Logging hours for airline app

[IMUA]

If the end game is to end up at the airlines; can F-15 WSOs log their backseat time to add to their total time? What is needed prior to officially logging that precious (PIC) time?

The F-15 is the only jet that affords CSOs actual "stick time" right?

Edited March 18, 2017 by IMUA

[Bobby]

From my recollection most airline applications specifically say to not include WSO/RIO/NAV time. To be sure you'll need to check each airline's specifics on airline apps/pilot credentials.


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[Guardian]

Or RPA time I would imagine.


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[Hacker]

6 hours ago, IMUA said:

If the end game is to end up at the airlines; can F-15 WSOs log their backseat time to add to their total time? What is needed prior to officially logging that precious (PIC) time?

The F-15 is the only jet that affords CSOs actual "stick time" right?

No.

Airlines consider PIC time as time in which you "signed for the airplane", so there will never be a time that the 'pitter's name is in the FP/MP/IP column on the signout sheet at the ops desk.

You might hear about WSOs and RIOs from back in the day being able to convert their back seat time into pilot time, but those days are unfortunately long gone.  If you want to fly professionally after the Air Force, either buy an airplane and fly on the side to build hours, or hit up the Aero Club.

[IMUA]

On 3/18/2017 at 5:17 AM, Hacker said:

No.

Airlines consider PIC time as time in which you "signed for the airplane", so there will never be a time that the 'pitter's name is in the FP/MP/IP column on the signout sheet at the ops desk.

You might hear about WSOs and RIOs from back in the day being able to convert their back seat time into pilot time, but those days are unfortunately long gone.  If you want to fly professionally after the Air Force, either buy an airplane and fly on the side to build hours, or hit up the Aero Club.

Alright. No PIC time, fair enough.

What if you have your PPL/IFR rating? Could you techinically log that WSO backseat time to boost total time? 

[Toro]

On 3/21/2017 at 10:45 PM, IMUA said:

Alright. No PIC time, fair enough.

What if you have your PPL/IFR rating? Could you techinically log that WSO backseat time to boost total time? 

There's no time category that you could log as a WSO that would be beneficial.

[Hacker]

8 hours ago, IMUA said:

Alright. No PIC time, fair enough.

What if you have your PPL/IFR rating? Could you techinically log that WSO backseat time to boost total time? 

I'll put the question back on you: what kind of time would you be trying to log?

The hitch is that you'd be trying to log time under FAA part 61 rules, and 61.31 requires anyone who "acts" as pilot in command of a turbojet-powered airplane (e.g. a WSO flying a Strike Eagle from the back seat) must have a type rating.  Since many military aircraft do not have civilian type ratings available, the FAA considers the AF's instrument-checkride Form 8 to be the same as a type rating.

So...since WSOs don't get an instrument check F8, how would you explain to an FAA inspector (or someone interviewing you for a flying job later on down the line) how you were qualified to fly the thing under FAA rules?

The bottom line is, as Toro mentioned, these days there's no pilot logbook value of WSO time.  Now, most employers will see back seat time as important airmanship experience, and will consider that strongly to the benefit of you as a pilot, but the numbers won't count toward any required pilot experience.

[IMUA]

Ya'll hit the nail on the head. If there's no time to log then that's the answer I was after. I've heard rumors that guys could log IFR time but Hacker clarified it, can't log IFR time without the type rating or form 8 equivalent.

'Preciate it.

[IMUA]

Rehack...

Any PPL folks log "dual received" during T6 training at UCT purely for the sake of boosting total time?

if this is a stupid rehack my bad...

[HuggyU2]

On 3/22/2017 at 4:33 AM, Toro said:

There's no time category that you could log as a WSO that would be beneficial.

I really don't remember the details, but I've met at least two Navy S-3 NFO's (WSO's) that parlayed their NFO time into something relevant and were hired by a Regional airline.  If I can recall who it is that knows them, I'll see if I can get the details and post it. 

I also know a Tomcat NFO that is a pilot for a Major airline.  I'll have to ask him how he got his time, since the Tomcat didn't have a stick in the RCP.  

Any PPL folks log "dual received" during T6 training at UCT purely for the sake of boosting total time?

If you have your FAA PPL, I believe you can log it.  

