The cadet email thread

[Guest tiplax]

For the fighter roué's out there... How much easier is it for a cadet with a pilot slot to jump in the back seat if he has an alt chamber card? Is your sqdn pretty generous with this right now? Thanks for the info

[Guest Hoser]

In our squadron, the fact that you have a card won't get you any special treatment. In reality, it doesn't really matter. If an incentive ride did't have a card, I would just start my BFM fights at 17K, which is where I would start them even if you had a chamber card. You also don't need a chamber card to fly around at 500' and 540GS.

Cap-10

[EvilEagle]

I would recomend it. If we have cadets that are in town for Ops Air Force or something we can sometimes give them a fam ride. Fam rides are the same as when we fly the flight doc -- we do a normal sortie. If you don't have the card, we can't do anything but an incentive ride and you'd be at the bottom of a very long list for those.

BFM for us starts at 20k' so you couldn't even do that.

[brabus]

Really, the only rides you're going to be able to put together are FAM rides. Incentives just aren't going to happen. Thus, as Evil said, you're pretty much SOL w/o an alt card...unless you get lucky and get a FAM ride like Hoser was talking about. Your options are much wider w/ one than w/o...plus, where are you planning to go to get rides? It might just depend on which a/c, base.

[Whitman]

Pretty easy to sandbag a casual dude on a flight with the Alt card or is there a lot of paperwork and signatures involved?

[osulax05]

Talking to a few casual guys with the 77 FS at Shaw last year told me they got rides in the viper about twice a month. Whether that has changed or if it all depends on who the CC is at the time is probably a different story.

[brabus]

Depends completely on base, wing king, etc. Last I talked to casual dudes at Luke, they were getting 2-3 rides a week if they wanted it. Dudes casual at the PIT squadrons at Randolph were doing the same. But if you're at Vance, it's an unfair advantage (riiighhttt). So, it just comes down to where you go casual. If you go to a FS, good chance you'll get at least a couple rides. If you go to a FTU, PIT, IFF squadron, there's a good chance you'll get more than that.

[Guest tiplax]

Fam ride? I was planning on going to MO and hopefully getting in with the 15C's or the 16's. I know Ponch who is a wild bore so hopefully he can work some magic for me. Is there any way you can "fail" the alt chamber?

[Guest Hoser]

Actually, having a chamber card has absolutely no bearing on whether you get an incentive or fam ride.

An Incentive ride provide a visible reward to military personnel for outstanding

service and motivate others to similar performance levels and it's open to USAF active-duty and ARC military members.

A Familiarization Flight is suppoesed to familiarize individuals who normally have aviation-related responsibilities with USAF aircraft and missions and is open to a laundry list of people include foreign nationals, Active Duty, ARC, DoD Civilians, Service Academy and ROTC cadets and midshipmen, Junior ROTC, Civil Air Patrol, Explorer Scouts.

Both Incentive and Fam's are approved by the MAJCOM/DO, but may be delegated no lower than the WG/CC.

I know there is a list of approved profiles, listing what can /can't be accomplished on each kind of flight, but I can't seem to remember which one (Incentive or Fam) is the more restrictive.

Cap-10

[SCRIMP]

Incentive = ride is for you... you get to basically do what you want.

Fam = you are only there for the ride. If you are one of the pukey types...then tough shit...you are there until they finish their sortie.

[brabus]

FAM is the more restrictive...I was told incentive is a ride solely for you...i.e. Amn of the year gets a ride. FAM is a mission profile that was being flown anyways and just happened to have a back seat open. Obviously they're not going to change the mission profile just b/c Lt joe blow doesn't have an alt card.

Basically, if you don't have an alt card, you cannot hop in any back seat for a FAM ride that goes above 18k. I would say the majority of profiles in 15s/16s involve altitudes greater that 18k; thus anyone w/o an alt card will just have to sit and wait for a profile that can/is going to be flown under 18k the whole time...not that great of a chance (especially if you're hitting a base for 3 days or so hoping for FAM rides). Every ride I've gotten, the OSS and the SQ had to have copies of a couple forms AND my chamber card...it was definitely a no-go w/o one (this was at Luke and Tyndall). Just my experience.

