me that that isn't an option now. Yeah, we can probably get creative... but just why in hell should I have to?  I never had a stud or IP in my flight get out of control or attempt to drink and drive after a beer-light Friday. But guess what? If that would have happened, I would have been there and been able to intervene. This new policy would have made that harder if the event would have been off base somewhere where I have less ability to control the situation.

Leadership, especially at the O-6 level, should exist to creatively finding ways to make the job easier and better for the folks hacking the mish.  Not adding barriers and challenges.  I get that some individuals probably screwed up.  Ok, deal with them.  Harshly if it's deserved. But you don't deal with it by dumping a policy like this on the hundreds of people who don't deserve it. Unless you want to alienate yourself, as a leader, and create distrust between you and your people. And then he has the audacity to give the only blanket waiver to the freaking O-6 promotion party?  Are you kidding me?  You couldn't put yourself on an island quicker if you tried.  This was handled in the worst way possible and reflects poorly on how the AF chooses and grooms leadership.  Maybe at one point this OG/CC was a solid guy.  But something has obviously changed, if that is so.  And I see that happening all the time as guys move past a certain level.  It's a shame.

The AF excels at turning good officers and pilots into pompous, arrogant, aloof douchebags. 

 

 

[tac airlifter]

8 hours ago, WTFAF said:

 

Both of those statements are bullshit. Someone's going to get shitfaced on a mission?

Think about a professional athelete who does something stupid in his/her off-time. They usually get a fine or suspension but their ability or judgment on the field or court or whatever isn't called into question. And the whole team doesn't have to wear diapers.

 

So the question was: where do you draw the line?  Implied in the question was that past some threshold of events, mass punishments are acceptable.  My reply was the threshold is not a number, but rather an obvious connection between cause & effect.  Mass punishments don't work unless I can be convinced your fuck up is my fault.  I guess your reply is there is no threshold?  Anything goes WRT behavior so long as you fly a good mission?

well, it's the Internet so, enjoy whatever opinion you'd like.  However, in the real world there is a zero percent chance of that COA being adopted by anyone.  BTW, re-read your own statement.  What do you think a suspension is, if not proof that management has linked your personal failings to potential risk during a game?  It's the sports equivalent of my third point.

[tac airlifter]

8 hours ago, Herk Driver said:

Sounds a lot like.......

 but it sounds a lot like........Not sure what he has done up to this point since this is the only email published.

Herc I understand the calculations of this commander.  But since a line IP  has no idea exactly what happened to precipitate his edict, how are the masses to make a connection?  What is the average IP supposed to do differently to fix this?  If leadership can't tell you how to fix it, then we are left to simply endure.  That isn't leadership.  Your point that this calculation is common in the AF, combined with my point that this behavior isn't actually leadership at all proves exactly why the AF is so completely fucked as an organization right now.  

 

[pawnman]

So, no alcohol in OG controlled buildings or on-base by OG personnel...so all the parties move off-base, out of sight from OG leadership.  No way that can go wrong.

[Snooter]

10 hours ago, 08Dawg said:

If he wants to say "No drinking in OG controlled buildings"...fine...but I wonder a) what defines an "off base...semi-official function" and b) how well that order would stand up in court?  This isn't Japan or Korea...

First off; this was exactly what I was thinking.  "Semi-official function?"  Is that like, "hey everyone, we're getting together over at my place for opening day..."?  

 

Also I wonder how the Vance commander's club card pitch is working out now a days...

[Bowser36]

7 hours ago, drewpey said:

...One day you will look back on these days and wonder why you spent so much time getting your panties in a wad over the most minor of inconveniences...

Dude, it is a big deal. He's taking away one of the best things about the Air Force and one of the things that differentiates us from other organizations. It may sound crazy, but hanging out in the bar with the bro's is one of the things that makes a 70 hour work week palatable. I feel bad for you if your community has lost that tradition. If all I can do is fly planes and go home, I might as well work for Delta- a lot more money and a lot less BS.

[HU&W]

8 hours ago, drewpey said:

As long as you aren't sending out the invite via a .mil address, you should be fine.  If morale drops it speaks volumes for the CGO mafia there than it does for the leadership.  Coordinate house parties and make sure people don't drink and drive.

So, like a semi-official planned gathering?

[HeloDude]

2 hours ago, tac airlifter said:

Herc I understand the calculations of this commander.  But since a line IP  has no idea exactly what happened to precipitate his edict, how are the masses to make a connection?  What is the average IP supposed to do differently to fix this?  If leadership can't tell you how to fix it, then we are left to simply endure.  That isn't leadership.  Your point that this calculation is common in the AF, combined with my point that this behavior isn't actually leadership at all proves exactly why the AF is so completely fucked as an organization right now.  

 

All the line IPs knew what happened and why he did what he did.  It's fine to disagree with what leadership does, but this wasn't a shocker to the IPs...

[Herk Driver]

All the line IPs knew what happened and why he did what he did.  It's fine to disagree with what leadership does, but this wasn't a shocker to the IPs...

That's what I figured and hopefully you are correct. Without being at Vance this is an academic argument ...no email is going to lay out specifics since those are best covered at CC calls or other forums.

Sent from my iPhone using Baseops Network Forums

[flyusaf83]

Any current Vance IPs care to add some context?