Hacker?  I figure you might know the answer on this one better than me.  

Edited June 26, 2017 by HuggyU2

[Hacker]

10 hours ago, HuggyU2 said:

I also know a Tomcat NFO that is a pilot for a Major airline.  I'll have to ask him how he got his time, since the Tomcat didn't have a stick in the RCP. 

There is also a former Tomcat RIO who is currently a FedEx Captain.  He got much of his time by buying/owning a light twin while he was stationed out at Miramar and CFI'ing and prepping separating front-seaters for ATP checkrides!

Regarding the T-6 time as a UCT stud, I say 100% valid to log both as dual received and total time.

[HuggyU2]

I believe you'll get about 20-25 hours in the T-6.  It's all with an IP, so you should be able to log all of it.  

[Hacker]

19 minutes ago, mb1685 said:

One more quick question (or rather request for clarification) -- if you don't have a PPL, then UCT T-6 time could not be logged as Dual Received (unless the IP happens to have an FAA CFI rating), correct?

Incorrect.  Yes, you can/may log the time as dual received.

The FAA sees you as a student in a formal military flying training program, and it sees the instructor as providing dual instruction as part of that training program.  It sees both of you as operating in accordance with the giant LOA that the FAA has with the DoD, and generally provides equivalence to the qualifications of the instructor, the material being taught, and the experience you gain as a student.

Bottom line: you can legally log dual in just about anything so long as a qualified instructor is teaching it.

What's questionable is if that dual time satisfies dual experience requirements for any particular FAA rating...which it probably doesn't.

[mb1685]

3 minutes ago, Hacker said:

Incorrect.  Yes, you can/may log the time as dual received.

The FAA sees you as a student in a formal military flying training program, and it sees the instructor as providing dual instruction as part of that training program.  It sees both of you as operating in accordance with the giant LOA that the FAA has with the DoD, and generally provides equivalence to the qualifications of the instructor, the material being taught, and the experience you gain as a student.

Bottom line: you can legally log dual in just about anything so long as a qualified instructor is teaching it.

What's questionable is if that dual time satisfies dual experience requirements for any particular FAA rating...which it probably doesn't.

Awesome, thank you for the info! I was assuming the FAR would prevent the ability to log it without the IP being a CFI but I'm glad to see that's not the case.

[Hacker]

13 minutes ago, mb1685 said:

Awesome, thank you for the info! I was assuming the FAR would prevent the ability to log it without the IP being a CFI but I'm glad to see that's not the case.

The FAA recognizes military instructors performing instruction in a military program to military students while flying public-use aircraft certified on DoD Airworthiness Certificates.

Trouble is found when diverging from this set of factors (e.g. the questions above about WSOs/Navs trying to log pilot time in military aircraft with their FAA certificates).

[Murph325]

There has been a recent ruling from the FAA pertaining to this topic so I wanted to relight it. 

In light of the recent denial of petition here concerning CSO/NFO hours being used as total time towards your ATP, proceed with caution.

Has anyone had success counting UCT time (T-6 and T-1) as turbine total time? Obviously not PIC time.

In my opinion, CSO/NFO time during training should count as turbine total time. 

[Guardian]

I’d say it will start counting after RPA pilot hours count. Which is unlikely ever in manned flight.

[CaptainMorgan]

There has been a recent ruling from the FAA pertaining to this topic so I wanted to relight it. 
In light of the recent denial of petition here concerning CSO/NFO hours being used as total time towards your ATP, proceed with caution.
Has anyone had success counting UCT time (T-6 and T-1) as turbine total time? Obviously not PIC time.
In my opinion, CSO/NFO time during training should count as turbine total time. 

T-6 would be dual received at best. Not sure how T-1 time would be viewed. How much of it is in a seat with controls vs in the back?


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[Scooter14]

T-6 would be dual received at best. Not sure how T-1 time would be viewed. How much of it is in a seat with controls vs in the back?


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My understanding from my inside source down there is that WSO student typically sits up front in the right seat of the T-1 and the Nav/EWO/SO students sit in the back.


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[CaptainMorgan]

In my opinion, CSO/NFO time during training should count as turbine total time. 

Based on that logic, I should be able to claim all my hours as a passenger as 121 experience.


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