[Guest Hoser]

I guess I worded my post poorly.

I know that a Incentive is for the award winner and the fam is an open pit, but I know there was some where in print (ACC Sup, SJAFB Sup) to AFI 11-401 that was specific with what type of mission profiles could be flown with an Incentive or Fam flight.

Cap-10

[Guest tiplax]

So real life fighter pilot Hoser says having chamber card doesnt mean squat. UPT Stud brabus says you can't fam ride without it and has good reasoning. I think I'm gonna get it just because I can and see what it does for me this Christmas .

[Toro]

Originally posted by TIP:

So real life fighter pilot Hoser says having chamber card doesnt mean squat. UPT Stud brabus says you can't fam ride without it and has good reasoning. I think I'm gonna get it just because I can and see what it does for me this Christmas

They're both correct, you're missing the point - they're talking about different types of flights. You would be getting an incentive ride, not FAM.

Something that would benefit you for a FAM ride would be water survival training. Obviously you can't run out and get yourself scheduled for that, but it is a go-no-go if you're going to fly over the water. That happens a lot here at Seymour, Tyndall and Eglin (Brabus, not sure if this affected you). ENJJPT IP and a couple of his buds came out here a few months back for backseat FAM rides. Only three of the four of them had water survival training. The fourth was going to be limited to over-land. We scheduled some over-land airspace, but as mentioned, she was merely along for the ride. So if weather crapped out and the flight had to go over the water (which it almost did) she would have lost her flight.

[brabus]

Weird. My experience at Tyndall...I got a FAM ride in a 1v1 HABFM. All of it took place over the Gulf...I do not have water survival (however, maybe it was illegal and the Top 3 et al just didn't realize). My other experience was at Luke...they were also FAM rides and I was merely thrown in an empty back seat, i.e. defintely not an incentive ride set up just for me.

How we did it was just call down to the OSS, get some paperwork from them, our cc had to sign a permissive TDY, and that was it. From there, we just walked around to the various sq's, talked w/ their schedulers and see if there were any back seats available...if there were, they'd throw us in. That was it. The only INCENTIVE I got was JETO at FT. So for ROTC/casuals, usually you'll have to set it up something like we did, thus being a FAM ride. The only incentive flights you will ever get will be on a ROTC PDT, or maybe if your casual at a FS and they're really cool to set up a flight just for you, but more likely you'll just sandbag (which is completely awesome anyways).

Toro...a guy I know who just got here was casual at SJ, and it sounded like all of his rides were just sandbags. He said none of them were flown "just for him"...so wouldn't all those be FAM rides?

think I'm gonna get it just because I can

You might as well man...it will at the very least save you some ass pain. The times I've gone, EVERY time we would have been turned away w/o alt cards. You don't want to make a trip to a base just to get shut down for not having an alt card. And if you can get it relatively easily, you might as well.

[ 04. December 2006, 10:02: Message edited by: brabus ]

[EvilEagle]

Originally posted by Toro:

They're both correct, you're missing the point - they're talking about different types of flights. You would be getting an incentive ride, not FAM.

We fly cadets on ops air force, and they are all FAM rides. I've never seen a cadet get an ncentive ride.

[SCRIMP]

With the current ops tempo of most squads, the high deployments, and the high usage on aircraft they probably are not going to take very many incentive rides.

Go get the alt card. There is a 99% chance you will need it. Besides that, just be prepared to sit in the back, hold on, and enjoy yourself.

[zach braff]

Originally posted by EvilEagle:

We fly cadets on ops air force, and they are all FAM rides. I've never seen a cadet get an ncentive ride.

I was lucky enough to catch an incentive ride in a T-38 at Holloman as a cadet, so it can happen.

I was almost lucky enough to catch an eagle FAM ride at Tyndall (thanks to my alt chamber card - GET ONE), but we were cancelled on the way out to the jet due to weather and all flights ended up scrubbed for the day. Sucko for me since it was my last day there.

[Guest Hoser]

Originally posted by zach braff:

I was almost lucky enough to catch an eagle FAM ride at Tyndall (thanks to my alt chamber card - GET ONE), but we were cancelled on the way out to the jet due to weather and all flights ended up scrubbed for the day. Sucko for me since it was my last day there.

Zach,

According to AFI 11-401, cadets are not even authorized for incentives, only fams. Unless you were cadet of the year for all of AFROTC, and you had already signed your commitment paperwork post field training, so that you might be considered on Active Duty, you most likely got a fam ride.

Cap-10

[Guest tiplax]

Scenario:

My Det went on a base visit and cadet names were put into a hat for 2 "incentive rides". Are they just calling it that and letting you do whatever you want up there against the AFI or do they not want to use the acro FAM? I take it I shouldnt ask for an incentive ride if im trying to get in the back seat (sts)...

[ 04. December 2006, 22:58: Message edited by: TIP ]

[HerkDerka]

Fact: Most cadets get "FAM" rides. Sandbagging.

Fact: Most cadets generally refer to them as "incentive rides" even though it is incorrect. This term (from the ROTC standpoint) just means a cadet riding in an AF plane. I have never heard any cadet refer to riding in an AF plane by any other term. What kind of sortie it is doesn't matter, you don't have any control over it.

Fact: Cadets will pretty much only see "incentive rides" in a white jet. The only instance I can think of is JETO in FT.

Fact: MAF and CAF assets have strict flying hour programs that are used to train their pilots in their wartime taskings. Not to mention it costs millions per hour to operate these aircraft in terms of fuel, mx, training loads, etc. There is no room built in for sorties just for cadets. If you ride in a plane that doesn't say VN, EN, CB, or XL on the tail, then the sortie is almost guaranteed to have training in progress. In this instance, you are on a FAM ride.....you are along for the ride. The pilot might let you fly for a couple minutes at the end of the flight if training is complete and you have the gas, but the sortie's purpose was not to let you fly the plane.

Question: Do we need to argue semantics? FAM, incentive, orientation. If you are a cadet and you get to ride in an AF plane, it doesn't really matter what the ride is called does it?

HD

[ 05. December 2006, 00:43: Message edited by: HerkDerka ]

[Toro]

Originally posted by brabus:

My experience at Tyndall...I got a FAM ride in a 1v1 HABFM. All of it took place over the Gulf...I do not have water survival (however, maybe it was illegal and the Top 3 et al just didn't realize).

I did the exact same thing as a FAIP - I don't recall them ever asking about water survival either. Maybe it's not in their regs, but I don't see why it wouldn't be (especially since Tyndall is AETC).

Originally posted by brabus:

Toro...a guy I know who just got here was casual at SJ, and it sounded like all of his rides were just sandbags. He said none of them were flown "just for him"...so wouldn't all those be FAM rides?

Correct - all the casual guys we have had in our squadron have gotten back seat rides on an availability basis. I misunderstood your original post as saying you were just looking to increase your chances of an incentive with the card.

Originally posted by EvilEagle:

We fly cadets on ops air force, and they are all FAM rides. I've never seen a cadet get an ncentive ride.

I think I crossed the streams - negative transfer from white jets. I gave quite a few incentive rides to AFROTC cadet award winner types in 38s. In Es I have only given incentives to active duty MX/CMS/EMS/LS types.

[Whitman]

Originally posted by Toro:

Correct - all the casual guys we have had in our squadron have gotten back seat rides on an availability basis.

Toro, under what training circumstances is it okay to leave the WSO at home? Are there certain missions or training flights that they aren't a part of?

[brabus]

FAM rides are a sweet deal for cadets...why not take advantage? But, that's some shit you getting bumped out for them...I don't agree w/ that one. In fact, I'm kinda surprised. Was there any reasoning why he had priority over you? As far as I know, ROTC cadets looking for FAM rides are literally last in priority. Weird.

[Crog]

Came across this on another board. I can assure you it's real. It is without a doubt one of the best email responses I've ever read.

Might want to think twice before waving that Chamber Card around....

-----Original Message-----

From: [edit] USAFA

Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 4:59 PM

To: [edit]

Subject: Cadet request for F-15 ride

I am a cadet at the Air Force Academy trying to arrange a flight with the 333rd Fighter Wing between 21 December and 5 January. I have my Secret Clearance and Physiological Training Card and can coordinate any AOC approval or necessary medical clearance (Form 1042). My presence does not impose any limitations on the mission; I’m just along for the ride. Any further guidance or authorization you can provide on this matter is much appreciated. Email is the best way to contact me ([edit]), but my cell phone number is [edited]

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Very Respectfully,

X X

United States Air Force Academy

--------------

From: [edit]

Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 7:01 PM

To: [ Several Names]

Subject: RE: Cadet request for F-15 ride

Here’s the guy who keeps calling up and bugging the scheduling shop about getting a flight.

-----------------------

From: [edit]

Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 6:09 PM

To: [edit] USAFA

Cc: [lots of names]

Subject: RE: Cadet request for F-15 ride

You’ve got some brass balls on you, cadet. Let's break down your message and maybe we can educate you on a thing or two.

“I’m a cadet at the Air Force Academy.”

This message should be over right here. Period dot. Cadets don’t troll for rides, they EARN them through the proper channels just like everybody else. We’ve got a long list of maintainers who have earned awards through this wing to get incentive rides. These guys bust their asses in the freezing cold and blistering heat and only the lucky few get the privilege of having a ride. Name me three things you think you’ve done to ‘earn’ a Strike Eagle ride. Seriously. And by the way, I’ve read about all the ‘hard work’ here - https://www.gdsalumni.blogspot.com/. And I quote “The learning curve was very steep this past year as I learned about military culture and doctrine in a pretty stressful environment.” Brother, you have no idea what a stressful environment is.

“trying to arrange a flight with the 333rd Fighter Wing”

Sweet mother of pearl, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. We are the 333rd Fighter Squadron, and we are a division of the 4th Fighter Wing. If you want to snivel a ride from us, you ought to at least get your facts straight. This is the foreshadowing of your ignorance, let’s continue….

“I have my Secret Clearance”

Your secret clearance doesn’t mean f*** all to us. You think we’re going to take you up on a tactical sortie? You think we’re going to let you sit in on classified briefings? You think we’re going to hang out and talk tactics with you? YGBFSM.

“and Physiological Training Card”

Your physiological training card doesn’t mean f*** all to us. Remember all those hard working maintainers I mentioned earlier? Not one of them has a physiological training card - don’t try to impress us with that crap.

“and can coordinate any AOC approval”

Last time I checked, the AOC didn’t run the flying schedule of the 4th FW or coordination of our incentive flights. Apparently you’re not familiar with chain of command and proper channels. Let me tell you what this does NOT consist of; it does NOT consist of going VFR direct to the 333rd Fighter Squadron scheduling shop and bothering our hard working schedulers. This consists of you talking to your commander, your commander talking to our commander, somebody in between giving the approval, and then in the middle of your pipe dream you will be denied your flight.

“My presence does not impose any limitations on the mission; I’m just along for the ride.”

You couldn’t be more wrong. What exactly is it you think we do here? Do you know anything about the F-15E? Do you know anything about Seymour Johnson? Do you know anything about the 333rd? Since it would seem the answer to all of the above is a blatant ‘No’, I’ll clue you in. In the F-15E, while we do have two seats, the second seat is not an empty seat that only gets occupied when goobs like yourself call up looking for a ride. It’s a seat for qualified aircrew – we call them Weapon System Officers. He is an essential part of our mission and we don’t give him the boot for guys who are looking to bum a ride. Also, the 333rd is a Formal Training Unit. That means that we train young pilots and WSOs, so to give you a ride, we would either have to boot a student WSO in aforementioned formal course, or an instructor WSO trying to teach said student WSO. Get the picture?